WAR Openers (MT/OT)

So, openers. There's currently various ways to approach the start of a fight as WAR, and many of them involve 3x FC.

The OT opener I've personally been using when my group allows for it is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjm0PAthi54

HS -> Maim -> [Brutal] -> Eye -> [Pot] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> [RI] -> Maim -> Eye -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal] -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC -> Pacified

I believe you can potentially use BB combo after the 2nd FC, but I'm personally always worried that SE will drop when I reapply it, negating any benefit using BB would've gained me.

Another opener I use for when no one wants to wait 50s for me to build it up but our BRD will toss me a Minuet is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=346UKDzD5kM

[Vengeance + RI] -> HS -> [Brutal] -> Maim -> [IR + Berserk] -> Eye -> [Pot] -> Fracture -> FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> HS -> Maim -> Eye -> [Brutal] HS -> SS -> Pacified

I used to use the manual 3x FC opener, but I feel like this one works out better, especially since it saves my healer a GCD.

So, what do you open with? I'd like to know what people are using for their MT opener as well, I've just been sticking with Unchained + Berserk + IR but I can see the benefit of using just Unchained now. Also if there's any adjustments you'd make to my opener, let me know, that first opener has gone through quite a few changes already.

I think you forgot to put RI/Vengeance somewhere in your first opener text.

The second opener is brilliant and is something I haven't thought of personally. /like.

For MT, I open up with the same old unchained combo and drop defiance for FC instead of IB. So something like:

Unchained > Tomahawk or alternatively Tomahawk > Unchained > HS > [Brutal] > Maim > [Berserk] > Eye > [IR] > HS > [Pot] > Skull > BB > [Deliverance] > Fracture > HS > FC > Maim > [Brutal] > SE > Pacified

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I think you forgot to put RI/Vengeance somewhere in your first opener text.

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Oop, knew I missed something, thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

> Tomahawk or alternatively Tomahawk > Unchained > HS > [Brutal] > Maim > [Berserk] > Eye > [IR] > HS > [Pot] > Skull > BB > [Deliverance] > Fracture > HS > FC > Maim > [Brutal] > SE > Pacified

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This is what I use as well. I've tried just using Unchained but our DRG usually ends up pulling off me. Wish we had a NIN so I could start in Deliverance. :(

Either the 3xFC opener or when the group doesn't want to wait for some reason):
SEcombo, BBcombo, HS, Berserk, FC, finish BBcombo, (pop your IR, Vengeance/RI, pot during this) SEcombo, FC, FC, Fracture.

If the SCH is using Selene, the skill speed necessary to get in that last GCD is pretty low. If no SCH, I've never gone out of my way to get SS, and as long as you are popping CDs such that it doesn't delay the usage of GCD, can probably get in that last GCD. I've also found that I don't pop Berserk right after HS. I wait until the GCD is about 50% through, then I hit it. So you don't lose time on the front end waiting on GCD to come around for that very first FC.

2 things:

1. If you want to do 3x FC manually, you should go SE -> SE -> BB -> SE (or just 4x SE). If you go SE -> BB -> BB -> SE or SE -> BB -> SE -> BB, Eye will fall off and you'll be at a PPS loss.

2. Fey Wind is on a 60s CD, Berserk is on a 90s CD. Fey Wind lasts 30s. Your second Berserk won't benefit from Fey Wind and you won't be able to get in the 9th GCD if your SS is too low. You want 470-500+, depending on ping, to reliably nail the 9th hit without Fey Wind active.

My cotank and I actually deliberated about this at length, and we came up with the two best options, depending on how many GCDs you have free time for(1 wins again at something silly like 27 GCDs):

http://puu.sh/jKcCd/19ca9fbd9e.PNG

tl;dr
1) no Fracture, shorter wait

2) Fracture in opener, longer wait

Both seem quite equal

I'm working with a similair rotation but with an earlier beserk. I'm changing up fracture timing though as someone suggested the 5 deliv stacks crit chance, will be re-parsing next week with those changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyGWRO2EKtQ

I don't favour triple cleave as you may be missing out on the lining up with other openers within the group (bard, ninja, drg etc). If you have a bard then you should always go for that early zerk, no pacification is a winner!

You can use the pre-buffed vengeance and RI on A1S and A3S with no worry. I don't use that for A2S due to the nature of the fight, however this can be group specific.

HS -> Maim -> [Brutal] -> Eye -> [Pot] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> ??FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> [RI] -> Maim -> Eye -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal] -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC -> Pacified

You have 3 abandon here, how are you getting to 5?

Furthermore, even MT you can easily do something like this and not worry about mitigation:

HS > Maim > Eye > HS > SS + [Pot] > BB + [Deliverance] > HS + [Berserk+IR] > FC + [Infuriate] > FC + [Raw Intuition] > 5x combo > FC

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

HS -> Maim -> [Brutal] -> Eye -> [Pot] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> ??FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> [RI] -> Maim -> Eye -> HS -> Maim -> [Brutal] -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC -> Pacified

You have 3 abandon here, how are you getting to 5?

Furthermore, even MT you can easily do something like this and not worry about mitigation:

HS > Maim > Eye > HS > SS + [Pot] > BB + [Deliverance] > HS + [Berserk+IR] > FC + [Infuriate] > FC + [Raw Intuition] > 5x combo > FC

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In the first opener, he infuriated before and extended with RI or vengeance.

On the second, he would use Vengeance + RI before pull. In both cases, he gets 5 stacks.

Also, as MT, you WANT to have Unchained thrown there before you build up and go into deliverance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ippiki

My cotank and I actually deliberated about this at length, and we came up with the two best options, depending on how many GCDs you have free time for(1 wins again at something silly like 27 GCDs):

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Neither of these actually work. If you start with Infuriate, and then extend at 1s with RI, then wait until the last possible moment to HS, RI will still be 20s away from being up @ the times you've used it here. The opening itself with the Vengeance extension works fine, but the following combos don't and you'll need an extra GCD or two to get to the FC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FPZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyGWRO2EKtQ

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This is basically the 2nd opener I posted but yeah you want to use Fracture while you've still got 5 stacks available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

HS > Maim > Eye > HS > SS + [Pot] > BB + [Deliverance] > HS + [Berserk+IR] > FC + [Infuriate] > FC + [Raw Intuition] > 5x combo > FC

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This doesn't work without a NIN, and in that case you can just start in Deliverance anyway. I'm also not sure if 6 GCDs of 25% less damage is worth the trade off of 1 extra FC.

You can unchained afterwards. You don't really ever just "lose" CDs, simply time shift them.

Unless you are delaying by enough to lose the entirety of it.

Your opener if you open with unchained also just goes into deliv in 3 GCDs instead of 6...how does that in any way get you more threat or damage?

You aren't opening with HS -> Maim -> Eye with no offensive buffs. You will get the boss pulled off you in seconds.

So, acknowledging that, you're now starting with Butcher's. Unbuffed by Maim, or SE. Your OT is also losing damage because of this. So 6 GCDs where Eye won't even be up, all nerfed by Defiance's damage penalty, on top of the 6 GCDs your OT isn't getting buffed by SE in his opener (where his offensive buffs are actually being used).

With Unchained, you are no longer suffering the penalty of Defiance and can put up SE first, as well as gain Maim, and not be inflicted with Defiance's -25% damage penalty.

Also by gaining massive enmity in your opener, you are more free to alternate between SE -> SP in Deliverance or Defiance. While SE -> BB is more potency, as MT (especially in Deliverance) keeping up SP is extremely important.

Here is a triple FC opener that still uses Unchained, btw:

Infuriate -> RI @ 1s -> pull @ 15-10s -> Unchained -> OP/Tomahawk -> HS -> Maim -> SE -> [Brutal Swing] -> HS -> SS -> [Pot] -> BB -> [Deliverance] -> HS -> [IR + Berserk] -> FC -> Infuriate -> FC -> [Vengeance] -> Maim -> [Brutal Swing] -> Eye -> HS -> Maim -> Eye -> Fracture -> FC -> Pacified

I'd still recommend using Berserk + IR under Unchained for the extra enmity, but purely damage-wise that would be your highest.

I find that it's often enough to open with Defiance > Overpower > Deliverance > Whatever opener you like.

I can't get behind these pre-buff Infuriate openers. Making the raid wait 1 min every attempt is awful, and it's not like you can just prebuff early and hope everyone is else is ready when you need to pull.

Dummy onry.

I personnally agree with spooky. When i open as MT i still use the unchained berserk openning. In my experience it's way too risky if you don't. Then you swap deliverance for a FC instead of IB at the end of the opener.
Usually i open with tomahawk-> unchained -> HS-> Brutal-> Maim -> Berserker-> eye-> etc. And my agro is steady.

In A3S i'm still using IB sometimes because our overall dps is better if i use IB+Equilibrium at the end of my opener, thus giving extra time for healer to dps like crazy.
But that's more like a feeling and i chose between IB or FC depending on the amount of damage i took, how many crit i got, did i have a crit adlo at the start and so on.

I like to open with Fracture as OT
Fracture -> Brutal Swing -> SE combo -> Berserk -> HS -> IR -> BB combo ->HS -> FC -> Infuriate -> FC -> SE combo -> Fracture *Pacification panda*
This opener is done without popping Raw Intuition or Vengance, and is good because it will get you full ticks of Fracture, and still Snapshoting it in Berserk.