Permit one to preface this thread with the statement that I don't aim to create a "WAR IS OP" or "PLD IS BORK" or what-hath-ye debacle thread. This is not proposing entire overhauls to Dark Knight because half our kit works against the other half which is just a reskinned Paladin (even though it should be rebalanced because frankly that's just silly). I write this with the sole intent to incite thought and reasoned discussion on one of the central points of the topic of balance between the three tanks.
This is not crying to nerf Warrior. I really don't like how Marauder plays, to be honest, but that's a personal issue and irrelevant to balance. Nor is this a demand to buff my beloved Dark Knight or Paladin, because plenty of other people are shouting such things from the rooftops already with varying degrees of linguistic competence.
Those opening statements made, I hereby accept the fact that I will like as not be lambasted for my statements here.
So, one of the key issues frequently brought up in regards to the discussion on tank usefulness in the context of both damage and end-game raid utility is the Warrior's level 38 Marauder ability "Storm's Path" and level 50 ability "Storm's Eye". I will operate upon the assumption that those concerned already know these abilities quite well, and make clear that this post will be focusing exclusively on the aspects of Storm's Eye. The other two tank jobs, Paladin and Dark Knight, only have a single ability apiece which is comparable to either; the Paladin's "Rage of Halone" and the Dark Knight's "Delirium", which reduce the enemy's Strength and Intelligence by 10%, respectively. In addition, Dark Knight has had the accusation leveled at it for removing a use the Monk job once had with it's "Dragon Kick" ability because Delirium's Intelligence debuff was overridden by Dragon Kick.
A proposal: but what if such a thing was not the case, but in fact the opposite was true?
Permit one to elaborate; Warriors have the ability to decrease an enemy's resistance to Slashing damage by 10%, increasing their own damage and that of other tank jobs and of Ninjas. However, thinking upon an idea put forth by a different forum user whose name I had not the presence of mind to record for proper crediting (apologies for such to whoever you may be), perhaps such a thing need not be exclusive to what is right now the undisputed king of the hill in the tanking meta-game.
I shall begin with the humble Paladin. "Rage of Halone" is the skill of choice, and in fact is the only third-tier weaponskill Paladins are capable of using until gaining level 52 and access to Heavensward content, earning them derision from even myself as being 1-2-3-adins. However, Paladins find their roots as Gladiators in the context of player characters, and both begin with Ul'Dah. I do not think of Ul'Dah when I think of Halone the Fury; no, I believe I think of Ishgard and her famed Dragoons. Why not, then, allow this ability named for the patron goddess of these lance-wielding terrors to grant them benefits to their own offensive? By this, I mean grant one of the Paladin's combo finishing abilities, most likely as a level 50 trait for Rage of Halone due to the ubiquitous nature of the ability pre-Heavensward and the lack of a level 50 combo ability for the Gladiator class, a Piercing Down debuff in line with Storm's Eye's own Slashing, and perhaps to compensate the Dragoon's rotational obligations instead swap the places of Disembowel and Phlebotomize in the Chaos Thrust combo, reworking potencies to match. I accept the high probability of being laughed out of the forums for suggesting two damage-over-time effects be placed immediately next to each other in execution.
Then, the Dark Knight. Personal love of the job notwithstanding, one is of the belief that a greatsword, and a greataxe as well for that matter but this is besides the point, relied in proportional measure upon cutting power and the pure weight of the blade for cleaving man from extremity, or even from his own other half. The proposal, then; grant one of the Dark Knight's three combo finishing abilities a Blunt Down debuff, likely Delirium Blade so as to fall in line with the Monk's own Dragon Kick. This grants the Dark Knight that added piece of raid utility that they frankly do not possess with their current design, as well as remove the problem of Dark Knights making Monks untenable in current progression compositions; removing the necessity of Dragon Kick from a Monk's rotation is a remarkable increase in damage output.
And as a last, optional thought, change the damage output of each tank type to that of the debuff they apply, though admittedly this may not mesh well with the jobs and is likely not going to be implemented.
Implementation of such debuffing abilities permits much more fluid party composition for end-game raids, granting parties systemic fluidity to find a wider variety of tank and DPS compositions depending upon who prefers to play what jobs and which type of damage will be most prevalent in the upcoming battle.
Please, by all means do not take this as a definitive answer to the problem of creating parity between the three tank jobs in terms of their damage-increasing utilities. Take this merely as a starting point from which to start a discussion on how this kind of balance might be achieved short of tearing Warrior's Slashing Resistance debuff from them, which almost assuredly would end as more bane than boon both to this game's balance and to Square Enix's patience with the userbase.
Thank you for your time.
-
08-21-2015, 08:10 PMEritWith Regards to Slashing Debuffs, Raid Compositions, and Tank Parity.
-
08-21-2015, 08:37 PMReynhart
That's an incredibly well written plea, my good fellow.
There's just a little problem when comparing all the three debuffs (that you partially acknowledged). Nowadays, both NIN and WAR can put up a slashing debuff. But the combo used to put slashing debuff is the weaker one for the NIN.
WAR, on the other hand, needs to put Maim for their own good, so they'll do the Eye combo in their optimal rotation. Thus, if you have both, let WAR put the slashing debuff and NIN can rotate between its other combos.
For piercing, you adressed that by switching Disembowel and Phlebotomize. First, yes, it would be strange to put two DoTs in the same combo, but even stranger to have acces to a piercing debuff outside any combo. If we suppose that Disembowel stay in place, it means that DRG will do Disembowel in their optimal rotation so it's less useful for PLD to have it. Especially since, if you off-tank, you'll rarely use RoH.
For MNK, it can work since DK is less powerful than bootshine if you can hit from the rear.
But, it'd still be strange to have debuffs that don't even increase your own damage. Meaning that if you don't have a MNK, the blunt debuff from DRK isn't doing anything. And the same would be true for a piercing debuff if you don't have a piercing DPS in your party (Less likely thant MNK, yes, but not impossible). -
08-21-2015, 08:58 PMEritAh, I suppose it would be remiss of me to not now forgo claims that I have spent copious amounts of cognitive labour in the initial construction of this suggestion. But, again, I do not put forth my opening post as the definitive way to direct this game's balance; merely as a lead-in for my fellow players to iterate upon my musings in sequence until such time as—in an admittedly idealistically scientific scenario—we arrive at the solution that all can grumble the least about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
-
08-21-2015, 09:05 PMHabien
Rather than switching a DRG combo around and effectively doing nothing to Delirium, you could have said give all tanks the slashing debuff down. You can even tie it into the enmity combo since DRK/PLD have little reason to use that right now (consistently anyway).
-
08-21-2015, 09:53 PMpandabearcat
Not even sure if putting slashing debuff on DRK enmity combo (depending on duration) is even a dps gain - its actually going to destroy their rotation as they will not have enough mp to use all of their abilities - you will have absolutely no chance to use DA > souleater, and/or every other C&S will be non-DA.
Not a good solution.
The slashing debuff thing is kinda annoying but not a huge dealbreaker. I would like every class to buff themselves. For now though WAR > NIN in terms of providing it - and you always want it. So WAR gets a spot in almost every raid comp.
The other question is for the devs - what exactly are they anticipating when they balance their raids? Do they use only the most ideal comps? Or, rather, do they expect most teams tackling savage to MUST have a comp that covers all bases?
Not saying a comp without that will have issues - but it will be harder, and if you're talking about world first or even just high end progression it may easily cost them a week longer to down without the debuff, all other things being equal. -
08-21-2015, 10:17 PMAsierid
Quite frankly, all of the tanks should have one of the melee debuffs instead of debuffing main stats.
WAR already does slashing, allowing PLD to bring blunt with some sort of shield-esque animation ability, while letting DRK bring piercing by poking it to death (Or vice versa).
This not only increases overall raid DPS instead of using stat debuffs; but it keeps WAR in it's own little niche (since they basically buff themselves) while allowing players to pick and choose what tank they want to bring based on the overall raid comp. -
08-21-2015, 10:48 PMGooner_iBluAirJGRomg wait! If shield Swipe reduced blunt resist (5%?) AND did blunt damage ANDDD stacked with Dragon Kick that would be kinda cool wouldn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
-
08-21-2015, 10:58 PMAsieridDon't let them stack, that just makes balancing worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR
-
08-21-2015, 11:28 PMReynhart
And it wouldn't really change anything...
Let's say you have a PLD that can apply the blunt debuff. MNK will probably still do DK to apply the INT debuff.
Let's say you have a DRK that can apply delirium. MNK will probably still do DK to apply the blunt debuff.
Let's say you have a DRK and PLD that can apply blunt debuff and delirium. Well, you don't have a WAR, so you're doing less overall DPS.
And it still wouldn't increase PLD's damage...except for Shield Swipe, that you don't want to use because it's a DPS loss, but that you'd use now, because, with the blunt debuff, it could be a DPS gain...
You can just increase Shield Swipe's potency for the same final result :p -
08-22-2015, 12:26 AMRhaja
Thought about it, and I wouldn't change the piercing debuff on DRG at all if this were implemented. There is absolutely nothing lost in the Debuff constantly being reapplied, and I'm pretty sure it'd be beneficial for DRG to not need to know two rotational patterns depending on PLD being there or not. Also in the cases where there's no DRG, like a 4 man or a random PUG, PLD being able to apply the debuff would still help MCH and BRD quite a bit. I also like the idea of PLD's using piercing damage, as it's honestly a preferable way to attack with a sword (target depending).
I'm also really hoping that Delirium get's changed to a copy of DK. Honestly I can't take any argument of weapon shape to determine sharpness/impact because of MNK. Monk hasn't used a blunt weapon in a very long time. Even their relic's aren't blunt past a certain point.
Edit: Also Reynhart. Unless I was in a premade group when I was playing Warrior I never saw a single Ninja that didn't reapply the slashing debuff. Even after telling them pre pull that I'll keep the debuff up it never failed; that orange icon would always pop up. If you give DRK the DK effect on Delirium you will have MNK's who have it deeply ingrained to pop Dragon Kick, and Monk's who are smart enough to adjust and get those Boot Shine crits. -
08-22-2015, 12:37 AMPraesulIf PLD could apply a blunt debuff, the MNK would not have to use DK for the vast majority of encounters. It's kinda like when you have double MNK, One will keep 100% uptime on it, the other will will ignore it completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
The only time you'd want the int debuff is during huge magic damage during progression. Megaflare, gigaflare, Flame Breath....Same concept as Storm's Path, ideally you don't want it up 100% of the time, just when the damage reduction is greatly needed. -
08-22-2015, 02:01 AMBazFamrit
I think it's fine. Different tanks have better or worse synergy with different dps. It's not always gonna be a one tank fits all type of situation. Also different combinations of tanks bring different benefits. Pld/drk for max mitigation, war/Pld for fights with more physical mitigation, war/drk for more magical mitigation. Even then it doesn't really limit or hinder your tank/dps choices. Ideally a tank would have more than one tank job leveled to adjust their playstyle to the needs of the group. Would also hope the dps have multiple options to do the same.
In the end, perfect synergy isn't an absolute necessity to complete content. It's nice to have and can make things go a bit smoother but definitely not needed with skilled players. -
08-22-2015, 12:14 PMAsieridIt would, though not in the way that everyone thinks. The main point is that it would allow for more flexibility while providing more raid dps since you can pick tanks based on comp. If you're monk heavy (for whatever reason) running DRK with Delirium (that actually mirrored DK), would allow them to ignore DK and focus on dps rotations more than if not. If they continued to overwrite it, well, that's a skill/not paying attention issue that needs to be addressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
And I wasnt talking about tacking it on swipe or for it to increase PLD damage. That's for another discussion. -
08-22-2015, 12:28 PMAlahraAt least as far as OT goes, WAR is really the best option at present, hands down. For MT, things are less this way. However, given that WAR is the ideal choice for OT and the INT down debuff is necessary, DRK is kind of ideal as MT too, because MNK isn't necessarily worth bringing over the proven DRG+NIN melee combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by BazFamrit
-
08-22-2015, 06:57 PMPhoeniciaThe way I see it, the problem with tanks isn't only that one of them is just not fitting the raid environment. With the exception of A4/A4S, PLD mitigates more damage than DRK no matter what situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
The problem is that the entire raid set up also does not favor PLD. DRG+NIN for melee is the new FoTM. Since NIN and whatever other tank benefit from the slashing debuff, WAR is just a given. Since reducing raid wide damage with INT down is more important than STR down, we're down to bringing DRK over PLD. -
08-22-2015, 07:03 PMAppropriateName8544
SE doesn't even consider this. DRK won't be balanced guys...
-
08-22-2015, 07:18 PMEritI would ask that you at least give threads the courtesy of reading the opening post before typing comments that hold no relation to the thread's intended purpose. This is not a thread attempting to tackle Dark Knight's multitudinous problems, nor that of the Paladin. It is simply for civil discourse on how, if Square Enix ever does draw insight for the game's balance from the community, we might bring the three tanks closer to equality on the issue of raid-wide damage increasing utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544
Perhaps I should rephrase; the discussion here is solely for intellectual stimulation and for hypothesizing upon a singular aspect of the tank role's balance and how it, directly or otherwise, affects the balance of other parts of the party's composition. -
08-22-2015, 07:50 PMPhoeniciaAside from what Erit said.... How do you figure SE doesn't even consider "this"? Do you work for SE or are you Yoshi-P's forgotten only child so he told you personally?Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName8544
-
08-22-2015, 09:00 PMFirepower
I think the issue with DRK, MNK and Delirium, allowing it to have the same effect as Dragon kick and thus allowing all MNK's to bypass dragon kick is likely to put a skew on world first raiding when stacking MNK and DRK suddenly become the most optimal DPS grouping due to being able to permanently crit Bootshine instead of Dragon kick. I know MNK isn't currently the top DPS at the moment but Yoshi did just mention he was looking at:
This could easily push MNK back to the top and then allowing DRK to bypass dragon kick for them is likely to entice a lot of people to start excluding other jobs in favour of MNK/DRKQuote:
First we will be making adjustments to the effect duration and effect potency of Greased Lightning.
-
08-22-2015, 09:46 PMPhoeniciaI personally highly doubt that because you'd be ignoring the raid-wide benefits for DRG and NIN. DRG brings Battle Litany and NIN brings Trick Attack and Goad. So even if MNK did more DPS than either DRG or NIN on an individual level, you can't ignore the raid-wide burst provided by DRG+NIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firepower
IF DRK gives the blunt resist down, and it won't anytime in the foreseeable future, DRK+MNK will not be more than a "consideration" against the loss of one of the other two melee jobs. -
08-22-2015, 09:46 PMAppropriateName8544Sorry if I sounded rude guys, I read the post and find it really interesting. Though according to today letter, they mentioned monk and ast reworking, but for drk only the darkside issue. I believe the feedbacks about drk are good so far making Balancing unnecessary...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
-
08-22-2015, 10:04 PMAlahraBasically, yes. It's not so much that PLD is broken so much as that it just doesn't...fit. It doesn't bring much that really benefits the raid as a whole, either. Cover's really situational, Clemency is pretty situational (and difficult to use but that's another story). Divine Veil is pretty nice but the extra mitigation probably isn't necessary. STR down has never really been a game-changer, though if they started doing big raid-wide Physical AoE's, it might be more desired, I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
The utility/benefits that DRK and WAR bring tend to be far more general and applicable to a wide variety of situations. PLD is almost too specialized, it seems. -
08-22-2015, 11:21 PMAniCelestineThis. The current endgame is based on tight dps checks and without extra gear on the dps class and pld's onGCD stance dancing doesn't really make it as viable tank for the extra dps you need when comparing drk with dark side always up and warriors oGCD stances. As you already lose 2 GCD worth of dmg when you switch from Shield oath to Sword oath and back for some tank buster, and I'd say those 2 GCD worth of not attacking negates the autoattack boost they get. Sure you could just click shield oath off, but that's still not as good as the other alternative tank's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
Not sure if many listens to MrHappy1227's 'State of the Realm' talk show I guess you could say, but there were some points in the #25 episode about the same topic and why pld doesn't fit in the current content and what has changed going from bcob to Alex savage.
In my opinion the issue is solely based on the dps checks in the content whereas the tankbusters (from what I've been reading and hearing) aren't really that significant compared to Death Sentence or Raven's Beak etc for what you really needed all the defense you could get for that one hit. Like yoshi has said (can't really quote this on phone since I ain't fan of multitasking on phone) warrior is the offensive tank style wherein the paladin is the more defensive approach.
I haven't heard of groups that'd run with 2x pld, but 2x drk or war I have and that's purely because pld, with the gear prior to being able to buy all the eso gear for every party member, doesn't allow the party to deal enough dps.
I could be wrong on the 2xpld and if I am, do point it out, but after reading and hearing from various sources about the topic I'm fairly certain that the above what I said is the cause for pld not being a good choise. Sure it's viable and a friend of mine runs with a pld along with a warrior and they're doing just fine.
Sorry if the post seems jumpy but I'm on phone and long posts are quite hard to keep organised and tidy.