Double Bard in The Vault

I'm trying to level bard but I had this really crushing experience where I was kicked from a Vault run. All the trouble started at the final boss. After two wipes we kicked the healer (for... cheating? I don't initiate these things), and then after the third with a scholar, I was kicked.

I'm fairly certain it was a dps issue, considering in most cases we barely passed or wiped on the Holy Flame dps check. I noticed the other bard was decked out in all Vault gear, and all I've ever seen in my runs has been accessories. However, my left side was all gear from the Aery, which should have been sufficient.

So... what can I do? Strangely enough I got paired with a summoner when I requeued and the run went fairly smooth (even got a commendation) from start to finish.

If whoever kicked me happens to see this, you're definitely MORE than welcome to pitch in on this, since I'm just stumped by what more I could do to pass that dps check.

healer and tank should dps during that as well, maybe the healer wasnt? 2 brds shouldn't have an issue getting the flames down if all are doing their job right during that phase.

I did my first time in the vault with a 110 weapon and augmented ironworks gear... There's no real reason to be failing the holy flame dps check unless one of the DPS is napping.

The only thing that really springs to mind is "Are you using Wanderer's Minuet?" in regards to boosting your DPS in that phase. It's not like you have to put on dance shoes like Keeper or Fractal Contiuum.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I did my first time in the vault with a 110 weapon and augmented ironworks gear... There's no real reason to be failing the holy flame dps check unless one of the DPS is napping.

The only thing that really springs to mind is "Are you using Wanderer's Minuet?" in regards to boosting your DPS in that phase. It's not like you have to put on dance shoes like Keeper or Fractal Contiuum.

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I'm fairly certain I have, unless it falls off when you die. If so, that might have been an issue. I've had a habit of putting it on then forgetting if it's there or not afterwards. Same with Gauss Barrel on MCH.

On the note of healer and tank dpsing, I don't think I remember the healer that got kicked using a single Stone III or Assize through the run.

Strangely enough, this is really the only Vault run I've been kicked from (and my second kick total since I've been playing). Aside from a comment from the healer about both of us never using songs, which I actually took note of and tried to apply Foe's and Ballad when I could, there was nothing said before I got kicked.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

I'm fairly certain I have, unless it falls off when you die. If so, that might have been an issue. I've had a habit of putting it on then forgetting if it's there or not afterwards. Same with Gauss Barrel on MCH.

On the note of healer and tank dpsing, I don't think I remember the healer that got kicked using a single Stone III or Assize through the run.

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Maybe just bad parties... but when I go as sch I just change stance and dps since there's nothing to heal unless someone stands still for the line aoe blasts. Even if a healer doesn't dps you shouldn't have a problem killing the flames to avoid a wipe unless the dps are really really really bad.

The easiest way to beat that phase as a bard is to get both dots up on 4-5 orbs then single target from there. A big problem is with healers, most of them think they can just afk that phase since zero damage is going out. When i did vault on my scholar I was usually able to kill 2-3 balls by myself with cleric stance. If you got kicked, i would assume that either the other 3 were queued together or you probably died to something you shouldn't have.

Two Bards should be able to do it just fine...something else was wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

So... what can I do? Strangely enough I got paired with a summoner when I requeued and the run went fairly smooth (even got a commendation) from start to finish.

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The most likely scenario is simply that your DPS was terrible.

That's not a nice thing to say, but you're not alone. A large number of people do terribly low DPS, below half of what they're capable of. And it's not your/their fault. There are no mechanisms in the game to offer you feedback on your performance except failing at DPS checks, and those don't do a good job of explaining what went wrong. Many people parse, but SE has an unofficial "don't ask and don't tell" policy on that sort of thing, so people can't just bring those to your attention at risk of being reported and banned.

My advice is to find a thread on "how to do bard" and maybe take an hour to beat on a training dummy by following the rules presented there. Once these things commit to muscle memory you'll find yourself refreshing the right things at the right times by reflex. Good habits will greatly aid you.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

The easiest way to beat that phase as a bard is to get both dots up on 4-5 orbs then single target from there. A big problem is with healers, most of them think they can just afk that phase since zero damage is going out. When i did vault on my scholar I was usually able to kill 2-3 balls by myself with cleric stance. If you got kicked, i would assume that either the other 3 were queued together or you probably died to something you shouldn't have.

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I'll try this. And I'll admit I was kind of sloppy about dodging AoEs during/after that phase. I'm not sure how or why, but there were two occasions I didn't see the AoE from the two knights during that phase, and then afterward I was more preoccupied with switching songs that I ate one or two of the Heavensflames. I know I'm normally better about dealing with mechanics than that, which is why I was feeling pretty bad after each wipe.

Viviza, I think the first thread I found with a rotation was about 3 or 4 pages down. Seems like there are more complaint threads about bard than anything else. Thanks anyway?

Any kicking besides for AFK and major abuse is an offense the devs should be made aware of. Try to screenshot things next time, and put in a support ticket. Get those idiots banned.

This may be a silly question, but are you using Wanderer's Minuet? The Vault can be done with 100% WM uptime, with possibly the exception of breaking those tethered chains. As someone above suggested, the best way to handle the dps check on the final boss, is to DoT a few of them for bloodletter procs and begin to single target the rest.

At that level your priorities for single target should be Straight Arrow > DoTs/Iron Jaws > Empyreal Arrow > Bloodletter > Heavy Shot.

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Originally Posted by Ninster

Seems like there are more complaint threads about bard than anything else.

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So what? People complain a lot. People dedicated to the job will perform well regardless. Ignore the whining, it will only waste your time, and pick out the bits that help you.

Don't see this experience (or my feedback) as an insult, see it as an opportunity. The people in your party did you a favour in the long run by bringing it to your attention. The bar for DPS in dungeons is low to account for players who are poorly geared and inexperienced -- if your group was failing checks that means both the other DPS and YOU were performing poorly. You'll see big improvements with some basic adjustments to your play style.

I dunno, it's hard to say. I actually had a two-bard run of the Vault. In that particular run, as Warrior I took out three orbs all by myself; it feels like balance is kinda wonky on a case-to-case basis.

Learn proper rotations for starters.. You won't really have Sidewinder at that point, but everything else should follow the guide as is. You don't really need to use foods/pots, but that's the general gist of it.


Anyways, most important things as Bard;
-Always maintain Straight Shot
-Maintain both of your dots, reapply them at 3s. Never let them drop on bosses. Also use Flame Arrow.
-Make sure to apply both dots with full buffs and straight shot on. Reapply them at 7-ish seconds to get 30 seconds worth of fully buffed dots.
-Always pair Barrage with Empyreal Arrow.
-On packs of 3 (or even 4), instead of aoes, focus on maintaining straight shot and dots on 3 mobs with Iron Jaws. Use Blood of Rain whenever it's off cooldown. Naturally multidot mobs of 2 as well. More procs, more dps!
-You can jump off the Minuet whenever you/the boss does a lot of moving. This includes the first boss when he dashes and the last boss when you get chains.
-You can cut your Minuet cast short and still land the attack (you can start moving at around 75% and still finish the cast. Practice!)
-Never double weave unless it's a.) opener and you want to buff the dots b.) you get a straighter shot proc, enough time to double weave ogcds
->naturally always use a single ogcd after cast when available. I prioritize buffs->empyreal->blood letter->flame arrow->blunt arrow->repelling shot

Gear-wise just get whatever's best for you atm in terms of ilvl. On end-game try to focus on Crit, as it's your highest multiplier side stat. Bard can still do decent dps, although on most fights you'll still see yourself outdpsd by some margin against similarly skilled players of other classes. Fights where you can use the ability to attack from range and maintain dots, and fights with clear phases where to utilize your buffs are best for you.

That's about it. Good luck with your endeavors. :)

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

I prioritize buffs->empyreal->blood letter->flame arrow->blunt arrow->repelling shot[/i]

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Bloodletter > Empyreal Arrow

Here is why. So Bloodletter is 150 potency during the 1s of oGCD space left when Wanderer's Minuet is up. Empyreal is is 220 potency over 1.5s. Effectively this means the following (roughly):
Bloodletter: 150 potency per second, 0 TP cost
Empyreal Arrow: 146.7 potency per second, 60 TP cost

Not only is Empyreal Arrow lower potency per second, it will also drain your TP more quickly which will further lower your DPS over a long encounter.

Prior to the WM changes Empyreal Arrow was 240 potency and thus 160 pps. Higher than Bloodletter. But for a while that has no longer been the case. I don't necessarily claim my priority system to be the best, but it is at least closer to optimal.

Bloodletter (150 potency) > Flaming Arrow (350 potency DoT) > Sidewinder (250 potency) > Empyreal Arrow (220 potency in 1.5s) > Repelling Shot (80 potency) > Blunt Arrow (50 potency)

Yeah everyone needs to DPS on that part. Sometimes tanks and healers kinda slack at it and expect DPS to do everything while they just watch for things to tank/heal. Without everyone there will always be 2-3 or more orb things left to cause damage even with decent DPS.

Not that big of an issue though. TBH the main reason for wipes on that last boss for me is because healer dies from the chain during phase 2 when s**t gets a little crazy. Not sure why, everyone gets the same mechanic, even BLM, but healers seem to die easily from it.

core issue is not how well one can DPS.. core issue is people abusing others and kicking for not being ''perfect'' in their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

Two Bards should be able to do it just fine...something else was wrong here.

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That "something else" is most likely gear. I've noticed that by the time you get to Vault (57) your gear is usually vastly below what is expected there. RNG in dungeons is horrible since every dungeon drops an entire palette for all classes, plus Fate grinding yields no gear at all. Sure there's vendor gear... but really, who spends Gil anywhere from 10k - 50k per piece on gear that is replaced at max level? Lunacy. And that's where the issue arises. Try going back to Vault with full max level gear, you get sync'ed down but you're still vastly more powerful than any leveling player.

This triggers a chain reaction. Tank eats much, needs more attention. Healer heals for less, needs to heal more, goes OoM fast. DPS at sub par damage, fights take longer than they should. Combine that with a pretty unforgiving final boss and you have your answer.