There's an old saying "three is a crowd" - Not enough tanks?

The same can be said for AST, SCH, and WHM. Astrologian is being left out now for not bringing robust enough heals to the party.

Moreover, the way WAR is set up it provides the Slashing Debuff giving some benefit to both tanks whereas the PLD and DRK can't really complement each other. This makes WAR mandatory in raids, almost and the other tanks can be left out, in most cases the PLD.

Three is a crowd and I believe this is a bad design.

It doesn't have much to do with the number of tanks, really, and everything to do with the fact that WAR is essentially mandatory (both for its greater performance as OT than the other two tanks and the slashing debuff and Storm's Path for progression). If PLD and DRK were both better OTs and the slashing debuff and Storm's Path could be provided by other classes (either the other tanks or perhaps another DPS class), WAR wouldn't be mandatory, thus allowing for more flexibility in tank choice.

Actually, I think it has to do with the numbers of available tanks versus the number of required tanks.
We all know that stacking jobs lowers LB charging, so it was natural to take both tanks and both healers, since we needed two of them.

Now that we have the choice, people start seriously theorycrafting to decide which one of them will be excluded.

Hmm, not really. Double job stacking didn't prevent world firsts from stacking 2 monks for the entirety of SCoB and FCoB.

People let the PLD MT because it was safer than WAR. That hasn't changed yet.

DRK came out, it is a safer option than WAR still. So naturally WAR was pushed into the OT spot.

Also WAR doing a great job as OT because it has synergy and no TP issues helped "solidify" this spot.

All of this though is a mass "stupidity" on the player base though.

Any of the three classes can OT just as well as any other. WAR is by no means mandatory. Any one thinking otherwise is just following the "hive mind".

MTs push mitigation a little over one another but not enough to disregard any of them. Any of the three tanks can tank any encounter. There is no point in the game where an attack would kill 1 tank but not the other two. The difference in mitigating any attack with proper CD usage is ~10%.

Parses have proven all three tanks coming really close to one another in terms of DPS with WAR being slightly ahead. The difference is ~8%.

This whole PLD exclusion is a knee-jerk reaction to Lucrezia and Elysium swapping PLD for DRK BECAUSE they swapped MNK for NIN for Trick Attack. They wouldn't swap DRG because of Battle Litany.

This thread doesn't help the situation, it only helps spread this misconception that PLD isn't good.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Parses have proven all three tanks coming really close to one another in terms of DPS with WAR being slightly ahead. The difference is ~8%.

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8% isn't insignificant, though. Honestly, it's probably less about the DPS that each can put out and more about the fact that WAR is the only OT with innate TP recovery options. That gives them more longevity, which is pretty important, I'd say. Add in the fact that WARs have naturally higher DPS, and there's really not a good reason to take one of the other two for OTing.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

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I really wish SE didn't give Equilibrium the TP recovery issue. It is starting this whole misleading thing about WAR's infinite TP.

WAR's TP issues NEVER EXISTED. Every 9 GCDs, WAR has 1 GCD with 0TP cost. Every 90s, WAR gets pacified for 2 GCDs after Berserk. The net result is your TP floating above 750 for most of the fight.

Using Equilibrium for TP also means you can't use it for healing.

8% when you're talking 1000 DPS on a dummy is 80 DPS. WAR actually pulls slightly more (like 1020~1050). In actual fights, WAR pulls more like 800~900. 8% of that is not significant. It's also nothing like the DPS disparity between the DPS classes. DRG pulls 1300+ on a dummy while BRD caps at 1100. That's 200 DPS and is close to 17%. That didn't prevent groups from filling 1 DPS spot with a BRD or MCH. And it didn't force groups to pick 4 melees or 3 melee and 1 BRD.

Back on point, there is NOTHING forcing groups to pick WAR as OT and nothing preventing them from letting PLD or DRK OT.

Just to show you how stupid the "hive mind" is, WAR MT / any OT is much higher raid-wide DPS than the opposite. And at no "cost" to defensiveness.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I really wish SE didn't give Equilibrium the TP recovery issue. It is starting this whole misleading thing about WAR's infinite TP.

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I never said that WARs had infinite TP, just that they had more longevity than DRK and PLD (especially more than DRK--Blood Weapon is a horrid TP sink).

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Back on point, there is NOTHING forcing groups to pick WAR as OT and nothing preventing them from letting PLD or DRK OT.

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Nothing's forcing it, no. But in progression, serious groups will seek out every advantage and edge they can get, and if WAR has advantages over the other two for OT, then they will be the preferred OT.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I never said that WARs had infinite TP, just that they had more longevity than DRK and PLD (especially more than DRK--Blood Weapon is a horrid TP sink).



Nothing's forcing it, no. But in progression, serious groups will seek out every advantage and edge they can get, and if WAR has advantages over the other two for OT, then they will be the preferred OT.

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Again, WAR didn't need Equilibrium for its TP.

And as I said, if people looked at every angle, they'd see that WAR MT / x OT is an advantage over sticking WAR in the OT spot. Not everything "serious groups" do is 100% optimal.

For your own group, just get a group of 8 players that can actually play and experiment with setups. Doesn't have to follow the whole "stick a WAR to OT and you're golden" because you aren't.

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Originally Posted by Anger

The same can be said for AST, SCH, and WHM. Astrologian is being left out now for not bringing robust enough heals to the party.

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Stopped reading there. AST is being left out because of min-maxxers trying to push as much raid DPS as possible while retaining functionality. SCH never had robust heals and yet it was never WHM/WHM in 2.0. No, AST is overlooked because its UTILITY is lacking compared to SCH.

And there will ALWAYS be 1 class that's doing better than the others. That's a given in every MMO in history. Right now WAR and SCH have got it good. They will have it good until the next balance where X and Y will have it good. It repeats endlessly.

Perfect balance will never exist because perfect humans don't exist.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Again, WAR didn't need Equilibrium for its TP.

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I also never said they needed it. I think the WAR changes in HW are completely ludicrous. But the fact is that they *have* it, and it's going to factor in to the reasons people choose one class for OT over another.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Stopped reading there. AST is being left out because of min-maxxers trying to push as much raid DPS as possible while retaining functionality. SCH never had robust heals and yet it was never WHM/WHM in 2.0. No, AST is overlooked because its UTILITY is lacking compared to SCH.

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That's over-simplifying the picture. AST is being left behind for a number of reasons. Their utility is weaker than SCH's, which is one. Their overall healing capability is lower than both SCH and WHM, which is another. The latter also causes raid DPS to be lower because both healers have to heal *more* (and DPS less). Additionally, AST is less capable in "emergency" situations than both SCH and WHM, and emergency situations are part of progression. About the only place AST is on par with the other healers is in its DPS capability in a vacuum (at least on single target)--they're about equal to SCH. But they lack the healing power and mana efficiency to DPS like SCH can in practice.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

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About the WAR TP, that's my point. WAR didn't need Equilibrium's TP. It is a point of exaggeration. WAR's TP is an endless pit without Equilibrium unless the WAR has to spam Overpower for whatever reason. Since that is irrelevant to raids (A2S and T4 being the only exceptions), it doesn't matter. People thinking WAR is a better OT because of Equilibrium is just baseless and stupid.

WAR is better suited for MT than it is OT. WAR has the most available damage mitigation options. WAR has the easiest time stance swapping allowing it to "fit in" bursts of damage or mitigation as needed. This same point leads to highest MT DPS. Only problem to WAR MT is its strict GCD to GCD management putting it at being a riskier option than the other two.

PLD on the other hand is better suited for OT. PLD's CDs are strong but they are also long. PLD has massive utility they can access easier as OT than MT. Cover is OP.

DRK is the black sheep. It suffers badly in physical fights. It runs out of TP very fast as an OT too with no options to mitigate TP expenditure. It is currently made relevant because it handles magical bursts slightly better than PLD with a 10~30% more mitigation per buster. But that nets you less than 5% overall damage taken difference. If DRK didn't do 2~3% more DPS than PLD and the majority of tank busters weren't magical, DRK would be the one out of place in current content. That is an underlying problem that seriously needs attention from SE imo.
EDIT: In the best CD rotations, DRK hardly mitigates 8% more than PLD on any single Buster. And on some it mitigates 100% less (Since PLD uses HG in its rotations now). For reference on numbers and examples on rotations: Check this post(also by me :p).

AST being sup-bar to SCHs and WHMs can be attributed to the things you mentioned. But also let's not forget that WHM's more potent multi Regen effects and SCH's more potent heals/shields along with Fairy support healing allows for less hands on healing and more DPS while an AST can't afford to stop healing.

SE gave a "good" reason why AST shouldn't heal as much as WHM and SCH in vacuum. The card buffs ARE strong. But card buffs suffer from RNG and you can't have the card you want when you want it. Furthermore, AST is hindered by far more things than just healing potency. AST single target DPS is lower than WHM and its AoE DPS is lowest among the three.

IMO AST needs major fixes. DRK needs to be looked at on different levels. PLD is fine but QoL changes are always welcome. I do not mind more DPS on PLD if it forgoes some of its safety.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

About the WAR TP, that's my point. WAR didn't need Equilibrium's TP. It is a point of exaggeration. WAR's TP is an endless pit without Equilibrium unless the WAR has to spam Overpower for whatever reason. Since that is irrelevant to raids (A2S and T4 being the only exceptions), it doesn't matter. People thinking WAR is a better OT because of Equilibrium is just baseless and stupid.

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It's not *solely* because of Equilibrium. It's Equilibriium, and their higher DPS. You're also over-exaggerating WAR's TP without Equilibrium. While they do have more longevity than PLD and DRK before considering it, they can and do run out of TP, especially since they tend to stack some Skill Speed for the optimal Berserk rotation. They just last longer than the others.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

WAR's TP is an endless pit without Equilibrium unless the WAR has to spam Overpower for whatever reason.

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That's false.

EDIT:
I did some personal testing just now. Deliverance & its related moves help a lot compared to what warriors were like before HW.

I was able to last about 8:30 before bottoming out on a dummy under these conditions:
2.43s GCD
Use of buffs to gain Abandon stacks (Berserk, Raw Intuition, Vengeance, Infuriate when appropriate)
Use of Fracture
Use of Fell Cleave
No use of Equilibrium

Sword Oath
Deals additional damage with a potency of 75 after each auto-attack.
Cannot be used with Shield Oath.
Effect ends upon reuse.

Shelltron
Blocks the next physical attack.
Additional Effect: Partial MP restored upon block
Additional Effect: Restores 100 TP if TP is <35% upon block
Duration: 10s

Blood Price
Restores partial MP when damage is taken.
Additional Effect: Restores up to 100 TP if TP is <35% when damage is taken.
Duration: 15s

Maybe? Yes, I know some of these sound bad but it's a start rather than an argument. The reason I gave a % requirement is because Equilibrium can be used as either a heal or TP restoration and not both, and you know...balance issues are a thing.

Edit: Also the reason for only 100 TP is due to Shelltron and Blood Price being on 30s CD while Equilibrium is on 60s CD.

The issue with your suggestions is that PLD and DRK's major TP issues aren't when maintanking, because PLD loses Shield Swipe and DRK has to use Blood Weapon when offtanking, which means they bottom out faster. Your suggestions are designed purely for MTing which wouldn't solve the biggest issues.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

The issue with your suggestions is that PLD and DRK's major TP issues aren't when maintanking, because PLD loses Shield Swipe and DRK has to use Blood Weapon when offtanking, which means they bottom out faster. Your suggestions are designed purely for MTing which wouldn't solve the biggest issues.

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Good point! Didn't think of that D: How about:

Shelltron
Blocks the next physical attack.
Additional Effect: Partial MP restored upon block
Duration: 10s
Restores 100 TP when used with Sword Oath.

Blood Weapon
Increases attack speed by 10% and converts physical damage dealt into MP.
Duration: 15s
Cannot be used while under the effect of Grit.
Restores 200 140 TP when used with Darkside.

Hope this sounds better. Again Shelltron only recovers 100 because of the 30s Recast and Blood Weapon recover 200 140 because it has a Recast of 40s. The TP recovery effect of Blood Weapon should be a post-50 trait, in my opinion anyway. Seriously I hope I did a better job this time on coming up with a better idea D:

EDIT: Fixed incorrect information and had a TP restoration adjustment for DRK for CD:TP ratio. Thanks Leidiriv for correcting me! :)

Blood Weapon has a 40 second CD, not 60, so it should give about 140 TP if you want a CD:TP ratio that's static across all 3 tanks.

Yea I was looking at an untraited Blood Weapon >.> but I fixed it. Thanks for the correction! :)

I think the TP problems are there because we already have other jobs to patch it.

While tanks are OT, it just means that they're in an 8 men content, which means there's four DPS, which means statics.

I think NIN, BRD and MCH are there BECAUSE of tank's and healer's issues. Especially NIN with their enmity tools and Goad.

IMO, Equilibrium for WAR is suited because WAR uses purely TP while the other two have uses for MP, especially in AOE situations.

It promotes team work and dependency among roles. It used to be just Tank + healer, while DPS just... DPS. Now, all DPS has some kind of utility that cover other roles' issues such as TP/MP management, buffs, and enmity management.

I'd say leave the TP issues alone. We have other jobs, teammates, we can and should rely on for that issue.