Something that's been disturbing me since 2.0

Why don't signature ff spells such as fire, thunder, aero, blizzard, ruin, etc. Have their stronger forms named as fira, firaga, thundara, thundaga, blizzara, blizzaga, etc?

It was a pretty big part of what I personally felt was "ff-ish". Do our jp counterparts have them named differently in their clients?

Yup. They're fira, firaga, etc.

The fire I, fire II, is only on non JP clients.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Yup. They're fira, firaga, etc.

The fire I, fire II, is only on non JP clients.

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D: Strange decision by the localization team to change it then.

Actually classically in the older FF games it was Fire, Fire II, etc.

Fira and Firaga and all that game around in the later FF games.

Probably because to someone for whom this is their first FF game (yes, they exist) the word 'Firaga' would have no meaning.

The -a/-aga suffixes weren't an FF staple until FFVIII came around.

FFXI had both numbered and -a/-aga spells, where the strength of the spell was determined by the number "Fire II stronger than Fire I" and -aga denoted AoE spells.

It might stop the black mages who like to spam only III spells because of course III is always going to be better than I....

I really don't like the current names. They look stupid and like a movie trilogy. I think they didn't go with the -ra -ga -ja names because in the future they might add more types of the same spell like fire 5 and 6. Still it looks boring to me. Also the healing spell names are also stupid. Physick really? What does those names have to do with healing.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

It might stop the black mages who like to spam only III spells because of course III is always going to be better than I....

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I don't think that naming it differently would fix the inability to read an ability description.

Personally, I would have loved this. I miss those terms being used for the stronger versions of the spells, and as someone who's been a fan of final fantasy since VII, it would have been less confusing... but I think Moonleg is right, and I recall seeing a statement made by either Yoshi P or someone on the dev team a long while back that this was their train of thought; they were expecting players both new to Mmo's as well as to final fantasy games and wanted to keep things less confusing for them.

http://chaosreapersreborn.myfreeforu...o_t__t_47.html

Original post got archived.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physick

See definition 1.

On that, see: http://www.latin-dictionary.org/adloquium

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Originally Posted by Moonleg

Probably because to someone for whom this is their first FF game (yes, they exist) the word 'Firaga' would have no meaning.

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HA! Like the new naming scheme is clearer.

How many noob SMNs/BLMs out there are spamming Ruin II/Fire II as part of their single target rotation?

When you see "II" it's implied that it's an upgrade of the preceding spell, meant to replace said spell. So noobs see Fire II and think it must be better than Fire. When in reality Fire II and Fire are "equal" and have completely different uses. One is an AoE spell, the other being your single target main damage spell.

Better no meaning than misleading meaning IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Sakuraluna

Personally, I would have loved this. I miss those terms being used for the stronger versions of the spells, and as someone who's been a fan of final fantasy since VII, it would have been less confusing... but I think Moonleg is right, and I recall seeing a statement made by either Yoshi P or someone on the dev team a long while back that this was their train of thought; they were expecting players both new to Mmo's as well as to final fantasy games and wanted to keep things less confusing for them.

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VII actually used the numbered spell system too. The suffix system didn't start til VIII.

In the Spanish version it was. (Fire) Piro, (Fira) Piro+, (Firaga) Piro++, (Megafire) Megapiro.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

VII actually used the numbered spell system too. The suffix system didn't start til VIII.

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Well to be fair, it's been years since I've played VII and I've also spent years on XI. Either way, I've had the -ga etc. suffixes memorized long enough that it was kind of a shock to me when they were all numbered in this game.

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Originally Posted by Sakuraluna

Well to be fair, it's been years since I've played VII and I've also spent years on XI. Either way, I've had the -ga etc. suffixes memorized long enough that it was kind of a shock to me when they were all numbered in this game.

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Yeah just throwing out some game history :p

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

It might stop the black mages who like to spam only III spells because of course III is always going to be better than I....

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I remember someone replying to me in a dungeon

"Yea sure because a level 5 spell will be better than a level 40 one, lol noob"

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Yup. They're fira, firaga, etc.

The fire I, fire II, is only on non JP clients.

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Only in english language, to be corrected.
There are -ra and -ga in the german language.

It was a decision of the english location team back in 2.0 beta.

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Originally Posted by Sensual

I remember someone replying to me in a dungeon

"Yea sure because a level 5 spell will be better than a level 40 one, lol noob"

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I remember hearing in /sh how people were confused if they should use Aero over Aero II... they were put straight that both are useful and should both be used. And then there were the fun conversations that Repelling and Quelling Shots were singularly capable of keeping an archer's aggro in check even if they were going a mile a minute on the damage. Alot of people have no clue how to perform their classes and it's a rare few that seem to actually want to.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Only in english language, to be corrected.
There are -ra and -ga in the german language.

It was a decision of the english location team back in 2.0 beta.

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From link above:

"Originally Posted by Fernehalwes
Hello all,

A fire is burning hot, so I've put aside the Phase 4/2.0 work to attempt and quell the flames. Hopefully this doesn't end up making the fire bigger. It has been several weeks since I've seen my newborn awake. The long nights and weekends are beginning to take their toll on both my body and sanity. But, I want to make sure that you guys are informed. I don't want to pull the good 'ol "we'll ignore them and they'll go away" tactic, because as a player myself, I absolutely hate it when devs do that. It's a copout (though, as a dev, I can kind of understand why they do it...being called "an ignorant [insert colorful explicative here]-tard" by a nameless shadow in front of the entire world wreaks havoc on the soul).

So, on to the meat that goes with the potatoes:

First off, the decision to go with the numerical naming conventions for spells was NOT because we think American gamers are irreparably dimwitted or somehow less skilled than their Japanese counterparts. There was a time when an 'easy' version of a certain FINAL FANTASY was released because it was believed the American market couldn't handle the JRPG difficulty level. That age is long behind us. There is no hidden agenda to rub mud in the face western players in general. The LOC team is made up almost completely of westerners, and if anyone tried to do that here at SQEX, we would be the first in their faces.

If the decision the EN team made on this particular issue has led some players to believe they are being slighted, then for that I apologize. That was never our intention.

This also wasn't an attempt to cater the game specifically to WoW players, Rift players, Star Wars players, Mabinogi playaz, etc. Our fearless producer has stated in the past that we are not targeting a single player base. We are targeting everyone. We want FINAL FANTASY XIV to be enjoyed by as many people as possible.

The decision to go with the I, II, III system was merely an attempt by the EN team to make the naming system a bit more intuitive so that it might better achieve that goal.

I don't need to tell you that MMORPGs are different from turn-based RPGs in that in the heat of battle, split-second decisions need to be made. There's no time to stop and think. No pause. Anything that is going to give you an advantage, no matter how slight, will be a benefit in the long run. That's not to say, however, a game should be dumbed down because of that.

And here's where logic takes us: There is a big difference between challenging and difficult; or more specifically "challenging but intuitive" and "difficult because it's not as intuitive as it could be."

The choice by the LOC team to go with I, II, III, IV instead of -, -ra, -ga, -ja was an attempt (whether the best one or not is still up for debate) to have a naming system that leaned towards the latter.

After looking at both options:

Cure　　　　　　　　　　Cure
Cure II　　　　　　　　 Cura
Cure III　　　　　　　　Curaga
Cure IV　　　　　　　　Curaja

we felt that having a base name, and then a number offset from that name (with a space) made it quicker and easier to discern the original spell, as well as its level

So then, how is I, II, II, IV more intuitive than the Japanese system of suffixes? Well, it’s not a matter of which is better, but which is better for each language.

As you've all probably come to realize, the current spell naming system is based not on effect, but on the order in which you learn the spells. You learn Cure first, then Cure II, then Cure III, then Cure IV. The Japanese uses the traditional FINAL FANTASY method of adding a one-syllable suffix, but in the end, the rule is the same: you learn the base first ケアル (Kearu -> Cure), and then ケアルラ (Kearura -> Cura), ケアルガ (Kearuga -> Curaga), ケアルジャ (Kearuja -> Curaja)、and so on.

(I) -> no suffix
II -> ラ (ra)
III -> ガ (ga)
IV -> ジャ (ja)

Fun Fact: Since the old days of FF, French has used a system that takes the base spell name and adds an adjectival descriptor. For example, the second level of fire (Feu) is not "Feura", but " Extra Feu." The third level is not "Feuga" but "Mega Feu". This is actually very intuitive in that it describes the level of potency, whereas the Japanese suffixes are simply sounds that have no meaning.

The hitch that the EN team noticed when first translating these was in that beyond "the order learned," there was no consistency across spells when looking at the suffix versus the effect.

Take for example Cure and Blizzard.

Cure and Cure II both heal single targets, whereas Cure III is an AoE spell.
On the other hand, while Blizzard is a single target spell, it is Blizzard II, not Blizzard III that has the AoE effect. Not to mention, none of the Thunder spells (I, II, or III) have AoE effects at all.

Instead of having a system where 'ga' suffix is always going to mean AoE, it just means "learned third in order."

We also noticed that with the thaumaturge action system, casting Blizzard or Fire stacks what is called 'umbral ice' or 'umbral fire'.

Casting Fire I grants 1 umbral fire
Casting Fire II grants 2 umbral fires
Casting Fire III grants 3 umbral fires

Seeing this, we agreed that I, II, III corresponding to 1, 2, 3 was, in a way, slightly more intuitive than -, -ra, -ga corresponding to 1, 2, 3.

But that wasn't all. Things got even trickier with materia.

The naming system for materia in FFXIV is similar to that of spells in that the JP uses suffixes to denote the materia's level.The problem here is, wedged in-between 'ra' and 'ga' (which would be II and III in EN spells), they have an extra level--'da' so that the progression goes like this:

Materia (I)
Materira (II)
Materida (III)
Materiga (IV)
Materija (V)

So players will have to remember that 'ga' (in the case of materia, and only materia) is level IV, not level III like all the spells. In EN, level 3 is III, level 4 is IV. That number also corresponds to the numerical grade of carbonized matter that is required to meld materia. Grade 3 carbonized matter is is used on level III materia, and so on.

That's not to say that the Japanese method is completely unintuitive. It works well in Japanese for a number of reasons that in some ways are very language-specific. For example, the Japanese written language is set up so that the width of every single character, whether it be hiragana, katakana, or kanji, is the same exact width. This means that a 4-character word is going to be the same length as every other 4-character Japanese word in existence.

ケアル (Cure)
ケアルラ (Cura)
ケアルガ (Curaga)
ケアルダ (Curada)

ブリザド (Blizzard)
ブリザラ (Blizzara)
ブリザガ (Blizzaga)
ブリザダ (Blizzada)

サンダー (Thunder)
サンダラ (Thundara)
サンダガ (Thundaga)
サンダダ (Thundada)

As you can see, the JP lines up perfectly, making it very simple for that added single-character suffix to be set apart from the original word. I understand that while the EN also does follow this pattern, it is not as precise as the JP is, due to the fact we use proportional fonts.

Again, this is not the only reason, but even with a Schrodinger's box filled with reasons, I'm sure that over hours and hours of play, everyone would sooner or later remember all the combinations. However, the way we saw it was, why try to make everyone bear that burden for the sole purpose of bearing it? If there was a simpler way to make everything line up, why not introduce that?

I understand completely that there is also that factor of legacy terminology, and this is why I was on the fence for so long on this issue. Other than FFXI, most of the old FFs use the JP suffixes, so they have that nostalgia factor. It is what they have always been. It would be like changing Phoenix Down to the 'proper' translation 'Phoenix Tail Feather' ('feather didn't fit in the UI back in the day, so they had to make it down, and that stuck). Nobody would get away with that, no matter how good their intentions. In this case, however, we felt that with the current way the spells are set up by the battle team (LOC has no say over the effects of individual spells, only the EN, FR, and DE names) that a little deviation might help bring some rhyme to the battle team's reason. It was a gamble, and the decision was made to pull the trigger. In 1.0, the JP followed the EN and used I, II, III. In 2.0, the JP decided to go back to the suffixes, EN decided to remain the same.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that we'll continue to monitor this thread, and see where it takes us. However, I would like to ask you (as always) to keep it civil. As a fan myself, I know how easy it is to get derailed when passionate about an issue. Passion is great and more than welcome here. Rancor is bad. Leave the rancor to the Tonberries. (OMG! Tonberries confirmed!)"

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In short, the numbers are the order in which they are learned. Nothing more, as -ra, -ga, -ja, etc, don't mean a damned thing in Japanese.

They could have named them entirely different names for each one to designate they are in fact, different spells, mostly with different effects, but they didn't.

As an aside, FF1 localization had Fire, Fir2, Ice, Ice2, Lit, Lit2, etc.

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Originally Posted by Riardon

I really don't like the current names. They look stupid and like a movie trilogy. I think they didn't go with the -ra -ga -ja names because in the future they might add more types of the same spell like fire 5 and 6. Still it looks boring to me. Also the healing spell names are also stupid. Physick really? What does those names have to do with healing.

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Physick has the same root word as physician. It was also the general term for medicine in the middle ages ^^

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Alot of people have no clue how to perform their classes and it's a rare few that seem to actually want to.

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^^^
Pretty much this.
Many players don't care enough to bother trying to comprehend the most basic things and some I fear are incapable of it.
When such is the case, no amount of intuitive naming or concise and clear descriptions will make such players have a clue.
Perfect example. I was doing an ex roul Neverreap run and had a bard that was single targeting during full pack pulls of 5+ mobs. I asked them to pls use aoes for packs of mobs of 4+. Their response, "but I do more damage when I single target". I then explain that they do more damage with aoes because smaller hits on lot of things adds up to be more damage than a single stronger hit on a single target. Seriously ... I sh#t you not, a lvl.60 that doesn't understand how aoes and their damage work.

SCH word lessons! - Insert lecture music theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf9MFSDzXII

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Originally Posted by Riardon

I really don't like the current names. They look stupid and like a movie trilogy. I think they didn't go with the -ra -ga -ja names because in the future they might add more types of the same spell like fire 5 and 6. Still it looks boring to me. Also the healing spell names are also stupid. Physick really? What does those names have to do with healing.

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http://i.imgur.com/aiXVfcM.gif
Plenty! It doesn't have to directly say medicine. Healers are supporters.
Physick/Physic - Medicine.
Like the word Physician. This spell is commonly mispronounced Sigh-sick.
Adloquium - Reassuring words. Friendly encouragement.
Succor: Assistance and support in times of hardship and distress.
Lustrate: purify by expiatory sacrifice, ceremonial washing, or some other ritual action. [Dispelling.]
Indomitability: that cannot be subdued or overcome, as persons, will, or courage; unconquerable.

A lot of old timey words lol.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

A lot of old timey words lol.

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Or, English in general. It not SE's fault that America's stopped learning how to use it years ago.

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Originally Posted by Haibel

Or, English in general. It not SE's fault that America's stopped learning how to use it years ago.

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Thats cuz we speak 'murican now!

YEAH!

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Originally Posted by Haibel

Or, English in general. It not SE's fault that America's stopped learning how to use it years ago.

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So did the Australians, what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Haibel

Or, English in general. It not SE's fault that America's stopped learning how to use it years ago.

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Duh, we are too busy watching sweet shows like "Ow My Balls" while sitting on our recliner toilets and drinking Brondo while batin'.

With all that to do where can anyone find the time to be literate and have a vocabulary.