NIN or BLM?

Evening all,

I'm a bard main, and i got AST to endgame, but recent events reminded my why i despise healing.

So I need a new alt to compliment my bard, and i've narrowed it down to BLM or NIN. I was looking for feedback from people who have hit endgame with them.

The way I currently see the two is like this:

BLM:
Pros:
- High DPS
- Fun

Cons:
- Everyone complains about enochian (but everyone complains about minuet, too, which is nothing to complain about)
- I would have two ranged, cast-time DPS (although one is more mobile and support-ish)

NIN:
Pros:
- Fun and fast-paced
- Already own half the gear
- One ranged dps and one melee dps provides variety

Cons:
-Everyone complains about mudra lag, low dps, running out of TP
-Rotation seems complicated and not in a good way

Which would you suggest?

nin rotation isn't complicated once you get used to mudra combinations, the only downside of nin atm is its TP, mudra lag and weak AoE.

I switched to nin from BRD since our old nin wanted to play MCH.

my main complaint is mudras for sure, AC doesnt fix the issue like it was suppose to, sometimes even fuma cuts into the gcd but I play with a 100+ ping so you might fair better depending on your location.

Even though nins tp isn't amazing because of high skillspeed on gear / huton, I still rarely find myself running out. Almost all end game fights have constant breaks where you can regain tp so it's not as much of an issue as people will have you believe. Use invig at proper times, don't spam blossom when no breaks coming. It's honestly not that big of a deal, I play daily

mudra lag is actually an input window, where it checks your latency before the mudra input fires off, if you have bad ms it could give you the odd problem, you learn to deal with this from experience and having an above average ms. Again, it is not as large of a problem as people would have you believe, I rarely mess up a mudra and when I do I know it was my fault and it could have been prevented, it's a dummy check mechanic nothing more.

Nin isn't perfect but it's far from as bad as some of the crybabies say.
My only problem with nin is dancing edge debuff needs to last longer so we can use aeolian edge more often.

I'm a 191 nin and these are my experiences, good luck.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

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TP is definitely an issue in A2 and A3 savage, A2 savage is a 10m fight with no downtime and A3 savage last phase is a 7m burn.

Was I talking about savage? no I wasn't, I was giving general advise, not everyone is doing a3 savage but thanks for coming by...

and that problem is easily fixed by having 2 nins goad eachother instead of just 1 nin, and I'm pretty sure you already knew that but felt like posting anyways.

Other than crafting relentlessly, I main BLM. The damage is obviously there and fun too! Enochian is not that bad once you understand how to maintain it. Still, many BLMs dont grasp the concept of actually planning ahead and putting ones self in a position to maintain the buff. It is possible to keep it up nearly 100% of the time if paying attention, and the throughput utilizing it is amazing. Definitely worth checking out.

Don't know why people are making Nin's TP problem such a big deal... Sure, it's not the best (isn't it down to a lot of SS on NIN gear though?), but that's why you have a BRD/MCH in your group.

No melee job have been able to last for more than around 4 mins in 2.X, and now in 3.0, the only difference is that MNK have purification to gain some extra TP. It's not like DRG can last ages either.

In A2, it's perfect to have a NIN in the gobwalker anyways, because they have the weakest AoE of all jobs, and run out of TP too fast like you said.

NIN should have something to gain a little TP during fight, but I don't know why people suddenly expect BRD/MCH to never use TP regen anymore.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Evening all,

I'm a bard main, and i got AST to endgame, but recent events reminded my why i despise healing.

So I need a new alt to compliment my bard, and i've narrowed it down to BLM or NIN. I was looking for feedback from people who have hit endgame with them.

The way I currently see the two is like this:

BLM:
Pros:
- High DPS
- Fun

Cons:
- Everyone complains about enochian (but everyone complains about minuet, too, which is nothing to complain about)
- I would have two ranged, cast-time DPS (although one is more mobile and support-ish)

NIN:
Pros:
- Fun and fast-paced
- Already own half the gear
- One ranged dps and one melee dps provides variety

Cons:
-Everyone complains about mudra lag, low dps, running out of TP
-Rotation seems complicated and not in a good way

Which would you suggest?

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More on topic though...

I don't have a lot of knowledge about BLM now in 3.0, but it is most certainly a lot harder to master than in 2.X. You have to be able to plan ahead better than ever before, and you have little margin for error. There are nothing "wrong" with BLM though, because some of the best groups in the world have used them to clear the hardest and most demanding fights.

As for NIN, the only thing you really need to worry about is mudra lag... If you have a NIN with all mudras already, then just try out using them as fast as possible, and determine if you can use 3 or them for example, within a short period of time. I would suggest trying during peak hours, because it would suck if you get higher ping during that time, and suffer.

NIN has too low DPS compared to DRG, but that's the only one that is far ahead right now, and DRG is far ahead of every job. Don't worry about it, cause NIN have very good DPS anyways.

The rotation for NIN is pretty simple once you get used to it. It takes longer getting used to than BLM maybe, but it's easier to master NIN than BLM.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

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Ridiculous reply. If you want to see how viable something is, you look at the realistic potential you have. If you want to look at it that way you can take any balance discussion and say "not everyone does savage". Let's face it, outside of current top content, slightly less dps, a little bit of lag or TP starvation is less important. Add that to the fact that most non savage content lasts for 3 minutes and gives no time to actually run out of TP in the first place. Bringing 2 ninjas is not a viable option where TP actually does matter, and I'm pretty sure you already knew that.

To the OP, nin is good enough for whatever you want to do. Player matters more than job in practice. Get used to the rotation and the mudra lag and you will be fine. As for ranged dps, we have little to none. Mudras are nice, but outside of that you will run dry on tp quickly.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I just got on during peak hours and went to idyll shire and banged out some mudras.

In ten tries, I landed between 2.45 and 2.5 seconds from the first mudra to the huton cast. I'm assuming this is a bit tight. There seems to be an odd delay between when the next mudra is ready and when the mudra animation starts. When I tried to ignore that delay and speed it up, I rabbited all over the place.

BLM it is, I guess.

I was in the same situation(except was choosing main) and I chose blm. Nuking the sh!# out of things with fire4 feels sooo good :3 . You'll get used to enochian and knowing which action to use next (like if u get selected for a mechanic u gotta dodge or something) based on your timers. Animation of fire4 and blizz4 really makes it feel powerful on top of seeing the big numbers.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Thanks for the advice everyone. I just got on during peak hours and went to idyll shire and banged out some mudras.

In ten tries, I landed between 2.45 and 2.5 seconds from the first mudra to the huton cast. I'm assuming this is a bit tight. There seems to be an odd delay between when the next mudra is ready and when the mudra animation starts. When I tried to ignore that delay and speed it up, I rabbited all over the place.

BLM it is, I guess.

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I end up clipping my mudra animations most of the time because of the lag but then again I've played for years with lag and know the timing pretty well to be able to play nin so well. I'm just leveling it up now. I've watched some videos of BLM and this seems a bit complicated. I played BLM before but I sucked at it. I still do maybe its because I played smn for so long that I'm just so used to it that its difficult to get into BLM mainly the reason I went towards ninja because its not that hard. I also heard BLM have to change there rotations often and on the fly with little room for error and that kind of makes me not want to play the job because of that. You can try out BLM and see if you like it some feedback on it would be great!

Sometimes you have to wait a split second to make sure the mudra went through okay...but then, that's mudra lag :P with me the lag can vary wildly, sometimes it's perfect and I feel like changing mains, sometimes it's dreadful and I want to crawl into a hole after refunding all the gear I got for it.

Ninja damage is NOT low, maybe compared to the other 2 melees but you're definitely on their heels - not to mention Trick Attack is a raid-wide dps boost. That said their aoe is awful.

Also note the many NINs who are saying their damage is now behind DRG and MNK as far as melee goes. Could be because of all the Skill Speed gear.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Was I talking about savage? no I wasn't, I was giving general advise, not everyone is doing a3 savage but thanks for coming by...

and that problem is easily fixed by having 2 nins goad eachother instead of just 1 nin, and I'm pretty sure you already knew that but felt like posting anyways.

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The hardest content is the content jobs are balanced for, because it's the only content where it really matters. And no, 2 Nin's is not a good option, since you are sacrificing the utility another job would bring to the raid. It's almost ridiculous to even suggest this, we should be thankful the double Mnk days for progression are over.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Sometimes you have to wait a split second to make sure the mudra went through okay...That said their aoe is awful.

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It's a real shame about that, because I think a melee dps would compliment my bard perfectly, plus they share some gear. But i'm already kinda feeling like bard's aoe isn't strong enough, and i know ninja's is terrible. BLM isn't much better with the flare nerf, but im certainly not playing a summoner because i play on PS4, which isn't even slightly compatible with a class that needs 17,539 keybinds.

Tried mudras again today, sadly it's the same thing: either compensate for the lag and end up using an entire gcd on mudras, or try to speed up and get rabbits.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

It's a real shame about that, because I think a melee dps would compliment my bard perfectly, plus they share some gear. But i'm already kinda feeling like bard's aoe isn't strong enough, and i know ninja's is terrible. BLM isn't much better with the flare nerf, but im certainly not playing a summoner because i play on PS4, which isn't even slightly compatible with a class that needs 17,539 key binds.

Tried mudras again today, sadly it's the same thing: either compensate for the lag and end up using an entire gcd on mudras, or try to speed up and get rabbits.

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After you get Armor Crush, you don't have to recast Huton anymore.
That means the 3-mudra only happens once a minute. Suiton > Trick Attack is obviously worth the time even if you have to slow down.

You can use Fuma Shuriken the rest of the time and you'd still do fine (it's arguable better in most situations anyway).
I mean, Mudra Lag still sucks but you should only really deal with that kind of slowing down once a minute and the raid dps increase is worth the gcd of time anyway.

NIN AoE wasn't bad before. I would say they were on par with DRG and only below WHM/BLM before.
Now they're quite outpaced compared to the other Jobs who got abilities that increase their AoE directly or indirectly.
But hey, MNK went all of 2.0 with practically no AoE presence but it didn't stop them from reigning Coil.

NIN's gap is at least less. Kassatsu-Doton is 360 potency per target which is really strong if you use it well.


You also put high dps for BLM.
NIN's dps should be slightly higher than a BLM on a dummy, and a good bit higher on any real fight.
It's the most versatile of the melee when it comes to dealing with fight mechanics while doing the rotation.
(And BLM is probably last when it comes to versatility)

That said, I've seen BLMs do some amazing numbers as well.
So I'm not saying it's just worse, but if high dps is a pro of BLM, then it's also a pro of....well all the dps Jobs but BRD/MCH.

Unless the fight mechanic is a battle of attrition. Then you might die a slow TP-starved death.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Unless the fight mechanic is a battle of attrition. Then you might die a slow TP-starved death.

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Isn't the whole issue with ninjas TP because of skill speed overload on gear though? Won't that change?

Unless you are running savage, no, it won't change. The full eso set will leave you with somewhere around 700 skillspeed. ^^ But this is not the core problem, Nin burns through TP really fast by just doing the normal rotation, and aside from invig or getting fed from a Brd/Mch/Nin there's no way to restore them. It got even worse since HW/armor crush, because the occasional TP tick from clipping a manually casted huton is gone.

How would 2 ninjas have TP problems? They both get invigorate and they could goad each other. It seems like that would really solve any TP problems?

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Originally Posted by Xaenith

How would 2 ninjas have TP problems? They both get invigorate and they could goad each other. It seems like that would really solve any TP problems?

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Except most groups don't run 2 ninjas they usually Run Drg/Nin very rarely does a group run 2 ninjas

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

Except most groups don't run 2 ninjas they usually Run Drg/Nin very rarely does a group run 2 ninjas

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The reason for that is because it prevents gearing issues and everyone knows they will get a piece of for there job if it drops.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

The reason for that is because it prevents gearing issues and everyone knows they will get a piece of for there job if it drops.

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That's not the only reason.
You should bring different Jobs for the unique buffs they bring, in addition to gearing.

TP isn't the worst thing in the world, though.
What's the point of there being so many TP regen skills if everyone is TP self-sufficient.
Though, since AST doesn't get much space in Savage and Goad is not for the NIN, it's up to the BRD/MCH to help you out.
It's an issue but I don't think it breaks the class. Mudras definitely more annoying and prevalent in non-savage fights too.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Unless you are running savage, no, it won't change. The full eso set will leave you with somewhere around 700 skillspeed. ^^ But this is not the core problem, Nin burns through TP really fast by just doing the normal rotation, and aside from invig or getting fed from a Brd/Mch/Nin there's no way to restore them. It got even worse since HW/armor crush, because the occasional TP tick from clipping a manually casted huton is gone.

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Yea, but you don't run out of TP on non-savage content anyway.
Maybe A4 sometimes though.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

The reason for that is because it prevents gearing issues and everyone knows they will get a piece of for there job if it drops.

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That's not true, mathematecally the chance for two identical Nin pieces dropping in two consecutive weeks is the same as having one Nin and one Drg piece drop. Also as already mentioned, you bring different jobs for their unique raid utility.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

That's not true, mathematecally the chance for two identical Nin pieces dropping in two consecutive weeks is the same as having one Nin and one Drg piece drop. Also as already mentioned, you bring different jobs for their unique raid utility.

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Ah, my ex-static had a legend about the never-ending mass production of Ninja Belts from Turn 10 :P

In any case, doesn't your limit break filling rate get slowed down by having duplicate jobs too? That's probably more reason than any but regardless I wouldn't take 2 NINs solely for the purpose of sustaining each other.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

That's not true, mathematecally the chance for two identical Nin pieces dropping in two consecutive weeks is the same as having one Nin and one Drg piece drop. Also as already mentioned, you bring different jobs for their unique raid utility.

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Gear should play a factor.
What you said is true, but because they have equal chances, a comp with duplicate Jobs has less of a range of acceptable gear drops.
You don't know which will drop, but any drop for a Job that isn't in the party doesn't upgrade the main group.
Since all Jobs have that equal chance, the chance of wasted drops rises with duplicates.

An extreme example would be a comp all with one Job (say, SCH).
Not considering how viable that is, you're saying that such a comp would not have gearing issues.
It obviously would because the only acceptable drops would be SCH gear and every other drop would be wasted.

While not as extreme, any duplicates limit the range of acceptable drops and raise the probability of wasted ones.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Ah, my ex-static had a legend about the never-ending mass production of Ninja Belts from Turn 10 :P

In any case, doesn't your limit break filling rate get slowed down by having duplicate jobs too? That's probably more reason than any but regardless I wouldn't take 2 NINs solely for the purpose of sustaining each other.

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Yes, your LB doesn't fill as fast when running similar classes.
That is a deterrent, but it's not crippling if you just have one duplicate. Mostly because LB would usually still be available at the times you need it anyway for specific fight mechanics.
Definitely something to keep in mind though.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the LB fill at the same rate as long as all the 'stats' on top of the party list are filled?

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the LB fill at the same rate as long as all the 'stats' on top of the party list are filled?

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I believe the testing before showed that the LB only filled from unique skills and abilities.
I don't know all the details but I think it's something like dots/hots and some other things from the same Job would only count once if two were ticking.

I'm not sure exactly which aspects are and aren't affected outside of dots/hots.
That was the gist of it though. It's even in the wiki too.

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All levels of the Limit Break gauge will fill slower when multiple characters are playing the same class/job in the same party.

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It was actually a change in the 2.1 patch notes directly saying:

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"When multiple characters are playing the same class/job in a party, the gauge for level 2 and level 3 limit breaks will now fill more slowly than before."

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Source

I'm also in the BLM vs nin boat... I'm currently maining MNK from a MAXDEEPS purist standpoint, but, it just isnt terribly fun for me. I feel like MNK gets very tunnel vision and you lose the beauty and scope fo the battles for a zoom in on that little directional circle on the mob.

I like blm from the classic mmo and FF standpoint of the glass cannon with massive dmg, although ive found that in XIV the damage is in theory less than the melees.

Nin would be a nice hybrid of the two.

My question is that I get varying responses on BLM dmg, some say that if left alone in certain fights they have incredible output and the challenge is in predicting positions and movement. Then i hear others say that on Dummy parses, BLM comes in 4th behind the melees.

What's the truth!?!?

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Originally Posted by slurricane

My question is that I get varying responses on BLM dmg, some say that if left alone in certain fights they have incredible output and the challenge is in predicting positions and movement. Then i hear others say that on Dummy parses, BLM comes in 4th behind the melees.

What's the truth!?!?

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The truth is that dummy parses don't mean a dag-nabbed thing. They aren't even worth considering.

But it is true that the dps of a skilled and unskilled blm is an extremely significant difference. I out-dps blms as bard more often than I should (I land between 970-1050 on faust), but other times they just blow me out of the water. If you can't figure enochian out, you're going to be fairly useless.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

The truth is that dummy parses don't mean a dag-nabbed thing. They aren't even worth considering.

But it is true that the dps of a skilled and unskilled blm is an extremely significant difference. I out-dps blms as bard more often than I should (I land between 970-1050 on faust), but other times they just blow me out of the water. If you can't figure enochian out, you're going to be fairly useless.

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That's not the truth. Dummy parses matter.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

That's not the truth. Dummy parses matter.

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What boss is even remotely comparable to what you'd do on a dummy? Faust?

You're talking about potential dps vs realistic dps.

Black Mage has the potential to do ridiculously op amounts of dps, but unfortunately those darn bosses keep making them interrupt their casts. You don't have to unturret yourself vs a dummy.

They exist for practicing rotations.

i too would like to know if black mage could do higher damage than melee on a dummy ,

4-6k dps on ST lol

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

What boss is even remotely comparable to what you'd do on a dummy? Faust?

You're talking about potential dps vs realistic dps.

Black Mage has the potential to do ridiculously op amounts of dps, but unfortunately those darn bosses keep making them interrupt their casts. You don't have to unturret yourself vs a dummy.

They exist for practicing rotations.

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That does say something though.
BLM is one of the more affected Jobs by realistic fight mechanics, so if they're already 4th on a dummy...it's only downhill from there on a given fight.

Well, that's the theory. But the burst BLM brings suits a lot of fights in FFXIV.
I think BLM keeps its 4th spot in real fights in my experience.

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Originally Posted by slurricane

I'm also in the BLM vs nin boat... I'm currently maining MNK from a MAXDEEPS purist standpoint, but, it just isnt terribly fun for me. I feel like MNK gets very tunnel vision and you lose the beauty and scope fo the battles for a zoom in on that little directional circle on the mob.

I like blm from the classic mmo and FF standpoint of the glass cannon with massive dmg, although ive found that in XIV the damage is in theory less than the melees.

Nin would be a nice hybrid of the two.

My question is that I get varying responses on BLM dmg, some say that if left alone in certain fights they have incredible output and the challenge is in predicting positions and movement. Then i hear others say that on Dummy parses, BLM comes in 4th behind the melees.

What's the truth!?!?

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Originally Posted by itti18

i too would like to know if black mage could do higher damage than melee on a dummy ,

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I mean, most compare within role because the roles are balanced differently.
I think BLM and NIN are within a similar range on a dummy.
But then the NIN brings Trick Attack, which might as well count as the NIN's dps, and that brings them a good bit higher.
NIN is also not as affected by fight mechanics as BLM or the other melee.

But what was said was not contradicting.
BLM has great damage for what it is.
Jobs that can attack at ranged are important for mechanics.
BLM brings single target damage that's not that far behind melee, while being ranged.

Skill and fight awareness also play a huge role so it's muddled.
But generally, the top of the dps meter are melee.