Paladin TP Issues Compared to other Tanks - Working as Intended?

In order for the Paladin to maintain the threshold of DPS for Alexander Savage, in Shield Oath, the typical rotation is FoF -> Goring Blade Combo - > Halone Combo - > Royal Authority and keeping CoS and SW on cooldown.

Doing this usually nets high damage but we are quickly deprived of TP much faster than a Warrior and somewhat faster than a Dark Knight. Unless we are being given Goad or some TP assistance through other means this can't last for long.

Further, I am wondering if this is even "natural" for a Paladin. Going off the Q&A Thread for Live Letter XXIII I read from Bayhone, the community rep,

"Paladins are specialized in defense so their damage output is a little bit lower. "

Does this mean that this rotation we're trying to upkeep is unnatural for a Paladin in shield oath? If so, where does that leave us for Savage Alexander and other hardcore content. I feel like we need some sort of buff or way to keep this rotation going for a respectable period of time.

Shield swipe regen tp at the cost 9f damage, but also gives enmity to squeeze in more not - halone combos. Also a few spells like SS and healing.

Pld maintains tp by doing not damage support actions. Good for party, but not if lack of dps is your groups issue.

It's just designed differently. Not necessarily worse.

Dark also burns tp even faster.

Dark Knights are in kinda the same boat as they don't have their own TP regen skill or TP saver, like Shield Swipe. There's nothing wrong with upkeeping a high-damage rotation; just realize that you can't be using that rotation 100% of the time. With that said, there are usually some down times within raids/bosses-in-general where you're not doing anything or just dodging. That downtime can be your TP break if you're not using your support actions like Izsha suggested.

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Originally Posted by Muchmidget

Dark Knights are in kinda the same boat as they don't have their own TP regen skill or TP saver, like Shield Swipe. There's nothing wrong with upkeeping a high-damage rotation; just realize that you can't be using that rotation 100% of the time. With that said, there are usually some down times within raids/bosses-in-general where you're not doing anything or just dodging. That downtime can be your TP break if you're not using your support actions like Izsha suggested.

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My concern is the party expects us to maintain a certain threshold of DPS in order to meet the checks. I'm wondering if that is unnatural or if such things weren't intended and that we're compensating for the still-slightly-undergeared players in Savage.

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Originally Posted by Anger

My concern is the party expects us to maintain a certain threshold of DPS in order to meet the checks. I'm wondering if that is unnatural or if such things weren't intended and that we're compensating for the still-slightly-undergeared players in Savage.

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It's more the fact that as a whole your group needs to maintain a certain DPS level. If the group's dedicated DPS aren't meeting checks for whatever reason, you'll see more expectations on tanks/healers to make up the difference (remember that SE takes what they expect and lower it by 15%, so theoretically we can hit their caps without accounting for tanks pushing themselves). I'd actually argue that Paladin is in a fantastic spot for this for 2 reasons:
#1. They can push their DPS rotation like you've put in your OP to help meet DPS checks. You can't maintain this 100% of the time, but you don't need to because of #2.
#2 You can use support abilities and plethora of cooldowns to reduce healer load. This can* allow one or both of your healers to DPS for a time; and let's face it, having a healer DPS will mean more group DPS contribution than your optimal rotation in tank stance. You can't maintain support abilities 100% of the time due to cooldowns, but in regards to DPS you don't need to because of #1.

*only saying 'can' because some fights require lots of healer concentration. But as you get more comfortable with the boss's and your groups' rotations you'll see your healers work out their own DPS times accordingly.

When a top raid is new, we are undergeared. The only way to meet dps checks in content like that is heals and tanks dish out more. When your entire group has eso gear/weapons with all those stats and weapon damage, you will no longer need to min max tank dps just to clear a fight.

If you want to be on the cutting edge, jobs have to be more efficient. That's not really the design benchmark though.

Also, as said most fights have downtime. Ravana dissapear for ages. A1 bosses jump away and poop green sludge for a good while before landing etc. TP should really only be a issue in extended turret style fights like T8 woth no breaks. When that happens you gotta do some swipes and stoneskins to cut your own damage, or have a bard/mch cut their damage to tp up the group. Or hope the nin has nothing more important t goad.

It's working as intended. Most fights it doesn't even matter. The ones that do will have tp songs built in for the whole group anyway.

All tanks have the same baseline tp consumption - DRK actually have higher because of blood weapon.

Technically DRK can filler with unmend/unleash and stay resource neutral, but doing so is such a high dps loss that it is equivalent to a PLD sitting there twiddling their thumbs.

WAR of course are master race because obviously it is balanced that way, their niche is that they have no resource issues, duh.

I've toyed with the idea of making Tempered Will, a gimmicky cooldown whose main purpose so far has only been "I'm too lazy to dodge this knockback" a TP restore. DRK has even worse TP issues with blood weapon right now so I could see one of their (many) offensive cooldowns restore TP on hit. WAR has actually lower baseline tp consumption by virtue of the fact that fell cleave, inner beast, steel cyclone and decimate are all gcds with 0 tp cost, so putting a TP restore on top of that felt a bit silly.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

All tanks have the same baseline tp consumption

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Heck no. Thanks to pacification and many abilities that use wrath/abandon stacks it's almost impossible to run out of TP as a warrior. DRK gets of TP pretty quickly yes, but as far as it goes even on A2 TP is really not the issue as a DRK. All of the fights in alexander got some kind of phase transition where its impossible to consumme any PT unlike most of the encounter in final coil.

I would run out of TP on many fights like T9 as a paladin and no one gave a damn. I know the new encounters got really tight dps checks but it'll get less and less relevant as time goes by, heck if you can't kill a1 because of TP you should sincerly tell your DPS to get good. The parser results of my group from this week shows that healers are not even required to dps on faust or even on the oppressors.

Please read the rest of my post. By baseline I mean the combos that the OP mentions extensively. Every single one is 70-60-60.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Heck no. Thanks to pacification and many abilities that use wrath/abandon stacks it's almost impossible to run out of TP as a warrior. DRK gets of TP pretty quickly yes, but as far as it goes even on A2 TP is really not the issue as a DRK. All of the fights in alexander got some kind of phase transition where its impossible to consumme any PT unlike most of the encounter in final coil.

I would run out of TP on many fights like T9 as a paladin and no one gave a damn. I know the new encounters got really tight dps checks but it'll get less and less relevant as time goes by, heck if you can't kill a1 because of TP you should sincerly tell your DPS to get good. The parser results of my group from this week shows that healers are not even required to dps on faust or even on the oppressors.

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I'm out of TP near the start of the 3rd phase in A4 normal as a DRK not using Blood Weapon. Can't imagine it's much different for a PLD.

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Originally Posted by Anger

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i am running out of tp since, i don know. constantly complaining, wishing at 3.0 we get that tp replenish feature.
i am a tank at full thrust. being forced to stop my rotations, or even slow em down ... is uterly bullshit. at ilvl 90 i already got starved, even using shieldswipe. i did shitloads of pvp, complaining the pld job lacks tp replenish.
i so fakin hoped we get a skill with 3.0. but no, we didnt. if i get full on hands, out of tp before the 3m mark and then its just going to lalaland ;(

p.s.: tbh the tp thing war got, i thought we get somth like that. cause we really needed it.

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Originally Posted by Anger

Does this mean that this rotation we're trying to upkeep is unnatural for a Paladin in shield oath? If so, where does that leave us for Savage Alexander and other hardcore content. I feel like we need some sort of buff or way to keep this rotation going for a respectable period of time.

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All of the Tank combos cost the same amount post 3.0. Butcher's Block, Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Rage of Halone, Goring Blade, Royal Authority, Delirium, Power Slash and Souleater all cost 70-60-60 (190 TP over 3 gcds). The reason the Warrior does not have the TP problems that Paladin and Dark Knight have is because they have a non-interrupting DpS boosting 0 TP action they can use roughly every 7 or 8 gcds.

You need to also consider that Alex Savage is tuned for characters in i190 to i200 gear. Phases that are supposed to take 2 minutes are taking longer to do because everyone's DpS is lower than expected.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I'm out of TP near the start of the 3rd phase in A4 normal as a DRK not using Blood Weapon. Can't imagine it's much different for a PLD.

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Since there is no phy dmg from the boss itself in A4, PLD can't use shield swipe to regain TP so for the most part the two are similar. The only difference would be when DRK drops grit at a safe time to dps and uses blood wpn, that's when DRK runs out faster. Else they are both in the same boat.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I'm out of TP near the start of the 3rd phase in A4 normal as a DRK not using Blood Weapon. Can't imagine it's much different for a PLD.

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Same here, unless I've had some external TP regen on me for a moment.

The thing is, unlike some people in this thread, I know what to do about it: pop 3-4 Unmends on the target. There, I'm good on TP for a bit. Can't spam unmend until my bar fills (I need mp for da+dm on Discoid/Ray), but I can usually spare a few casts to let my TP recover. If not, that's my own danged fault for letting my MP get too low to begin with.

That said - if you have a TP-regen ability, and you see a DRK popping unmend for some reason other than to grab aggro at range or do ranged damage, do them a favor and use it for them. :)

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Same here, unless I've had some external TP regen on me for a moment.

The thing is, unlike some people in this thread, I know what to do about it: pop 3-4 Unmends on the target. There, I'm good on TP for a bit. Can't spam unmend until my bar fills (I need mp for da+dm on Discoid/Ray), but I can usually spare a few casts to let my TP recover. If not, that's my own danged fault for letting my MP get too low to begin with.

That said - if you have a TP-regen ability, and you see a DRK popping unmend for some reason other than to grab aggro at range or do ranged damage, do them a favor and use it for them. :)

--Erim Nelhah

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Of course. It just kinda sucks because using unmend represents something like ~120-150 ish lost potency every single time you use it when compared to our normal rotation. Obviously not as bad as PLD, but it's still a pretty stiff penalty for only a little over 2min worth of DPS.

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Originally Posted by ks3v3n

being forced to stop my rotations, or even slow em down ... is uterly bullshit

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But that's the point of having a resource. You can only do so much and you have to measure the trade-offs involved. It makes abilities like goad, paeon, and spire card have value, and in turn makes those jobs more valuable in a team environment.