Oh god, DKs!

What am I doing wrong when I heal DKs?! It's like in no matter the dungeon level I'm in, a DK always makes me spam my heals. I just got done in nm SV and I was going OOM and using divine seal, while spamming cure 2, just to keep the tank up on trash pulls. We still wiped a couple times. I was in bray yesterday for my leveling roulette daily and the tank was apparently level 60 with 180 ilvl gear on and it was still a struggle to keep him up.

They aren't making stupid tanking mistakes like losing aggro or having the mobs face us. Grit is always on, along with the other CDs. It's not really bad tanking on their part.

Does anyone have an helpful hints and tips? My WHM is level 52. I think one of my biggest problems is how fast the tank loses HP. It's like a second in and he's lost 25% of his HP. After that, he's near death in another second or two. Benediction is nice but I don't have Benediction in dungeons lower than 50 and those are the majority I get.

I find once in a while i have a DRK who doesn't drop to 25% health after every attack.

It will be hard, especially since Grit is not as good as Defiance, and the job doesn't have a shield. In Bray, the job is locked out of Soueater, which is a key tool for mitigation. Really just keep Regen up if possible.

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Originally Posted by Delily

It will be hard, especially since Grit is not as good as Defiance, and the job doesn't have a shield. In Bray, the job is locked out of Soueater, which is a key tool for mitigation. Really just keep Regen up if possible.

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What? For one grit is better than defiance, defiance barely does anything unless you're topped off or actively getting healed.*Soul eater is a self heal, not mitigation. Honestly the drk op are probably going aren't poping cd's or aren't in grit or something. The class has very good defensive capabilities that the vast majority of their user base ignore.

Self healing is a form of mitigation, with that said I cringe when I am locked out of it because I know the healer is in for a rougher ride. I'll agree with the cd's though, I'll pop shadowskin if we have a group of 4 or more.

I dont know DK skills, but really, i had lots of DK's(way more than warriors) that needed very little heal. I usually feel stressed out only when i see warriors.

Most of the dark knights I heal it's not so much about their skills (though those who don't use their cool downs doesn't help) but a lot of it, for me, has to do with their gear. As I'm slowly reaching the level 60 on White mage and playing experts on SCH, their gear is the major issue.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Self healing is a form of mitigation

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Well, going into semantics, it literally is not.
Mitigation means making something less than what it was.

You first need to be able to mitigate the hit into something your HP pool can withstand, then recover (into which self-healing falls) faster than you're taking damage. If the hit deals more than 100% of your HP, you need to mitigate it - healing it afterwards is impossible.

Mitigation also happens pre-emptively while healing is a reaction.

DK!? DONKEY KONG!

..now I have the donkey Kong song stuck in my head lol.

DK's are fine, some might be a bit new to tanking, but the job itself works fine.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

What? For one grit is better than defiance, defiance barely does anything unless you're topped off or actively getting healed.*Soul eater is a self heal, not mitigation. Honestly the drk op are probably going aren't poping cd's or aren't in grit or something. The class has very good defensive capabilities that the vast majority of their user base ignore.

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And 2! Grit and Defiance offer the same damage reduction but Deffiance increase HP restored by 20% and boost max HP by 25%! So unless I'm missing something what dose Grit have over Defiance?

Defiance doesn't reduce damage taken, that's what your missing.

ohhh I see, pretty sure it did but just checked and now it doesn't. welp you learn something new everyday.

I came for a Bismarck complaint post and was really disappointed

I find that I take more damage on purpose because I can stay out of grit longer.

I find this to be a fair tradeoff. The point of healers is to heal, after all. As long as I am not making the healer panic I don't feel anything is wrong with being squishy.

99% of tanking is gear as well - if you don't have the armor you're going to get hit for a lot regardless.

Even if DRK had a shield that is less than 10% mitigation vs autoattacks...not even close to noticeable. And its cooldowns are almost identical to the ones PLD has.

So I would wager its

1. Undergeared.
2. Not using grit when he should
3. Personal bias.

NOT anything to do with DRK as a class.

The average DF DRK when levelling was undeniably squishier than the other two tanks for me after levelling PLD, then WHM and AST. They have lower physical mitigation so that's part of it I think, particularly when they try to do larger pulls they get bursted down much quicker than the other two tanks, and the only time I ever lost a tank due to my healing potencies just not being there was with a DRK in DPS accessories in The Aery on my AST, and he had only pulled 2 groups. With boss fights and such I didn't see nearly as much issue, but bossfights are usually less hectic on a healer than large trash pulls. Large pulls are the most heavy and constant physical damage.

I've said it before, watch their MP and their Darkside buff, because if they're losing those freuenty they're usually extra squishy players, which I suspect is just a sign of player ability.

OP, it might be that your gear just needs a boost. What is your ilvl?

As for keeping them alive--utilize regen. The second you see their AoE enmity builder go off, throw regen on him, don't wait for HP to start dropping. Regen will help prevent their HP from dipping and diving, and you can balance it out with Cure I, hitting Cure II only when HP is lower. On larger pulls if you can get off a Holy, I recommend doing that twice for the stun, and more for the DPS if you feel safe (If my tank is extra squishy I'll swiftcast my first Holy)

How are you healing a monk ability?
Oh! You mean Dark Knights.
That would be DRKs...

There's another post about this with exactly the same issues - DRK seem incredibly squishy for no discernible reason. When the DRK is less than lvl60 this is mainly due to the gear they have to choose from but why some, and it is only some, are a HP sink at i160+ I have no idea.

Because Dark Knight us still a relatively new job, a lot of people who level dark have low level gear and are generally low level for the dungeon in itself. Most other tanks in the same dungeons are level synched, thus their stats are vastly different and is probably the reason to this topic.

DRK don't really have any sort of special weakness. Their armor is comparable to the other tanks, and grit is the same as shield oath. They don't get blocks, but they parry a lot, so that might even be equal in terms of RNG physical mitigation, I'm not sure.

You're just running into newer players. People not familiar with tanks, in vendor gear, not popping their cooldowns liberally, probably not positioning well.

Personally I've always found newer paladins to be the most difficult to deal with. They don't get shield oath until way after the others, and their threat generation is less solid.

If there's anything that Dark Knights lack compared to their other tanking brethren, it's passive mitigation, so to speak. Ignoring each tank's stances...

Paladins get their shield and can thus block a fair amount of physical damage. They also naturally Blind enemies while generating AoE enmity.
While tiny, Warriors will be getting some bonus Parry (2% per Wrath stack, I believe) by just performing their basic rotation in Defiance.
Dark Knights get... nothing. Zero, zilch, nada.

So, if your tank barely ever uses their defensive cooldowns, then it isn't particularly wierd that Dark Knights may seem weaker (and I don't know about your experiences, but a tank popping so much as a Rampart is a serious contender for a commendation to me). They have no passive mitigation besides their tanking stance bonus, while the other two at least get something by playing the bare minimum. Dark Knights need to regularly use their cooldowns, else they're mitigating less than the other two tanks. :p

I know 40 to 50 was rougher on drk to level in dungeons due to no relic armor the other two tanks have. As far as mitigation their skill set is very similar to pld.

I can't speak with any real authority on it, but I'm told that tanking with DRK at 60 is way different than tanking at 50, so there remains a possibility that it was just built differently? Like it's not a full set pre-60? I can't say for sure, I'm still only 35 DRK myself.

I do notice however that WHM and AST have a harder time healing DRK, while as a SCH I really don't have half the problems they do. Perhaps they just interact better with a mitigation healer? It's hard to say.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

DK's are fine, some might be a bit new to tanking, but the job itself works fine.

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I never said they weren't. Thanks for not reading the thread. I said the DK tanks I've gotten seemed to be doing things right but I'm having difficult keeping them up so what am I doing wrong?

My HW healer-leveling experience has been that if I get a new tank, I spam heals sometimes. If not a new tank, DRK or otherwise, I don't have to heal outside of Divine Seal and regen maintenance. PLDs tend to be a seem a bit less squishy by default, unless they assume as much and forget to CD/dodge.

The only thing to do 'better' with DRK tank is probably to think about their two-stage defensive CDs (DA-DD), which can seem more delayed than they ought to since some don't like to double-weave, and their Souleater self-heals, but frankly it won't feel reliable unless you've seen them open a couple times already (so... when you're on the last boss) and watch their animations. I tend to just remember when they're likely to die if they dropped tank stance and put up no CDs, and the rest of the time only aim to keep them within a DA-Souleater of full health, which saves me some mana for when I really do need to Cure II spam (usually on dps standing in AoEs). And... try to remember how many CDs they have. If you see Dark Dance and Shadowskin both up, and they're only taking physical damage, that's not going to leave them with much reliable damage reduction for the next 90s; also, assume they'll likely pop Shadowwall (30%) after the going gets rough, giving you enough time to save them but mitigating less than you'd hope.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

As for keeping them alive--utilize regen.)

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I do use regen. It's my most utilized spell (I keep the others up with regen while I'm spamming the tank.) As for Cure 1, I couldn't. The damage he was taking was greater than what Cure 1 healed. That was my problem with going OOM. I know that. But Cure 1 just wasn't doing anything. He dropped so fast. With my scholar, I had the buffs and the fairy heals and shields, and all that. I level my scholar to 60 first and I don't remember DKs being so hard to heal on my Scholar. But in a dungeon lower than level 50, I don't have Benediction and regen is my only insta-heal.

That's my biggest problem. It's that huge drop of HP. It's so sudden and random. They'll be up at 100% HP and suddenly they're at 15% HP, and it's a scramble to get them back up. Maybe this is a WHM problem though. Just the way the class is set up.

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Originally Posted by Alisi

I never said they weren't. Thanks for not reading the thread. I said the DK tanks I've gotten seemed to be doing things right but I'm having difficult keeping them up so what am I doing wrong?

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Point is beyond PLD's being a little more "easy" to heal, DRK's are healed just like the other tanks their is no reason you should have any problems healing them over other tanks. And the title "Oh, God, DRKs" make it sound like DRK's are having major problems tanking. However without watching you play outright no way to tell what you or the DRK is doing wrong.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

Point is beyond PLD's being a little more "easy" to heal.

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I've never thought of PLDs are being easier to heal. Actually, I find warriors to be easier to heal and I'd take them any day over a PLD.

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Originally Posted by justinjarjar

And the title "Oh, God, DRKs" make it sound like DRK's are having major problems tanking. However without watching you play outright no way to tell what you or the DRK is doing wrong.

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I authored this after finishing yesterday's daily leveling roulette, as I said in the post, so yeah, I was mentally going ARG! If I wanted to complain about tanks who can't play their class, I would've gone to the tanks section and not the healer section. I was banking on the collective experience of my fellow healers to give me tips because I feel really bad about wiping in below level 50 dungeons. I suppose I should've put the 'I don't think the tanks were doing anything wrong' bit in caps with bold and blinking text. That's my bad. =P

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Originally Posted by Alisi

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Just pointing out that your title alone is misleading, something like "had problems healing DRK in leveling roulette" would be more appropriate. (and yes we all have tank prefs overall thou a good tank is a good tank) Overall use your Hots and mana regen cooldowns, sometimes spamming cure 2 (which you should have tried cure 2, cure 1, cure 1, cure 2, etc.). Biggest thing to do is use cool downs sooner than later. If it is still making you go oom either the pulls are long or the tank is not using cool downs well. Biggest thing to do is try to not just spam cure 2 over and over again and mix in some cure 1's. If you are not able to do that either the tank needs better cooldowns or gear or you need better gear (which if you are going synced should not be a problem).

Any tank can be stressful to heal if they do not rotate cooldowns properly, be it warriors, Paladins, or Darknights. (Paladins being the most forgiving)

Really this should be labeled "Oh god, tanks!" It really isn't a job thing but a player who doesn't play their job at a basic level.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

defiance barely does anything unless you're topped off or actively getting healed.

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This is false.

Defiance provides the same eHP as Shield Oath and Grit. Even without healers.

There is one small drawback, which I'm not going into right now, because it's not relevant.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

Really this should be labeled "Oh god, tanks!" It really isn't a job thing but a player who doesn't play their job at a basic level.

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While true, the reason I think it's more pronounced for drk is you have a lot of people playing it because it's drk, not because they want to tank. They have terrible gear, don't rotate cooldowns, think grit is bad cause it lowers their damage etc. It is true any tank can fail, drk as a job is attracting a lot more people who have no business tanking.

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Originally Posted by Alisi

I do use regen. It's my most utilized spell (I keep the others up with regen while I'm spamming the tank.) As for Cure 1, I couldn't. The damage he was taking was greater than what Cure 1 healed. That was my problem with going OOM. I know that. But Cure 1 just wasn't doing anything. He dropped so fast. With my scholar, I had the buffs and the fairy heals and shields, and all that. I level my scholar to 60 first and I don't remember DKs being so hard to heal on my Scholar. But in a dungeon lower than level 50, I don't have Benediction and regen is my only insta-heal.

That's my biggest problem. It's that huge drop of HP. It's so sudden and random. They'll be up at 100% HP and suddenly they're at 15% HP, and it's a scramble to get them back up. Maybe this is a WHM problem though. Just the way the class is set up.

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My WHM getting to 60 didn't have problems going oom, and always had the necessary potency for the type of pulls I encountered in DF with DRKs/WARs/PLDs, not to say it was always easy or that I never let someone die but those were my own derps, and I noticed squish with DRKs specifically with trash mobs, bosses/trials seemed fine. On AST I lacked the potency once to keep up a DRK on a pull.

For you, it sounds like an issue where the tanks were consistently biting off more than they can chew and it's just bad luck on your part to see it so often, or the healer was undergeard (but I think you were sync'd down for some of this?) In any case if you know you're going to be depleting MP quickly, don't wait to pop SoS, the sooner you pop it the sooner you get it back and if your MP never refills then SoS wasn't wasted.

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That's my biggest problem. It's that huge drop of HP. It's so sudden and random. They'll be up at 100% HP and suddenly they're at 15% HP, and it's a scramble to get them back up. Maybe this is a WHM problem though. Just the way the class is set up.

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Actually i found WHM to be one of the better healers especially pre 60 and 50 content (completely my opinion) because early on you get skills like presence of mind, SoS and the Healing potency one sorry its been a while lol but when i was lvling my WHM the only problems I had was the early forms of WAR and PLD mainly cause of how hard it was for PLD to keep argoo at early lvls and how squishy WAR was at early lvls but as long as you utilize those helping hand skills you will be fine a WHM can heal almost about everything to full in a short amount of time so I am not saying that you are doing something wrong but maybe you might have over looked a skill or two, and with swift cast you should never really have a problem.

Couple of things I'll add as a healer main that was leveling DRK, and plays tanks regularly even in raid content.

I will say the job in the hands of a "new tank" that is unprepared is probably the worst thing that can happen . Like if they never leveled GLD or MRD for cross-class skills, they don't have the smaller cooldowns like Convalenence and Bloodbath which you know as a healer can help a lot at lower levels.

DRK does start out with Dark Side skill buff, it adds 15% damage even while in grit. There is a skill rotation to keep regaining MP after getting aggro. If the DRK isn't keeping this up, that means they are doing puny damage to the mobs, and that means more healing for you. There is no reason not to keep this skill up at all times, if they don't they are not playing their job right. This is another contribution to "Why am I healing more?"

By Cutters Cry they should have Soul Eater combo, while under grit the damage they do under this will be regained as HP. Kind of like Warrior's Inner Beast. If they aren't using this skill as part of the dps combo, it's less potency and that means less heal.

So basically a good tanking/dps rotation can help the healers a lot as you can see here. Combine with the simple cooldowns from cross-class GLD/MRD and using DRK's cooldowns like Shadowskin for bigger pulls there really shouldn't be any difference with healing. I just think it comes down to these new tanks that have never played the role before, and/or don't have the cross-class skills, and/or don't have their rotations down to help mitigate damage.

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Originally Posted by LucentLagombi

What? For one grit is better than defiance, defiance barely does anything unless you're topped off or actively getting healed.*Soul eater is a self heal, not mitigation. Honestly the drk op are probably going aren't poping cd's or aren't in grit or something. The class has very good defensive capabilities that the vast majority of their user base ignore.

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Haver to agree with this..most don't even know they have a damn blind. It is sad when me as healer know more bout the tanks job than the tank does. Pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Lemuel81

Any tank can be stressful to heal if they do not rotate cooldowns properly, be it warriors, Paladins, or Darknights. (Paladins being the most forgiving)

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But drk and war are the worst offenders. Im trying to level my alt as an ast and the job is fun despite obvious glaring healing issues. Lately I've been running into these tanks who just don't use cooldowns at all. During the entire dungeon run I may see 1 or 2 but they aren't even in any proper order. Made me seriously reconsider healing as an ast because on bad tanks your are only mitigating damage.

Im just fed up with DR now and jut going to do it for the dungeons i need and fate grind because the amount of effort that some people have is questionable.