DPS problem...SOLUTION!

Maat. brought to us in FFXI


Job specific 1v1 fight that makes you use your job correctly to defeat him. People learn their jobs, win.

Forget it! not a dps fix. A horrible player fix. cant get past maat? sorry bro. git gud

Also needs to be mandatory for all jobs. unlike ffxi

Healer maat = npc you have to keep alive against maat for a certain amount of time
Tank. = keep maats hate while you also have to pop cooldowns at proper times to avoid certain death
DPS= beat the tar out of him. not enough dps.. not a win.

edit: you cant do final dungeons/raids until defeated. no over gearing.

They nerfed steps of faith so people didn't have to learn how to play the game. So the chances of them doing this is unlikely. Sorry bro, the carebears are taking over and nerfing our game into the ground. It's sad to see honestly. I really enjoyed 2.0 but was really disappointed in 2.55 when the devs started swinging the nerfbat like a 12 year old at a pinata convention. I was hoping 3.0 was going to kind of reset things but nope, they still swinging the hell outta that nerfbat. I have a feeling I'm just going to start transitioning to playing other games with my time. FFXIV is starting to become pointless and boring with no real challenges in sight except alex savage IF you can put up with a static.

There are about five threads like this on the first page.

And no, they aren't going to implement an idea that causes 75% of players to unsubscribe in their first month. You want to play with the best, make a group of the best. Be as exclusive as you want. When you join duty finder, you are agreeing to play with the greater player base.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

They nerfed steps of faith so people didn't have to learn how to play the game.

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They nerfed story content that was mandatory for people who want to play the $30 expansion.
Shouldn't you be complaining about the nerfs to coil? You know, the actual difficult content made for serious players? Steps of faith had nothing to do with learning your class or being good at your in-game role. It was a one-and-done story fight with artillery mechanics that had no significance on being a good player.

Okay, unless you are raiding, there isnt much of a DPS check in this game. Is there really a need to rush here to the forums bitching about every lil thing? There have been countless topics bitching about every role lately. I'm fairly certain we dont need 10 more today do we?

If people do have a problem with a player not correctly playing the job, then POLITELY offer advice. I say politely because 99% of the advice I've seen given is just some rude remark to a new player who is just trying to enjoy the game.

That content you don't like seeing people fail at is the DPS learning mechanism... It's just that people seem to have a huge issue with being a part of the learning process.

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Originally Posted by Kret

Maat. brought to us in FFXI


Job specific 1v1 fight that makes you use your job correctly to defeat him. People learn their jobs, win.

Forget it! not a dps fix. A horrible player fix. cant get past maat? sorry bro. git gud

Also needs to be mandatory for all jobs. unlike ffxi

Healer maat = npc you have to keep alive against maat for a certain amount of time
Tank. = keep maats hate while you also have to pop cooldowns at proper times to avoid certain death
DPS= beat the tar out of him. not enough dps.. not a win.

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Steps of Faith for me was fun and fine. I do like a Maat fight as that was such a great part of FFXI and it really did make people learn how to play but it was also flawed. I do however like your way with the healer/tank/dps setup.

Part of doing good dps isn't just being able to do high dps on a training dummy. Its during a boss fight where you have to preform mechanics, dodge aoe and at the same time keeping high dps up. Most people know their rotations but they suffer when it comes keeping their rotation up while dodging stuff.

So basically, do the job quests. Doesn't seem to fix the problem though. DPS is dependent on gear so people will just out gear it. Also they added echo in the job quests because they didn't want to hold back people who sucked.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

That content you don't like seeing people fail at is the DPS learning mechanism... It's just that people seem to have a huge issue with being a part of the learning process.

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The problem is they don't learn. They whine on the forums about how hard things are until SE nerfs the content so they don't have to actually learn anything. The duty finder is largely pointless for a lot of content simply because so many people refuse to even try to improve and thus groups are incapable of clearing content. A lot of groups will wipe once and disband, and it's usually the 'bad' players that leave first when they realise this group can't give them a free carry.

Some form of solo content that forces players to engage with their job mechanics and try to better themselves would work well as a gating mechanism for access to endgame content. They wouldn't need it for access to roulettes or other content where their impotence won't wipe the group but a skill-based check of sorts to unlock raid content like Alexander in the DF would be a good thing. They would have no reason to rage if they can't clear the gate because they wouldn't be able to handle the content that it gates anyway. Something akin to FFXI's Maat fights would be ideal for this.

How about stop worrying about your DPS as a tank so we can actually hit as hard as we want?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I was hoping 3.0 was going to kind of reset things but nope, they still swinging the hell outta that nerfbat.

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They haven't nerfed anything in 3.0. Half the population can't beat EX Bis, much less Ravana. Hell, a good number of the population can't even pass A1 and A4 (normal).

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

They haven't nerfed anything in 3.0. Half the population can't beat EX Bis, much less Ravana. Hell, a good number of the population can't even pass A1 and A4 (normal).

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Every week theres a new hotfix that makes something easier. Last week was Alexander drop rate, this week it's red scrips. We are barely even a month into the game, and they making adjustments to everything. Alexander normal itself is a nerf, it's there so people don't have to pull up their big boy britches and do the hard one.

We are back to this...eh...?? No matter what, the game is fun for me...if players have a hard time with content I try to help them to the best of my ability and offer advice if they want it. There is SAVAGE for those who want a tougher challenge...I think there is a good enough balance in this game to keep everyone entertained.
I think what they should do is have a MAAT fight challenges and if you can beat them you get a "special" job ability that only those who can beat these trials can get...this would be awesome and by doing this there is something to strive for and incentive to really get good at each job you play.

[QUOTE=Mikedizzy;3212944....if you can beat them you get a "special" job ability that only those who can beat these trials can get...[/QUOTE]

I think you will only get maat cap... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Cedri

How about stop worrying about your DPS as a tank so we can actually hit as hard as we want?

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I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here since STR tanks generate more hate than VIT tanks. o.O

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Every week theres a new hotfix that makes something easier. Last week was Alexander drop rate, this week it's red scrips. We are barely even a month into the game, and they making adjustments to everything. Alexander normal itself is a nerf, it's there so people don't have to pull up their big boy britches and do the hard one.

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Increasing the number of drops =/= making content easier.

Alex Normal isn't a nerf... it's specifically for people who just want to play for the story. They gave us Alex Savage for those looking for challenge. If we didn't have Savage and only got normal, THEN you could claim it was a nerf.

Ridiculous, irrational hyperbole is just that.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The problem is they don't learn. They whine on the forums about how hard things are until SE nerfs the content so they don't have to actually learn anything. The duty finder is largely pointless for a lot of content simply because so many people refuse to even try to improve and thus groups are incapable of clearing content. A lot of groups will wipe once and disband, and it's usually the 'bad' players that leave first when they realise this group can't give them a free carry.

[...]

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I've seen plenty of experienced players drop the drama bombs and leave after one wipe as well. People seem to look at the new people they get stuck with each time as the same new people even though they aren't, and then feel like people "never learn".

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Originally Posted by Seig345

I've seen plenty of experienced players drop the drama bombs and leave after one wipe as well. People seem to look at the new people they get stuck with each time as the same new people even though they aren't, and then feel like people "never learn".

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This is far less common, and it's usually experienced tanks that do this because they know they can quickly get another queue pop. Most experienced dps and healers tend to stick around for a few attempts at least in my experience.

My main point though is that a lot of these bad players make no effort to actually improve. If I do Alex 4 and wipe to a specific mechanic because someone did something wrong I'll explain it to them on the next attempt and they will often STILL mess it up by outright ignoring what I just explained to them. That's if I'm lucky as well; half the time they'll rage that they would rather do it their own way which wipes the group every time and then get stubborn about it and simply refuse to engage with the fight's mechanics properly.

In A4, when someone gets the three lasers targeted on them for other players to intercept the easiest way to handle that mechanic is to have the targeted player stand still so others can get in position. Despite explaining this mechanic after multiple wipes I have seen the same people run around with the lasers time after time. That is a bad player with zero care for improvement. Those players do not learn and are nothing but a hindrance in the duty finder. Some kind of solo content that blocks them from the duty finder for raid content until they demonstrate they can actually do more than die constantly would save both them and everyone else a lot of hassle.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

They nerfed steps of faith so people didn't have to learn how to play the game. So the chances of them doing this is unlikely. Sorry bro, the carebears are taking over and nerfing our game into the ground. It's sad to see honestly. I really enjoyed 2.0 but was really disappointed in 2.55 when the devs started swinging the nerfbat like a 12 year old at a pinata convention. I was hoping 3.0 was going to kind of reset things but nope, they still swinging the hell outta that nerfbat. I have a feeling I'm just going to start transitioning to playing other games with my time. FFXIV is starting to become pointless and boring with no real challenges in sight except alex savage IF you can put up with a static.

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steps of faith wasn't a dps check it was a mechanic check. You actually had enough dps and only needed to land all the dragon killers.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

[...] My main point though is that a lot of these bad players make no effort to actually improve. If I do Alex 4 and wipe to a specific mechanic because someone did something wrong I'll explain it to them on the next attempt and they will often STILL mess it up by outright ignoring what I just explained to them. That's if I'm lucky as well; half the time they'll rage that they would rather do it their own way which wipes the group every time and then get stubborn about it and simply refuse to engage with the fight's mechanics properly. [...]

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What's to stop them from lapsing back into their "okay, the other players will cover for me, I'll just do my thing" mentality after clearing these job lessons? Mechanics typically differ in timing, pattern, and variety as well, so unless you intend for there to be a "solo job-learning mode" for each raid's boss mechanics, who's to say that these people who aren't willing to learn will suddenly change their ways because of one required trial?

The idea proposed in the OP seems to be a solution for people who don't know their role; however, not knowing your role and refusing to learn your role are two different issues. It seems to me like the people who would benefit from the lesson the most are the people who would in fact listen to advice given during a raid, whereas the stubborn idiots will do whatever they have to to get through the prerequisites (as already being done by meeting the ilvl requirement) and then continue on with their stubborn ways.

On the japanese forums there's a topic about things they never want to see added to the game. Maats are one of them.

I had a Maat's Cap 'back in the day' before they trivialized leveling (mtultiple times). Maat wasn't even remotely challenging. There were some gimmicks that were easy to get around by various methods for several jobs, but that was basically it. Also, there were tons of people at 75 that were still terrible at their jobs regardless of having cleared Maat, so it didn't really keep the baddies at bay, or whatever it is you're hoping will happen with this idea.

As some other people have mentioned, if you want super pro groups, make one. Otherwise, don't expect every DF or PF player you run into to be super pro. I'm pleasantly surprised when I get good groups in DF, and when I don't...well, that's just part of the experience with MMOs. Everyone comes from different gaming backgrounds, and you aren't always going to be matched up with people with skill equal to yours.

Because we needed another one of these threads.

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Originally Posted by Kret

Maat. brought to us in FFXI


Job specific 1v1 fight that makes you use your job correctly to defeat him. People learn their jobs, win.

Forget it! not a dps fix. A horrible player fix. cant get past maat? sorry bro. git gud

Also needs to be mandatory for all jobs. unlike ffxi

Healer maat = npc you have to keep alive against maat for a certain amount of time
Tank. = keep maats hate while you also have to pop cooldowns at proper times to avoid certain death
DPS= beat the tar out of him. not enough dps.. not a win.

edit: you cant do final dungeons/raids until defeated. no over gearing.

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Mast was pretty much face roll for Sam. Go in, meditate, wait, pop food, start fight, WS, 2hr,WS ,WS, meditate, WS, WS bye maat.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Because we needed another one of these threads.

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This is when we all start making threads about a system that's the opposite of commendations (which people beg for, gimmick for, and otherwise just get due to playing a specific role... therefore meaning absolutely dick other than the achievements and glamor items) that players will surely abuse to "downvote" players that simply don't agree with their ideas or styles. Bad players are everywhere, and in every game, and as much as they piss me off when I come across the stubborn ones already discussed in this thread there is absolutely no way to ever get rid of them in your DF or PF groups. We're also never going to get away from people bitching about the tanks that drop from the group knowing they have a quick queue. Now, if only we could just have players take an aptitude test before even being able to buy the game... that'd surely work. /endsarcasm

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Originally Posted by Kret

Maat. brought to us in FFXI


Job specific 1v1 fight that makes you use your job correctly to defeat him. People learn their jobs, win.

Forget it! not a dps fix. A horrible player fix. cant get past maat? sorry bro. git gud

Also needs to be mandatory for all jobs. unlike ffxi

Healer maat = npc you have to keep alive against maat for a certain amount of time
Tank. = keep maats hate while you also have to pop cooldowns at proper times to avoid certain death
DPS= beat the tar out of him. not enough dps.. not a win.

edit: you cant do final dungeons/raids until defeated. no over gearing.

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They did that for WoW and it failed horribly. Same thing would happen here and personally i would rather have them spend the time and money elsewhere instead of on something proven not to work.

well a lot of it has to do with the new rotations to keep up those time dependent buffs it just takes practice but I notice a lot that ppl in this game want others to know everything before they can learn and if they don't know they are deemed "not a serious player" I witness a horrible tank in rav ex bagging on another drg about his rotations when he could have simply politely told the drg that using the whole IDC4 Inbetween rotations is more affective then TTT4 all the time....someone said it best 99% of the time the problem is with these so called "serious players" who are unforgiving to new players cause let's face it you can be 60 in a matter of 8-12 days with continuos playing of course so some are still learning 3.0 rotations.

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Okay, unless you are raiding, there isnt much of a DPS check in this game. Is there really a need to rush here to the forums bitching about every lil thing? There have been countless topics bitching about every role lately. I'm fairly certain we dont need 10 more today do we?

If people do have a problem with a player not correctly playing the job, then POLITELY offer advice. I say politely because 99% of the advice I've seen given is just some rude remark to a new player who is just trying to enjoy the game.

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Me - "Excuse me, I noticed you are casting fire 1 and blizzard 4 alot and not using fire 4, did you kno-"

Mage - "I know what I'm doing, not every mage spam fire 4 for damage, blizzard 4 does the same damage"

Me - "But you are not doing enough damage and that's whats causing the wipes, I'm trying to help you"

Mage - "Stop telling me what to do, I know what I'm doing, worry about yourself"

From then, that's when the nice goes away and I end up telling them to shove it and learn to play their class and /kick them out of the group. There are people that just WON'T improve their dps/gameplay for the group thinking they can be carried. A WoW mortally from LFR.

"Why aren't you casting Fire 2? We need some AOE in big pulls,"

"Because fire costs less mana and do more damage,"

"Yeah but things die faster with AOE,"

"SHUT UP AND LET ME PLAY THE WAY I WANT!!!!111!!!"

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

On the japanese forums there's a topic about things they never want to see added to the game. Maats are one of them.

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Link please

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

Me - "Excuse me, I noticed you are casting fire 1 and blizzard 4 alot and not using fire 4, did you kno-"

Mage - "I know what I'm doing, not every mage spam fire 4 for damage, blizzard 4 does the same damage"

Me - "But you are not doing enough damage and that's whats causing the wipes, I'm trying to help you"

Mage - "Stop telling me what to do, I know what I'm doing, worry about yourself"

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I look at the endgame BLM rotation and paaaaniiic!! I'd have really welcomed that kind of advice, not offensive at all. I'd really love a tool for personal parsing and progressional rotation that helps me memorize said rotation pre-50, where I can slot in new skills as I go (and practice in low level dungeons/dummy) I'll never do endgame content cos I just don't have good hand/eye co-ordination, but I really enjoy learning rotations and when/how to use them correctly :D Working on BLM and MNK at the moment, so much fun :)

The average response I get from DF/PF DPS players when I try to help them is "I know how to play, I just don't feel like doing that much work in a 4man dungeon/learning group/farm party/literally freaking everywhere where it shouldn't be necessary to focus that much on the game."

The problem is the game and social systems reward dead weight party members who leech intentionally with few repercussions outside of their tight-knit raid groups, not that there's "bads" everywhere. 90% of the content you do allows you to clear with dead weight DPS, dead weight healers who get pissy about cleric stance despite idling for 90% of the dungeon with nothing else to do, and dead weight tanks who don't use their defensives to keep the healers relieved / non-threat generating combos that contribute to damage / etc etc. despite their aggro lead being the size of a continent :V

outdated republican dad mechanics like maat or terrible trials like steps of faith aren't going to fix "bad players". they'll just try hard to pass those things and coast and mooch off you in the endgame dungeons and trials that don't matter to them :V

the solution is to socialize with your party members when they do something wrong, attempt to correct them, and if they're turds about you doing so vote dismiss them or leave or whatever it is you do to deal with pugs being jerks, and stop allowing players to lazy-coast assuming it's just a variation in skill level

I'd like to see the monk quest where a dude thrusts his butt at you so you can do rear positionals.

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Originally Posted by Kret

no over gearing.

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How would they do that? Furthermore how would they balance it? Players have different ilevels at different levels, not to mention skillsets. Not all classes are balanced perfectly between levels 1-15.

IMO they should just give a tutorial like they did with the single player FF games. Explain what CD's are, what the different roles are, oGCD's, how to use them, etc and give objectives on using them correctly in order to play right. For example, a BRD would be taught about oGCD's and DoTs then taught to perform a Venomous Bite > Bloodletter > Heavy Shot combo so they'll at least know what their rotation will be like and hopefully learn how to adapt new skills into it as they level. Later on maybe another quest where they join a battle they cannot win unless they replenish an NPC healers MP.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

I'd like to see the monk quest where a dude thrusts his butt at you so you can do rear positionals.

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Ok that really made me LOL, its my lala alt that Im learning MNK on,spend most fights in danger of being sucked up between boss' butt cheeks as it is :/ Having Hamon Holyfist wiggle his wrinkly butt cheeks at me be just too much :(

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Originally Posted by Vespar

Okay, unless you are raiding, there isnt much of a DPS check in this game. Is there really a need to rush here to the forums bitching about every lil thing? There have been countless topics bitching about every role lately. I'm fairly certain we dont need 10 more today do we?

If people do have a problem with a player not correctly playing the job, then POLITELY offer advice. I say politely because 99% of the advice I've seen given is just some rude remark to a new player who is just trying to enjoy the game.

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When "Bismarck Ex clear" parties fail again and again due to not meeting the DPS checks, making it impossible to get the quest completed, then something is wrong.

Would love to see a Maat type fight! Also nice to have something to show people their job can be played at a higher level. Nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

I'd like to see the monk quest where a dude thrusts his butt at you so you can do rear positionals.

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You got that dragoon FATE with the spiked butt. Good enough?

FFXI was a very unique game as it went on when it came to solo content. The 70 Maat fight was the bane of many peoples existence. Be it because of the fight itself or the need to farm for the testimonials. Then there were things like the mini-trials for SMN. Honestly, these solo content stuffs really showcased how good you were at the game, and not just as the one job. Gear, for the most part, did not make or break you in the sense that you needed the best to beat it. They always helped at least a little, but it still fell upon your own ingenuity and skill to react. No one that has passed a SMN mini-trial can deny how it teaches you about emnity (threat management), position and timing, etc. Likewise, for most jobs, the Maat fight taught you how to properly handle your jobs core abilities. Be it that Maat himself played it to a point that would destroy you or that you had to use core skills/spells to beat him before he (again) destroys you.

Better idea-

Don't tie this fight to progression of the character. Instead, give each job a 'star' related title (remember genkai was breaking stars), maybe a minion per job and a mount.

Level and ilevel synch the fight.

That's right. I'm suggesting they put an awesome reward behind a solo fight that 90% of the players may not beat. Completely optional. Nothing required.