One potential solution to the parser 'problem'

Now it's pretty clear that parsing is viewed as a taboo subject not only by a considerable portion of the player base, but also by SE. Simply adding in full fat parsing for players to use as they like will alienate some people for sure and that's not something SE want either.

Now the immediate solution that springs to mind would simply be to add feedback to FC and personal house dummies but at this stage I'd say that SE aren't keen on the idea, likely that it just doesn't fit in or will be inaccessible to too many people. The trouble is, much of the content at 60 requires people to play at a certain standard and many simply fail to come even close. Whilst for sure, with some people it's simply a case of them not caring, for many I'd wager they simply don't understand where or why they are going wrong as the game provides very little feedback on how well you are actually performing with several jobs being pretty much impossible to optimise via anything other than a separate parser.

So, here's a different idea that just struck me..

Put a 'parser' of sorts in as a Gold Saucer mini game. Simply making an algorithm that works out each classes potential DPS at a given item level/weapon damage and offer up a sliding scale of targets for the player to aim for that's customised to their gear. Offering up modest MGP or even Card rewards for optimal DPS numbers would be all the motivation needed to get people trying it.

This would also allow you to simulate pretty much any mechanic or situation and make it part of the mini game without seeming clunky or out of place, add in some markers to dodge? Multiple targets for Aoeing?.

Something like this would go a long way to helping people without access or the desire to run a parser to optimise their play and work towards the sort of standard of play much of the content in this game asks of them. It also won't interfere with actual content or allow people to use those numbers as ammunition against others as the feedback would be entirely personal and private.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Or they can enable a build-in parser selectively - i.e. It's only available in non-DF dungeons.

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At this stage it's pretty safe to say that there is a reason that they haven't implemented this. Likely Yoshi doesn't want an easy way for the player base to 'demand' specific numbers and targets out of everyone regardless of how casual they may be.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

So essentially, you want a parser, that only displays vague data?
While I'm not a fan, it totally fits SE's Modus Operandi.

However, the problem with this negative outlook on parsers is based purely on anecdotal evidence. In WoW, and other mmos, I've always used parsers as a method of comparing what I did wrong and right as far as damage (there are detailed breakdowns available in all) when comparing to other classes in the same encounter.

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Oh I'm totally with you in this regard. My idea isn't aimed at you or I though.

The way I see it, this is aimed at the casual player who maybe only plays a few hours or simply doesn't play at the sort of level that more progression orientated people want. The sort of person who doesn't understand of keeping dots or self buffs up, let alone optimal rotations and such. They might well get called out for subpar DPS as they start to dip their toes into the end game and currently, they have no legitimate option for even attempting to figure out what they are doing wrong (e.g. figuring out dot damage is a horrible mess and time stamps are far too vague to get a handle on self buffs such as greased lightning). Putting something like this in would present these sort of players with some means of getting a handle on how far off the mark they actually are. The systems are already in place as demonstrated in PvP and it's simple enough to take those numbers and simplify the results down to a simple A-F style score.

The next step could be to reference the results against a weighted table to offer feedback for that person, failing combos? Dots failing off? Self buffs not being kept going? All super easy to prioritise and and turn around into some words of encouragement with their score. Keeping it fairly vague (aka no hard and fast numbers) is precisely as you say, it absolutely stops people from using it as ammo against others and allows the results to be tailored to different jobs, a monk might be expected to dish out 1200dps to get that A*, whereas a SCH is going to be about half of that. Again keeping it fairly vague neatly sidesteps the ever unpopular topic of tanks and dps accessories by keeping hard and fast numbers out of sight but giving feedback that gives them an idea of the difference they can actually expect to see in encounters.

As stated at the start, this is not a concept aimed at someone working on Alex savage, these people will without fail be working with full fat parser data be it directly or indirectly. This is squarely for the sort of person who is fairly new to MMOs and level cap content and actively wants to start upping their game. Dressing it all up as a saucer mini game is simply a far more enticing carrot than a random dummy sat somewhere <3

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Originally Posted by zipzo

Hahaha, so you want to put the silver PG in FFXIV? I'm all for it! I'll get the popcorn!

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No not at all, this is purely an optional extra on the side with simplistic feedback and reasonable targets to aim for. No gating content behind it at all.

The idea isn't to put another barrier in the way of players, but rather put a tool in place for those that want to up their game without buying a PC or breaking the TOS

Mind you, something in line of the proving grounds would be a far better system than the guildhests we have in place now.... But that's a topic for another thread!

Like those punching strength games. You punch the thingy, and it rates your score.

Except taken to an entirely new level. I wouldn't mind it, but Parsers would still be a thing though. It wont change. You'll never get as accurate results on a fight that cant be 100% simulated. And I doubt they'd make a way to simulate every fight in the game where DPS matters.

It would help though for things like dummy parses however, especially for those on consoles.

I didn't come into this thread with high hopes, but this idea is actually truly ingenious.

I like it.

The brilliant part about this is you wouldn't even have to display the DPS numbers. It would just calculate your optimal/potential DPS and then adjust the timer of whatever activity accordingly.

Nice idea OP.

If they implemented this it would be a week at most before there were crys to nerf it.

Don't get me wrong I like the idea. I can just imagine the echo being added :p

I fully endorse this.

I'd like a mini-game like this in manderville, just so when you want to do something but there's no people queueing, or when the party finder is dead, you can do some stuffs you can solo and still have fun without being "grindey".

Your idea sounds like a lot of fun, and could be just the sort of thing needed to allow some people measure their dps without introducing a parser, which we all know the devs are against

An idea I had, was that there could be a weekly tournament, where anyone could hit a dummy for x minutes, and then have a leaderboard, by class, with the top 3 getting some mgp or whatever. I think it would be quite popular with people currently progressing on AS1-4, but more importantly it might just inspire some people who are still working on their rotations if they could see the sort of numbers they could be putting out. Anyone not making the leaderboard would not appear at all, so there would be no pressure on anyone. the only downside I could see would be the leaderboard people getting inundated with tells asking questions, so I suppose an option to remain anonymous, with just your dps score showing, could be considered. Though on Marlboro, I know some of the people that are putting out good numbers, and I'm sure if they were to be on the leaderboard they'd def want the bragging rights of having their name shown :)

This could be a truly abysmal idea, but just something I thought of lol

I don't think a sliding scale for ilvl would work well, A complete buff that ignores your gear and gives everyone the exact same set (0 crit?) would be best.

I'd love the idea of a leaderboard with the number one dps of each job getting a fancy coat (job resticted but same for each job) or something each month.

O_O can we have this already?!

Yep.

*signs*

The problem is not knowing whats going wrong.
If you stand in the fire everyones gonna know, if you mash keys as a "rotation" people can't really see it.

Ehhh, high hopes here, honestly. This is like more than ten times the work and half the usability of an actual parser. Really, the only solution is to just allow parsers. At this point in the game, with the overload of DPS checks added in HW, it's silly not to have one. And if you get kicked from a group because your numbers are low? Get better, or reach out to people that will help you improve.

Amazing idea OP. I'm all in for it! I still want the dummies to give some feedback and the job quest to teach you the ABC of your job but your idea is both useful and fun! Can I look forward to it please?

Ths sounds like a really fun idea!

Love the idea, but one problem...

SE: "This is a great idea, but because of servers it will cause too much stress"

That's just parsing by another name, and Wild Star already tried a similar system only to have it backfire in the players' faces.

If we need parsers, its best if they are not integrated into the risk/reward mechanics of the game.

*signed* /10char

I find this agreeable.

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Originally Posted by Remus

Love the idea, but one problem...

SE: "This is a great idea, but because of servers it will cause too much stress"

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Obviously. Have you seen the pictures of the infrastructure?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5146/...0d7eba22_b.jpg

This is actually a really nice idea, gives consoles players a chance to refine their own rotations when dpsing and find what works best for them so they can #getgud

Hahaha, so you want to put the silver PG in FFXIV? I'm all for it! I'll get the popcorn!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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Something like this would go a long way to helping people without access or the desire to run a parser to optimise their play and work towards the sort of standard of play much of the content in this game asks of them. It also won't interfere with actual content or allow people to use those numbers as ammunition against others as the feedback would be entirely personal and private.

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Or they can enable a build-in parser selectively - i.e. It's only available in non-DF dungeons.

So essentially, you want a parser, that only displays vague data?
While I'm not a fan, it totally fits SE's Modus Operandi.

However, the problem with this negative outlook on parsers is based purely on anecdotal evidence. In WoW, and other mmos, I've always used parsers as a method of comparing what I did wrong and right as far as damage (there are detailed breakdowns available in all) when comparing to other classes in the same encounter.

It is also a tool to see where improvement can be made, unfortunately SE does not offer an alternative metric for measuring a DPS class's (or tanks now too) performance.

The third, and least popular reason, is that it lets you identify weak links. While I know you may like to be nice, if there is a DPS that is pulling the same Damage as your MT or Healer, they are clearly not doing their job.

When tanks mess up its obvious.
When a healer misses a heal or ooms, you know it.
When a DPS messes up, currently, you only find out 5-10 minutes into a boss fight when you hit an enrage, an add doesn't die, or they stand in fire. All of these, aside from the last, are hard to pinpoint issues. It is not fair to people playing their class properly have to share the blame, or carry, someone that is not able or willing to do the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Or they can enable a build-in parser selectively - i.e. It's only available in non-DF dungeons.

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At this stage it's pretty safe to say that there is a reason that they haven't implemented this. Likely Yoshi doesn't want an easy way for the player base to 'demand' specific numbers and targets out of everyone regardless of how casual they may be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

So essentially, you want a parser, that only displays vague data?
While I'm not a fan, it totally fits SE's Modus Operandi.

However, the problem with this negative outlook on parsers is based purely on anecdotal evidence. In WoW, and other mmos, I've always used parsers as a method of comparing what I did wrong and right as far as damage (there are detailed breakdowns available in all) when comparing to other classes in the same encounter.

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Oh I'm totally with you in this regard. My idea isn't aimed at you or I though.

The way I see it, this is aimed at the casual player who maybe only plays a few hours or simply doesn't play at the sort of level that more progression orientated people want. The sort of person who doesn't understand of keeping dots or self buffs up, let alone optimal rotations and such. They might well get called out for subpar DPS as they start to dip their toes into the end game and currently, they have no legitimate option for even attempting to figure out what they are doing wrong (e.g. figuring out dot damage is a horrible mess and time stamps are far too vague to get a handle on self buffs such as greased lightning). Putting something like this in would present these sort of players with some means of getting a handle on how far off the mark they actually are. The systems are already in place as demonstrated in PvP and it's simple enough to take those numbers and simplify the results down to a simple A-F style score.

The next step could be to reference the results against a weighted table to offer feedback for that person, failing combos? Dots failing off? Self buffs not being kept going? All super easy to prioritise and and turn around into some words of encouragement with their score. Keeping it fairly vague (aka no hard and fast numbers) is precisely as you say, it absolutely stops people from using it as ammo against others and allows the results to be tailored to different jobs, a monk might be expected to dish out 1200dps to get that A*, whereas a SCH is going to be about half of that. Again keeping it fairly vague neatly sidesteps the ever unpopular topic of tanks and dps accessories by keeping hard and fast numbers out of sight but giving feedback that gives them an idea of the difference they can actually expect to see in encounters.

As stated at the start, this is not a concept aimed at someone working on Alex savage, these people will without fail be working with full fat parser data be it directly or indirectly. This is squarely for the sort of person who is fairly new to MMOs and level cap content and actively wants to start upping their game. Dressing it all up as a saucer mini game is simply a far more enticing carrot than a random dummy sat somewhere <3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zipzo

Hahaha, so you want to put the silver PG in FFXIV? I'm all for it! I'll get the popcorn!

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No not at all, this is purely an optional extra on the side with simplistic feedback and reasonable targets to aim for. No gating content behind it at all.

The idea isn't to put another barrier in the way of players, but rather put a tool in place for those that want to up their game without buying a PC or breaking the TOS

Mind you, something in line of the proving grounds would be a far better system than the guildhests we have in place now.... But that's a topic for another thread!

I think instead of adding overly complicated "solutions" they should just go ahead and add add-on support like they said they would back at launch and let the players sort it out. I'd rather not see them waste development time on something to prevent a tiny number of players from getting their feelings hurt by jerks who are probably gonna be jerks with or without a parser.

Well, you sort of got your fix. Stone, Sky, Sea. Which I'm not sure anyone actually uses anymore. Sure you can get high numbers on a stagnant dummy, but how does that relate to an actual encounter. Standing still and doing a rotation does not correlate well with moving around and doing mechanics, while doing a rotation.

Yes implement parsing so we can easily identify the plebs and kick them out of our parties^^

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Originally Posted by TroySoFab

Well, you sort of got your fix. Stone, Sky, Sea. Which I'm not sure anyone actually uses anymore. Sure you can get high numbers on a stagnant dummy, but how does that relate to an actual encounter. Standing still and doing a rotation does not correlate well with moving around and doing mechanics, while doing a rotation.

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I'm genuinely confused as to why a 6 year old thread was dug up from the grave.

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Originally Posted by Cincierta

I'm genuinely confused as to why a 6 year old thread was dug up from the grave.

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Nercomancer should be outlawed i tell you.

Parsing is kind of a complicated issue because it's both a player problem and game design problem rolled into one, and it's been around ever since this style of game was first created. Effectively, the only way to make parsers obsolete is to make the rotations easy and intuitive to pick up, with just enough buttons to them to make sure they are not too boring to play. Thankfully, the game lets people play multiple jobs so it's a lot harder to get bored on a simpler rotation than something like WoW, where you got one class and you basically have to master that one class.

They successfully managed to do it with a few jobs like Machinist and warrior, but warrior also illustrates how delicate a balancing act this can be.

There are no parser problems.

Anyone with a brain can see DPS is crap without a parser, and who is doing a bad job. When you see a SAM with a 50% uptime on it's DoT, you don't need a parser to tell you anything.

The easiest mid-way solution would be to have a sort of tug o war with an NPC for aggro.

Lock the iLv to something like 100, then just you and an NPC fight a mob. If the NPC has aggro, some bar builds up (or his hp goes down).
Either a) at the end of x time who has aggro longest wins or b) when the bar is full (or empty hp), the fight ends.

..so it’s either a race for aggro or a kind of time trial.

Make it so every 30 sec the NPC’s potency increases until it becomes impossible to keep aggro from him.

No need for a specific score...but maybe “I survived Maat2.0 for 2 minutes!” is fine?


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As is in game, the aggro numbers and bars where the party list is honestly enough information for myself. If I’m #7 or 8… I want to diagnose the problem. If I’m top 4, I can safely assume for the situation I’m in, everything is fine. I know that’s not a really good tool of dps measure, but for my purposes it works.

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Originally Posted by TroySoFab

Well, you sort of got your fix. Stone, Sky, Sea. Which I'm not sure anyone actually uses anymore. Sure you can get high numbers on a stagnant dummy, but how does that relate to an actual encounter. Standing still and doing a rotation does not correlate well with moving around and doing mechanics, while doing a rotation.

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Stone sky sea was a weak addition yeah, the numbers it asks aren't even particular relevant to the fights they are tuned for either. It's really more a test of Can you do your rotation for X minutes and do you have enough gear? and even that's a stretch.

The Yojimbo gate is is really closer what I had in mind. That but combined with a wider variety of mechanics to do and a side of having to DPS/Heal through it would be amazing.

I really think that a personal parser is the way to go
E.g. get a score card at the end of a fight / dungeon about YOUR DPS ONLY and a grade based on where your DPS should be