Something about Aymeric and House Fortemps (HW Spoilers)

Heavensward Spoilers -

Why would Ser Aymeric and House Fortemps immediately believe the truth about the Holy See? 1000 years of the See feeding Ishgard bullshit about the Dragonsong War and what caused it, and a story from a newcomer (although famous) to the city, who obtained the info from the opposing side convinces them otherwise? Not even a "You've been fooled by the dragons' illusions and trickery." or "You expect me to believe our protectors have been lying to us since the beginning?"? Just... "Ok, Warrior of Light. I'm going to talk to the Archbishop about this. If I don't come back, attack the Vault and rescue me." I get that the characters believe executing Aymeric would've shown the true colours of the Holy See, but how many people wouldn't just say "I can't believe Aymeric was a heretic."? 1000 years of religious crap should show a lot more in the city than what was shown.

I just assumed that because of Fortemps' unique position and view on ishgard politics, they, or at least Count Edmond, has always held doubts about the See's validity. Leaning on foreigners when others don't could have been a relatively recent thing, bringing some different perspectives. Aymeric probably knew things weren't right from day 1, and the WoL presented an opportunity to air out some very dirty laundry.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

I just assumed that because of Fortemps' unique position and view on ishgard politics, they, or at least Count Edmond, has always held doubts about the See's validity. Leaning on foreigners when others don't could have been a relatively recent thing, bringing some different perspectives. Aymeric probably knew things weren't right from day 1, and the WoL presented an opportunity to air out some very dirty laundry.

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I guess so. The only ones who seem fanatical are the guard and that crazy baroness. I'd assume even the Heavensward knew about what truly happened. Still, they didn't even question it. I guess they were just waiting for any opportunity to confront the Archbishop. Maybe they already knew but weren't completely sure until the Warrior of Light confirmed it?

Estinien, the Azure Dragoon also confirmed what you said. They will definitely believe him without question, especially after slaying Nidhogg

Its kinda like Planet of the Apes (the original classic). The elder apes knew about their past and tried to suppress it from the general populace, anyone who questioned it would be deemed heretic, so no one did. Until....... Ishgard society was content, some minor upheaval but easy to contain. Why throw a wrench into the works, its been working this long? until.....

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Estinien, the Azure Dragoon also confirmed what you said. They will definitely believe him without question, especially after slaying Nidhogg

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Even that's still kinda strange since he was shown to always want to kill dragons for a while. The thing is that no one thought it was an illusion to turn Ishgard's most powerful allies against them.

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Originally Posted by SpookRooster

Even that's still kinda strange since he was shown to always want to kill dragons for a while. The thing is that no one thought it was an illusion to turn Ishgard's most powerful allies against them.

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The war did not ended after all. Don't forget that.

It would be a pretty far fetched illusion. But the point is that Estinien did confirm what the WoL said and the WoL already had pretty solid trust with both Aymeric and House Fortemps. More to the point, wether they believed or not, rumors were almost certainly going to start spreading among the lower classes and now Nidhogg was dead, the Dragonsong war seemed likely to start to reach an end. That common enemy had kept most of the tensions between the classes supressed due to the necessity of survival. With that necessity gone there now held great potential for major civil unrest. Aymeric saw this and knew that any action would have to be taken sooner rather than later to avoid bloodshed in the streets.

Its worth also noting that Estinien's true hate was for Nidhogg and for very specific reasons. He wasn't a fan of dragons but he didn't outright hate them, particularly after he learned and saw what he did in the Churning Mists.

The church was not pure nor holy. The lower classes suffered a lot and lets don forget Ser Aymeric's origins.

There's no way to know for certain (except Dev insight) but I would wager they trusted us because we, personally, are vaunted heroes who have shown ourselves to be absolutely trustworthy (minor psychosis during the DRK 30-50 line notwithstanding), and we had Ishgard's famed Azure Dragoon as well as Louisoix's grandson to verify our story.

Plus, House Fortemps seems to be pretty down to earth unlike all the other high houses (though what I've seen of House Haillenarte is pretty grounded as well). Aymeric is also someone who prides himself on being able to discern intentions; if you were lying, I bet he'd notice.

In addition to us being a big help: Estinien and Alphinaud returning home with Nidhogg slain likely played a large role in that. Its not like we were only out there on the journey either, we went back and forth dicussing how the journey was going with others.

Aymeric's detention likely was the final nail in the coffin on if the See was hiding something for its own interests. 1000 years of false dogma, dicovered by a outsider, would probably kill the church's trust and authority.

Now we just need an "outsider" to visit our world to dispell all religious bullcrap.

The echo never lies and you've built up enough trust with them that they will believe you.

Also Estinien has said on a number of occasions that Nidhoge has more than enough power to take out Isgaured with his entire hord but was content with just staying in his den.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Now we just need an "outsider" to visit our world to dispell all religious bullcrap.

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The WoL didn't dispel all religious stuff from Ishgard. Even after the reveal Fortemps and Aymeric are still faithful worshipers of the Fury. Infact even Lucia, who's origins lean towards atheism, seems to be a follower of Halone. The whole thing was really more political rather than religious. There will likely be a new Archbishop in the end.

We just broke open the entrenched 'corruption' within Ishgard. The Archbishop, for all his flaws, did have a point though. This whole mess is as much the fault of the Horde as it is the leaders of Ishgard. While misguided, there is a logic to the approach they took. Nidhogg forced a situation where the people of Ishgard were trapped by a sin they had no say over and hadn't actually committed. It seem to be a theme with dragons to be trapped dwelling on the events of the past at the cost of the future. That's not to say they weren't wrong. But there actions were driven by more than simple self interest. In many ways the heretics were as wrong as the leadership of Ishgard.

RL religion is generally not a good thing to bring up in lore debates. It tends to derail discussions and upset people.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

Now we just need an "outsider" to visit our world to dispell all religious bullcrap.

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We already have outsiders visiting us--ascians. People still firmly believe in the Twelve after encountering them. Even speaking about Hydaelyn as if she had a corporeal form, even though only Echo users can see her and by all accounts it is still a forbidden thing.

People will still believe in Halone even if they're told an Ascian-possesed hyur led them to dragon land.

I honestly find it funny that the WoL is still considered trustworthy at this point. I myself is of the firm belief that by this point in the story the WoL is a knife's edge from suffering a psychotic break. Figure by the time they get to Ishgard, he/she/it has killed 7 godlike beings, 1 supermech, an entire legion of the Garlean Empire, countless daemons, numerous dragons and destabilized at least 1 city-state. And that's in the main story alone, not counting Crystal Tower, Coils, and harder versions of said godlike beings.......For that matter, how in the world did they even gain entrance into Ishgard in the first place? Disaster just seems to follow them wherever they go.

1. Estinien confirmed our story
2. Aymeric and House Fortemps were already on good terms with us following the events in Realm Reborn
3. As Alphinaud points out, crazy as the story is, it takes very little to prove. Just a sip of Dragon's Blood to show you were descended from one of the original Houses.

I got the impression that Aymeric went to Thordan to confront him about this even further, knowing that Nidhogg was dead and the Dragonsong War potentially over so if it WERE true there would be no need to lie to anyone anymore. It's worth pointing out that after he bombed off pretty much everyone in the room agreed that it was a foolish, even stupid thing to do. Nobody said "YEAH EVERYONE IN ISHGARD IS SUPER GOING TO BELIEVE THIS AND EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE." Turns out that concern was warranted since Aymeric got tortured inside the Vault for bringing this mess up.

The Warrior of Light actually does suffer a minor psychological breakdown... if you do DRK 30-50. It's artificially induced and not like a normal breakdown, but... yeah.

Everyone trusts us because they have to. We're the only one who can do the things we do, so unless they can save their own damn selves they have no choice.

I'd like to suggest the following in order:

1: The Echo. The whole world knows the scions have members who wield it, most world reknown being the Warrior of Light, upon whom has slain primals, stopped the Garlean invasion, and the like. Having the Echo, it's known the WoL can view the indisputed truth of the past... (and potentially manipulate it, thanks to a cutscene from Cid). And thanks to this, he can't be tainted by primals, which leads us to two.

2: Estinien. On top of this, we got Estinien, the Azure Dragoon. The WOL can vouch he wasn't tainted by a primal during their lil soiree out of town. This guy's so famous just being there is a sign of relief to Ishgard. So what would happen if the Azure Dragoon, the biggest Dragon-racist in all of Ishgard, suddenly is singing a different toon and the WoL is saying "Nope, not tainted"? Of course, you're gonna need a doctor to put your eyes back in your socket. Which leads to three.

(Continue)

3: Aymeric: This guy is to Ishgard as The Rock is to the WWE. Everyone loves him. He stands up for the normal people, has high, outstanding morals, and despite his birth has not let it change who he is, but better himself from it. Even "Frey" respected Aymeric and his ability to lead, not to mention he's gotten Garleans and Dragons to respect him. So then, if he is faced with the reality, he of course is going to think the truth when all the dots connect compared to that mess that he had in front of him before! Only people who hate him are the Pope and his merry men.

With Aymeric's support, of course people are going to accept this as the truth. His position to everyone, from the common to even some of the rich, puts him in a favorable position.

Overall, the Echo is just that solid a game maker. And if someone with an echo is talking about a lost past, you'll believe 'em.

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Originally Posted by Vartio

I'd like to suggest the following in order:

1: The Echo. The whole world knows the scions have members who wield it, most world reknown being the Warrior of Light, upon whom has slain primals, stopped the Garlean invasion, and the like. Having the Echo, it's known the WoL can view the indisputed truth of the past... (and potentially manipulate it, thanks to a cutscene from Cid). And thanks to this, he can't be tainted by primals, which leads us to two.

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No, no one really knows about it. And even those who have heard of the Echo barely know what it can do (heck, *we* don't either)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

No, no one really knows about it.

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And if they did we would be viewed as the villain Teledji Adaledji made us out to be at the banquet.

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Originally Posted by Minfilia

(...)I pray you heed these words: those with your gift are oft shunned by those who do not understand it. To most, you will be perceived as a kind of voyeur, violating the innermost sanctums of the soul. If you are caught, you will be punished. You may even be killed. And there will be no one to protect you.

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Okay, I am very surprised that none of you had brought this up, so I am going to contribute. Have you guys ever thought of the fact that the ENTIRE Heavenward storyline, from Coming to Ishgard to Heavensward, is just a recorded story? All that we as WoL do, or rather did were written down as part of Count Edmount de Fortemps' memoir. Each time we entered a new area of HW content you get a short CS of Count Fortemps narrating in past tense. So, in a sense even though we are in control of our characters and accomplishing all the fantastical feats in "real time", truth is, we are simply re-enacting what is recorded in Count Fortemps' narration.

Hence, this is why everything appeared so... "staged", because Count Fortemps probably abridged most of the bickering, arguing, threatening, politic-ing in his recorded account. For all we know, there was probably a whole lot of disbelief and mess when WoL revealed the "Truth". But instead of putting all of the ugly stuff in (and potentially made House Fortemps look bad), Count Fortemps conveniently "forgot" to mention the complication involved and went with "Oh, we simply accepted the 'Truth'" route.

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Originally Posted by Heavensword

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I'm surprised there is an argument at all.

Of course Aymeric and House Fortemps took your words into consideration. You are already on good terms with Aymeric after Steps of Faith/Keeper of the Lake/the whole Heavensward story up until that point. He's the one that held off the counter attack on Nidhogg so you could go out and try to find another solution. House Fortemps considers your words because a son of House Fortemps thinks very highly of you (and in other languages is in love with you). To add to all this Estinien the Azure Dragoon, by no means an ally to dragons, confirms your story.


So Aymeric goes to confront his father about it, is accused of heresy, and is locked up and tortured in the Vault. I think it's reasonable to believe that the two "factions" within the city who trust us most would believe us, after all we've never lied before and Estinien was there for all of it. Nobody else in Ishgard knows about it yet but I'm willing to believe there will be a bloody fallout once that reveal is made and low born rise up against the Houses.

I guess what I'm getting at is this isn't an issue of "the world believes you" it's "your two biggest allies believe you".