I think raids are missing a "Normal" mode

From what I've heard (haven't stepped into Savage yet) Savage is meant as the hardest of dungeons, for the most elite.

That's fine, that's great! I'm sure a lot of people are certainly excited for the challenging content. I am too, once my FC gets our butts in gear and seriously buckle down.

But there isn't um, any content for the "mid tier" or "semihardcore" raiders.

Alex Normal I'm sure we can all agree is essentially LFR. Great for gearing up, puggable, but not really something you sit down with your FC and can feel challenged or satisfied running.

For a while Ravana EX was the pretty challenging, satisfying content for the nonelite, but now that's gotten old too (not to mention it is one boss...).

So I'm here twiddling my thumbs because I don't really have any content to tackle. Am I wrong in thinking A1S is almost not puggable? From the dps requirements to the new mechanics it seems it is designed as the "heroic/mythic" type of raid...without any sort of middle ground between LFR and heroic.

Perhaps another crystal tower is coming soon, but if that is another pugfest LFR then I still feel SE is missing a lot of the potential raider demographic.

3.1 raid (please be excited)

Why not tackle a1 savage and maybe even a2? For raid turns they are fairly easy, especially since we can do it 25 ilvls below max ilvl, it's only gonna get easier and easier. Particularly next Tuesday when everyone gets ilvl 200 weapons. Giving us the HM was quite helpful in terms of A1. Mechanically it doesn't get much more demanding, just harsh on dps atm.

Honestly, if u can do ravana and alex hm with no problem, I see no reason not to go ahead with savage A1. it does take a bit of time and commitment though, which is pretty hard to get in an mmo...

Truth is, there just isn't a lot of current pve content in ff. Savage is great but it's kinda static-times only. Pretty bored outside of that apart from daily expert, which is obviously boring at this point.

3.1 will have a 24 man raid. But it's likely not going to satisfy this impossible want you've developed in your head.

Despite what you think, the EX primals and Alex Normal ARE the "midcore" content. The issue is you've learned the mechanics and if you play with other people who know the mechanics (your FC) it's "easy". That's just how raids work. Even Savage will eventually be "easy" for groups once they get the mechanics down.

The Expert dungeons are the "casual" content, for lack of a better term. EX and Alex Normal are the "challenging" content... and they were (and still are for some) challenging for awhile. There are still groups that wipe and Vote Abandon on A1 and A4. But as I said, once you become comfortable with the mechanics, even challenging content will become "easy". Your best bet at this point is to challenge Savage 1 and 2.

Alliance raids and EX primals are this game's mid-tier content. There's not much else they can do for mid-core players as of now besides adding more of the same.

From what I've heard, "savage" is basically what Coil normal was in ARR.

As people gear up in Esoterics the savage Alexander floors will get significantly easier to pug. The hardest part of A1S for example is the dps check. Alexander Savage is no more difficult than normal coil was pre-3.0/echo from what I can tell.

This lack of stuff to do goes back and forth I find, in 2-3 months when 3.1 is released all the hardcore players who currently have stuff to do will be asking the same question as the OP because there will only be a new mid tier raid and no new savage until 3.2.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

From what I've heard, "savage" is basically what Coil normal was in ARR.

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It basically is. Going into A1S with i180 gear is pretty much equivalent to BCoB Turn 1 with i70 gear.

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Originally Posted by Heskett

It basically is. Going into A1S with i180 gear is pretty much equivalent to BCoB Turn 1 with i70 gear.

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Indeed. So people who did Coil shouldn't be afraid of Alexander just because SE decided to tag "Savage" onto the name for whatever reason. It's not the Savage Coil from 2.0.

This game has content for the super elite world first progression teams that take a week off work to down OR... you can faceroll and sleepwalk through content. That's it.

I agree that this game lacks challenging content for "midcore" players.
Ex primals are too easy, AlexSavage is too hard (what's hard is to commit to a game like that, organise, find skilled players etc, only people with nothing but work and gaming can really do the newest raids)
We need something in between alexsavage and the ex primals.
What about harder dungeons, I don't understand what the point is of adding dungeons that you can faceroll the second they are released.
Give us EX dungeons please :c

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

Give us EX dungeons please :c

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they can't figure out how to itemize it. Pharos was just a little hard and no one did it cause the drops weren't worth it.

if they make EX dungeons they have to put stuff in there that people will actually want to go.

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Originally Posted by Heskett

It basically is. Going into A1S with i180 gear is pretty much equivalent to BCoB Turn 1 with i70 gear.

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actually savage in 180 is like bcob in ilvl 60. (210-30 = 180) (90-30=60 ) Tis why we bully our poor healers atm for deeps xd. Though that is a little inaccurate too considering the enormous jump between 180 and 190 gear.

Going t1 at ilvl 70 was perfectly acceptable without heal dps required.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

they can't figure out how to itemize it. Pharos was just a little hard and no one did it cause the drops weren't worth it.

if they make EX dungeons they have to put stuff in there that people will actually want to go.

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Honestly I'd do it for rewards like minions, rare mats or just for the fun.
I mean it should almost be raid hard but with 4 people. Soo tight dps checks and hard mechanics.
Something for smaller groups of friends to work on

Alex normal isn't for the middleman. Alex normal is way to easy. If Alex normal is for the middleman they need to make it harder then it is. The way I see it Alex normal is Alex for beginners. With Alex savage being Alex for the HC and those who can get statics. I agree with you op. I think se needs to in the future make a raid that is in-between what they call normal and savage.

funny stuff- all ive seen this past year is boo hoo SCOB/FCOB we cant clear it cuz X reasons, why cant we have a story mode. SE released Alexander NM which is supposed to be a story version so everyone can be included and now i see i havent stepped into savage but boo hoo normal mode is too easy.

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Originally Posted by repoe

funny stuff- all ive seen this past year is boo hoo SCOB/FCOB we cant clear it cuz X reasons, why cant we have a story mode. SE released Alexander NM which is supposed to be a story version so everyone can be included and now i see i havent stepped into savage but boo hoo normal mode is too easy.

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lol people will never be happy, incoming savage nerfs :P

How we can get midcore content when people cried even because of Steps of Faith? Pharos Sirius? Chrysalis? Etc.
Every time when there is a fight that expects more from you than just attacking the boss, people start waving with their social life, job and family. :D

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Originally Posted by repoe

funny stuff- all ive seen this past year is boo hoo SCOB/FCOB we cant clear it cuz X reasons, why cant we have a story mode. SE released Alexander NM which is supposed to be a story version so everyone can be included and now i see i havent stepped into savage but boo hoo normal mode is too easy.

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This.

I think savage is harder than under-geared coil without echo honestly. I would say it's harder than savage coil also IMO. At the current ilvls anyway. Not necessarily mechanically hard but the healer and dps checks can be pretty crucial at times. 25k unmitigated damage tank busters and 6200+ team dps checks arent anything to scoff at. Most of the dps/tanks I've seen just from pugging practice on raid off days can't even put out the dps to even clear faust.

I absolutely loves every second of it though I'm not going to lie and I congratulate Square for putting out something that challenges players to this degree.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

I think savage is harder than under-geared coil without echo honestly. I would say it's harder than savage coil also IMO. At the current ilvls anyway. Not necessarily mechanically hard but the healer and dps checks can be pretty crucial at times. 25k unmitigated damage tank busters and 6200+ team dps checks arent anything to scoff at. Most of the dps/tanks I've seen just from pugging practice on raid off days can't even put out the dps to even clear faust.

I absolutely loves every second of it though I'm not going to lie and I congratulate Square for putting out something that challenges players to this degree.

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Those 25k unmitigated tank busters and 6200+ team DPS checks very easily become more feasible when your average ilvl goes from 185 to 206. Savage's difficulty mechanic-wise is about par for Coil. Once people are geared from esoterics you'll see a lot more clears.

Alex Savage will seep into the mid-core difficulty once your gear catch up, I would think. Trying to tackle it before getting any eso pieces will definitely push number checks and performances to your limits ,but it's also in a way that it'll get progressively easier as time passes due to gearing up via esos or clearing previous floors (unlike say SCoB).

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Originally Posted by Heskett

Those 25k unmitigated tank busters and 6200+ team DPS checks very easily become more feasible when your average ilvl goes from 185 to 206. Savage's difficulty mechanic-wise is about par for Coil. Once people are geared from esoterics you'll see a lot more clears.

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The dps checks are fairly easy if you are playing your jobs correctly. Faust is easily downed at 180 and ravana weapons with a group who understand their dps. But this is the entry level trash for the raid. It will get harder down the line. But IMO personally speaking I think this is harder than the other coils unnerfed with entry level gear from my experience that I have had with them. Of course over gearing the content will make it easier with time. At that point it becomes a mechanical chanllenge as opposed to a straight hp/dps check.

seeing as how they have not adjusted anything in SCOB savage, released alexander NM that we will not see any echo( and should not ) for Alex Savage

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Originally Posted by repoe

seeing as how they have not adjusted anything in SCOB savage, released alexander NM that we will not see any echo( and should not ) for Alex Savage

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Wishful thinking I'd say, I'd really love to believe the same thing but the difference between coil and alexander is that the rewards are better in alex savage than nm. If people are already complaining about the difficulty of Savage when most haven't even gotten any esoterics gear I say it's only a matter of time until Echo. I'd give it 6-8 months, as much as I don't want to see it happen at all they seem to cater to people who complain about difficulty more than people who enjoy it.

I personally don't think there will ever be echo in savage.

I hope they never add echo to Alex Savage. Isn't that the whole point of have the Normal mode? What people seem to forget is that we aren't at the "minimum" entry gear requirements yet. Remember with Coil we had Darklight gear which was only 20 ilvl below gear drops. I think the bare minimum ilvl the fights were intended for is probably i190 - i195 for A1. Its the reason we are only seeing the top elite groups get clears.

Get 2 or 3 pieces of esoteric gear and I think A LOT more people will start clearing.

And before people say elitist want to keep casuals out....I am a casual player due to work restrictions. i want it to stay hard so that when I get a chance to get it there. I'm not dealing with a watered down snooze fest.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Wishful thinking I'd say, I'd really love to believe the same thing but the difference between coil and alexander is that the rewards are better in alex savage than nm. If people are already complaining about the difficulty of Savage when most haven't even gotten any esoterics gear I say it's only a matter of time until Echo. I'd give it 6-8 months, as much as I don't want to see it happen at all they seem to cater to people who complain about difficulty more than people who enjoy it.

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It might be the best rewards for now, but in short while, current Savage raids are going to become obsolete. Given that the experience is all that Savage is truly good for, from a universal aspect, it's not too unheard of to leave it as is without Echo. Likewise however, it wouldn't be unheard of to add it lol. I guess it's really a 50/50 thing. Doesn't really matter by then, bottomline. We'd have access to gear that would make it significantly easier to beat. Adding an Echo to it wouldn't be as Earth shattering when you look at the situation as a whole. Would be nice if they never do, but yeah... whatever.

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Originally Posted by repoe

funny stuff- all ive seen this past year is boo hoo SCOB/FCOB we cant clear it cuz X reasons, why cant we have a story mode. SE released Alexander NM which is supposed to be a story version so everyone can be included and now i see i havent stepped into savage but boo hoo normal mode is too easy.

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I personally disagree with the sentiment and don't think it is "easy" at all.

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Originally Posted by repoe

funny stuff- all ive seen this past year is boo hoo SCOB/FCOB we cant clear it cuz X reasons, why cant we have a story mode. SE released Alexander NM which is supposed to be a story version so everyone can be included and now i see i havent stepped into savage but boo hoo normal mode is too easy.

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Exactly. To me, Alexander Normal is the very definition of "midcore" content. The DPS check is there, but it's not too steep. Even with the minimum gear level, as long as people are actually doing the mechanics right you'll get through it. If they aren't, however, you're in for a bad time. The mechanics are pretty simple and don't get thrown at you at a breakneck pace. It took maybe a couple of hours total to figure out the mechanics for all four turns. This means the more casual players can learn it and get through it without having to invest a massive amount of time because it's quite doable in Duty Finder. Players that do this content in a static on a weekly basis are going to find it exceedingly easy, especially now that we're starting to oveargear it.

The thing is, "midcore" covers a lot of ground. A lot of people seem to have a sort of a weird stigma against calling themselves either casual or hardcore, so they just end up just lumping themselves together in the middle. "Midcore" is going to contain everyone from people that play at their own pace but have all the time in the world to former hardcore raiders that now have real life commitments so they're in a time crunch. If SE implemented another tier of content, they'd just get more complaints. "They should do another tier exactly like this but with a lower DPS check." "They should do another tier exactly like this but with less mechanics." "They should do another tier exactly like this but purple." No matter what they do, people will always find a reason to complain.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

I hope they never add echo to Alex Savage. Isn't that the whole point of have the Normal mode? What people seem to forget is that we aren't at the "minimum" entry gear requirements yet.

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I'm pretty sure we will get Echo eventually. Alexander Savage is the equivalent of BCoB/SCoB/FCoB, not the equivalent of SCoB Savage. Alexander Normal is basically a Raid Lite™ for the masses to have a story mode.

Instead of dismissing savage completely, why not have you and your FC mates at least try at it?

The difficulty of savage is about the same difficulty as the regular Coils. If you guys have raided coil at all in ARR, then you will be fine there.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Alex Normal I'm sure we can all agree is essentially LFR. Great for gearing up, puggable, but not really something you sit down with your FC and can feel challenged or satisfied running.

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I feel that the normal raids here are actually equal in difficulty to the current normal raids in WoW.

LFR in WoW is actually harder than normal because you have to deal with:

a) 25 people to manage
b) half the group afking through the entire thing
c) half of that half have no idea how to play their class.

Normal ends up being more breezy than LFR because there's less player error, everyone knows how to play their class, and you only have to manage (at least) 10 people.

Alexander Savage is basically the same thing as unnerfed Coil was in 2.0

For example first Alexander savage has very simplistic mechanics, its only really a test of how well people can dps and know their dps rotations. Its only hard because people are trying to clear it below the min ilvl which is 190. When the casual mid core players get gear with esoterics it will not be as hard.