Why AST Using MP Refresh Below 33% and Still Going OOM Not a Surprise?

The answer is very simple.

Think of your constant spell casting is hits you take to your HP and you never once popped a HP regen CD that has a 2 minute CD, which is the only thing you have for recovering HP. If you pop a mild HP regen as low as below 33% long before the fight is over, then you are going to die. Maybe not faster, but you will surely go OUT OF HEALTH. This could have been avoided if you had used your HP regens sooner and more often.

Now replace all the HP with MP.

Notice what I did there? It's the same thing, and it's frustrating to see other healers fail to understand MP management. Especially ASTs. AST is a complete noobtrap.

The goal is to use the MP refresh as many times as you can. The goal is to keep your resources up, like everyone else. If your in a boss that usually lasts for 6 minutes then you should have used it at least twice. It's not meant for emergencies like the Bard's MP Song. You can't be neglecting it only to use it below 33% while spamming heals every second, because the MP refresh, just like the WHM's, is weak. The constant drain will often if not always beat the Refresh, which guarantees bad effectiveness when you use it at a low threshold.

Does that mean use at 100%? NO! Going to the wrong extremes are horribly bad, and you should know better!

As an AST I never have MP issues as many ASTs love to claim and yet everytime I'm not the healer, the same thing happens everytime I'm with an AST they have issues thanks to their neglect. Some of them are even worse where some store an Ewer (MP Refresh) card only to never use it on even themselves.

I use my MP Refresh whenever I get to 66% long before the fight is over, and by the end of the fight I'm ready for another pull immediately. While many if not most of the ASTs I had the misfortune of being subjected to need breaks, after just one normal group. I'll be lucky if I see an AST that doesn't act like the very concept of MP management is new, much less have ANY faith their skill to begin with.

Outside help, such as bards are completely irrelevant for this. The game is built so that we can take care of ourselves as ASTs, because of the possibility bards are not in the party.

Why is it a popular thing to use MP Refresh at horribly low thresholds, only to fail? What loser guide did they read!? WHERE'S THE INFLUENCE!?!? WHY NO EWER!?!?!?!? WHY IS IT SO EASY TO FACEROLL AND STILL DO BETTER THAN THE BAD ONES!?!?!?!??!?

I'm going to talk as WHM. I use Shroud when my MP decays to 75%. After that, every time i have it available and my MP is 75% or lower.

It's still something. AST spells are cheaper than their WHM counter parts, but also the potency for both MP Refreshes are the same, with the same CD. :)

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Why is it a popular thing to use MP Refresh at horribly low thresholds, only to fail? What loser guide did they read!? WHERE'S THE INFLUENCE!?!? WHY NO EWER!?!?!?!? WHY IS IT SO EASY TO FACEROLL AND STILL DO BETTER THAN THE BAD ONES!?!?!?!??!?

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I agree completely - MP Refresh the first time you reach 70/75% mana and then every time afterwards.

I was healing A2 savage as AST yesterday and I actually became MP/TP support. Even harder to believe...I actually 'spread' spire due to the heavy TP group and aoe damage. Worried about my MP for the next heavy healing parts? Rolled some Ewer on myself when it was up (Even if was unbuffed).

AST just requires you to be extremely proactive - you need to think 2/3 card draws ahead and where the fight will actually be at that point in time.

(Don't get me wrong, I'd actually like to see a couple more changes to cards but it doesn't seem that bad)

Always use SoS or LA early around 75-80% so it avaiable quicker not when your almost out because it won't make a difference.

Mp refresh at 70-80 MP is a good rule for the learning curve.

With experience you can adjust to get more out of your mana. Mp is at 90% and you're going to be spamming Cure II/Benefict II or Holy/Gravity? Pop SoS/LA so you can break even at the end of it and SoS/LA will be ready again sooner. On the otherhand if it's the end of a pull and you can be at ~full mp by the time you start the next pull, save it.

Agree with op, tbh I was surprise when i read ppl comparing ast with whm and said that ast has more mp stress. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Agree with op, tbh I was surprise when i read ppl comparing ast with whm and said that ast has more mp stress. ^^;

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They do lack freecure which was a big chunk of mp management (whm wise) back on 2.x. Well, to be fair they do have a freecure now, if they cast 4 benefic II under the effect of lightspeed, although impractical, the 5th will be free.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

It's still something. AST spells are cheaper than their WHM counter parts, but also the potency for both MP Refreshes are the same, with the same CD. :)

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the ast refresh skill is 120s cd, the whm one is 180s cd

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

the ast refresh skill is 120s cd, the whm one is 180s cd

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It has the same cooldown. I think the trait reduces its CD--I don't remember, but I'm 100% certain Shroud of Saints is on a 120 second CD.

I use aetherflo--ohwait.

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

the ast refresh skill is 120s cd, the whm one is 180s cd

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Wrong. They are the same 120 seconds.

Stating AST is a newbie trap should be sort of how it is. It is an "advanced job" and should not be expected to be conseptually easy for those who just grab it without having healed at all before. Of course to some it comes easy, but it does require a bit of thinking as someone said. It's a refreshing thing.

I pop an MP refresh between 50 - 60%

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Originally Posted by reality_check

I use aetherflo--ohwait.

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I was thinking the same thing. We use aetherflow near all the time, regardless if we have used our stacks or not to avoid swallowing out MP for critical moments. Not to mention our signature spells are so gawd awfully MP expensive now.

It makes sense for AST to keep their own MP refresh up but now I understand the opinions on the contrary between AST that are having MP problems and those that say the job is very MP efficient.

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

the ast refresh skill is 120s cd, the whm one is 180s cd

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Wrong. They are the same 120 seconds.

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Just on this train of thought. Where does the misconception that Shroud of Saints is a 180s CD? It's always been 120s as far as I can recall (the trait only makes Shroud more potent, not reduce its recast). This is probably the fourth or fifth time I've heard "Shroud is 180s cooldown" on these forums since about a month before HW was released so it leads me to believe it's a much more common misconception than I thought.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just on this train of thought. Where does the misconception that Shroud of Saints is a 180s CD? It's always been 120s as far as I can recall (the trait only makes Shroud more potent, not reduce its recast). This is probably the fourth or fifth time I've heard "Shroud is 180s cooldown" on these forums since about a month before HW was released so it leads me to believe it's a much more common misconception than I thought.

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Because people Google the skill description and by default it's 180s until the WHM gets the passive trait that reduces it.

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

With experience you can adjust to get more out of your mana. Mp is at 90% and you're going to be spamming Cure II/Benefict II or Holy/Gravity? Pop SoS/LA so you can break even at the end of it and SoS/LA will be ready again sooner. On the otherhand if it's the end of a pull and you can be at ~full mp by the time you start the next pull, save it.

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This more than anything else. There's a lot to take into account with AST MP management and when you do learn all of that it's a lot easier to be in control. AST shouldn't really have a hard time with MP.

In terms of LA usage, definitely don't just use it at a certain MP level. If you think a pull or a boss is almost over just hold off on it and you'll be back at high MP levels before the next one. If you're at the start of a big pull/boss phase where you know you'll be pumping out a lot of heals, sometimes you may want to pop LA at the start so you have a good amount of mana when you're done. However this too is situational. If your group has a lot of dps and that big mob pack won't take long, you don't need the LA. If the next phase of the boss fight allows you some downtime, you don't need that LA, etc. Know the pace of the dungeon/fight and trust your own MP pool, because if you waste LA when you don't need it then you won't have it when you do.

Then there's also Lightspeed and Ewer. Ewer is just a bonus and usually not needed, but if you do get it then you can plan around that and it just makes things better (and Spear I never use on myself and you should not need to either - the tanks and several dps classes actually benefit quite a bit from this, so give it to them). Lightspeed can be useful for a few things - some fights if you need more mobility, you'll want it then, but with a short enough CD you can usually use it at the start of a fight and have it back up for that movement heavy phase. Or if you know you'll need to pump out a lot of AoE healing in a certain part of a fight, or spam heal the tank, then pop it then and take advantage of cheaper Benefic II's (where I otherwise would not have used that many Benefic II's). It's a great way to save mana, however, so that's my primary usage of it and outside of needing it for a particular phase, I try to use it as often as possible for conservation purposes.

But more than that you need to be more efficient in your regular skill usage. Keeping up Diurnal Aspected Benefic on your tank almost all the time (as long as he's taking constant damage) is a great way to save mana. No it's not as amazing as the WHM Regen, but it's the best we've got. Outside of that, I try to keep up only Benefic I spam on the tank. Benefic II is reserved for the occasion when he dips a bit further, but once he's back in safe territory I go back to my Benefic I spam. If he needs more healing than that (i.e. in big trash pulls), then double HoT the tank instead of spamming Benefic II for that duration (double HoT + Benefic I spam is more mana efficient long term than Benefic II spam. And like I just said if he temporarily dips low, use an oGCD ED in between casts and one or two Benefic II's if you need them when that's on CD, otherwise back to the Benefic I spam). If I really need a bit of Benefic II spam, Lightspeed first. Rarely should you need to use Benefic II outside of these circumstances. It's incredibly mana inefficient so avoid it at all costs.

Diurnal Aspected Helios is great for AoE healing and what I use most of the time. If people only took a small hit and won't take more damage immediately, often I'll let them regen naturally if it's so tiny - you don't need Helios for that. If one person takes a bigger hit I'll heal them up individually. Helios really I only use as a follow up to AH when there's a lot of damage going out.

And let your HoTs actually tick. Don't top people off if they have a HoT rolling and don't top them off unless your Benefic I will actually be of use (i.e. don't over heal). I've seen people say don't top them off in general, but really you should have enough mana to keep people high enough. If you're so strapped for mana that you can't afford to actually throw out one Benefic I to your dps then you're doing something wrong.

I always pop it roughly after casting a couple spells, especially if its a boss fight cus I know that it will be ready to use again, but also that I am going to need keep my MP up as much as possible.

Maybe back in the earlier days it might have been 180 seconds and one of the many patches changed it?

This is true for every part of the AST toolkit: people haven't taken 5 minutes to think about how it's best to use the spells. Whenever I see some bitching, people are giving examples of how they use skills and it's just wrong. Some even complain that the cards are not useful because dps is not going up that high. My bet is that they thought that dps was gonna jump from 6K to 7K from cards and that they would be carried by buffs and wouldn't need to improve their player skills. Back when my group was having trouble meeting the DPS check in Bismarck EX, I told my group that they need to get good, because they can't rely on cards to meet specific DPS checks; AST was never designed to carry a group with poor DPS.
On MP management, I usually use LA when 20% of my MP is spent; sometimes I use it earlier when I need to spam. It's back by the time I need it again and my MP is usually floating around 7K-9K. I also added more piety to my build, which is basically a PIE > SPEED=CRIT build.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Maybe back in the earlier days it might have been 180 seconds and one of the many patches changed it?

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As far as I remember, Shroud has always been in a 2 minute cooldown :x

Have you guys tried Celestial Opposition'ing your Luminous Aether & Light Speed in conjunction? You save SOOOOOO much mana from it @_@

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Originally Posted by Parawill

As far as I remember, Shroud has always been in a 2 minute cooldown :x

Have you guys tried Celestial Opposition'ing your Luminous Aether & Light Speed in conjunction? You save SOOOOOO much mana from it @_@

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Haven't really felt the need. I usually CO a card buff on boss fights, especially if it's AoE. Occasionally I'll try to CO an AH HoT. I've tried COing mob packs as well for double usage - after I've double HoTted the tank (or if I got lucky with a nice AoE group buff) then I'll try to extend those, while in conjunction stunning the mobs for a bit so they can dps, tank gets a break, and I can throw out a few Gravity's myself before I need to get back to healing. I'm not sure yet if this makes a big difference yet since I've only done it a few times.

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Originally Posted by Leiloni

Because people Google the skill description and by default it's 180s until the WHM gets the passive trait that reduces it.

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>.>;

*Googles, finds Gamerescape and Consolegamewiki to be incorrect*

...... I see.

*Fixes said wikis*

Anywhere else I need to go?

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

It's still something. AST spells are cheaper than their WHM counter parts, but also the potency for both MP Refreshes are the same, with the same CD. :)

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AST spells are cheaper but **heal for less**. WHM have more healing/healing increasing abilities. Comparing their MP refreshes is not a way to judge mp flow.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

AST spells are cheaper but **heal for less**. WHM have more healing/healing increasing abilities. Comparing their MP refreshes is not a way to judge mp flow.

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Benefic1 potency is 380. Cure 1 is 400.
Benefic2 potency is 620. Cure 2 is 650.

380 is 5% less than 400, and 620 is 5% less than 650.

AST sects increase speed or power by 5%.

Regen ASP. Benefic's regen is less potent, but unlike WHM regen, it does do instant healing+HoT.
Barrier ASP. Benefic's barrier can be stronger than Stoneskin's barrier. By can, Stoneskin applies a barrier =10% target's max HP, you'll likely need a crit for ASP. Benefic to outdo stoneskin on a pure vit tank. However asp. benefic will apply a stronger barrier on most others. ASP. Benefic also heals, can crit, and is instant cast unlike Stoneskin; it's also cheaper than Stoneskin too.

By default, they are just as effective as WHM, at a cheaper price.
And by default, I mean while no CDs that alter their performance were used such as a 30% boost in healing power, that WHMs have.
AST don't have a CD that boosts their raw healing power like WHMs do though.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

By default, they are just as effective as WHM, at a cheaper price.
And by default, I mean while no CDs that alter their performance were used such as a 30% boost in healing power, that WHMs have.
AST don't have a CD that boosts their raw healing power like WHMs do though.

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I'm sorry what, how are they just as effective? They have some similar skills but ast isn't more effective than white mage even in mp potency.
Let's do some comparisons shall we?
1. Aspected benefic is instant, but the hot is lower than regen from a white mage. 100 potency vs 150 potency
2. Whitemage has more oh shit buttons
3. Whitemage has divine seal, that's a huge healing potency increase while the only healing potency increase ast has is nocturnal stance and that's by 5%. Stronger heals=less mp used unless you're over healing
4. Ast has one maybe two three heals that don't cost mp besides essential dignity if you count synastry and collective unconscious which is very situational Where whitemage has tetragramation, benediction (300s cd though), assize and asylum 3 of which are instant heals and one restores mp

If you're going to compare, you have to compare the spells in all aspects:

1. Basic healing spell (GCD)
Cure: 400 potency. 2s cast (200 potency per second), 2.5 recast (160 pps).
Benefic (Diurnal): 380 potency. 1.9s cast (200 pps), 2.37 recast (160 pps).
2. Big healing spell (GCD)
Cure II: 650 potency. 2s cast (325 pps), 2.5 recast (260 pps).
Benefic II (Diurnal): 620 potency. 1.9 cast (326 pps), 2.37 recast (261 pps).
3. Big healing spell (Off-GCD)
Tetragrammaton: 700 potency. 1 min.
Essential: 400-1000 potency. 40s.
Do the same math above for every GCD spell, and you'll see that the overall healing is the same on skills like Medica/Helios and Medica II/Aspected Helios.
The two spells that WHM has access to and that AST doesn't have are Assize and Benediction. AST needs to use Swiftcast+Helios to achieve the same effect, which is fine because we have more instant cast spells and we don't need Swiftcast that often.

The calculation is more complex with Regen x Aspected Benefic:

Regen: HoT spell. 150p for 21 seconds (7t, 1050 combined).
A. Benefic: 190 heal + 100p for 18 seconds (6t, 790 combined).

There's a difference of 260 potency, but the spells work differently.
Regen:

150 + 150 (300) + 150 (450) + 150 (600) + ... + 150 (1050).

It's a spell that works in a straight line, healing for the same amount for its entire duration.
A. Benefic has the instant healing of 190 and a 100 tick within the first 3s, which means that you get 290 potency healing done in the same time Regen does 150. Like this:

290 [190+100] + 100 (390) + 100 (490) + 100 (590) + 100 (690) + 100 (790).

This means that, for the first half of it's duration, Aspected Benefic does over 60% of it's total healing, while Regen does less than 50%. This is the reason why Regen is not a viable emergency healing spell, while Aspected Benefic can heal one target for about the same as Assize in the first 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

The two spells that WHM has access to and that AST doesn't have are Assize and Benediction. AST needs to use Swiftcast+Helios to achieve the same effect, which is fine because we have more instant cast spells and we don't need Swiftcast that often.

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Don't forget Freecure, Overcure, Divine Seal, and Asylum for more mana reduced healing, plus Presence of Mind for a spell speed CD.

When all's said and done, WHM beats AST in mana conservation by a significant amount.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Don't forget Freecure, Overcure, Divine Seal, and Asylum for more mana reduced healing, plus Presence of Mind for a spell speed CD.

When all's said and done, WHM beats AST in mana conservation by a significant amount.

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Does medica also still have the 20% chance no mp cos also?

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Does medica also still have the 20% chance no mp cos also?

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Yeah, I forgot about that one.

Ya'know there's a reason why I spell out what I mean like:

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

By default, they are just as effective as WHM, at a cheaper price.
And by default, I mean while no CDs that alter their performance were used such as a 30% boost in healing power, that WHMs have.
AST don't have a CD that boosts their raw healing power like WHMs do though.

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Sometimes I just wonder why I bother, when I still get this:

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

I'm sorry what, how are they just as effective? They have some similar skills but ast isn't more effective than white mage even in mp potency.
Let's do some comparisons shall we?
1. Aspected benefic is instant, but the hot is lower than regen from a white mage. 100 potency vs 150 potency
2. Whitemage has more oh shit buttons
3. Whitemage has divine seal, that's a huge healing potency increase while the only healing potency increase ast has is nocturnal stance and that's by 5%. Stronger heals=less mp used unless you're over healing
4. Ast has one maybe two three heals that don't cost mp besides essential dignity if you count synastry and collective unconscious which is very situational Where whitemage has tetragramation, benediction (300s cd though), assize and asylum 3 of which are instant heals and one restores mp

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Clearly missing the point of my post because she's saying literally everything I had just post as to disagree with my post. You don't disagree by repeating everything I wrote in detail. And not only that, includes the CDs WHMs have that last for a very short time and won't be used and/or available most of the time.
Point 3 is especially bad: comparing a short time CD for burst healing to a sect that lasts indefinitely that must be on (I'm not saying you MUST have nocturnal on, I'm saying you must have EITHER sect active otherwise you're going it wrong). All the sects do is make your spells' effectiveness even with a WHM's spells, and I will stress this time: BY DEFAULT!

Default healing is healing without CDs. That's it.

Default doesn't include this:

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Don't forget Freecure, Overcure, Divine Seal, and Asylum for more mana reduced healing, plus Presence of Mind for a spell speed CD.

When all's said and done, WHM beats AST in mana conservation by a significant amount.

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Because you're not going to be using that or having it available for most of the time. Pop a Divine Seal, it's gone for 45 secs. Pop Presence of Mind, you burn MP faster for 15secs and got to roll without it for the next 105secs. Freecure happens by chance and you must be casting Cure1, sometimes you must use cure 2 instead, effectively making it unreliable. Same thing goes for Overcure and Medica1. RNG is unreliable, a lucky break, but ultimately should NOT be relied on or even considered for this in the first place. Benediction is gone for 5 minutes. Asylum is gone for over a minute. Tetragram is gone for a minute. Let's also consider the times they won't be used.
And when you don't have CDs then obviously your stuck spamming your default heals and/or attacks all with the exception of Dirunal Aspected Benefic when compared to WHM's Regen, are cheaper and just as effective, and I stress again, BY DEFAULT!

Geeze, did I mention default?

"By default" means nothing. There's no point in you even bringing it up. We are discussing ASTs issues with going oom. In any fight where going oom for any healer is even an option, CD's like DS and procs like Freecure are going to go a LONG way and will get used often. Period. Don't act like Freecure is some rare proc either. It's a 15% chance on you main spam heal, and so much as 1 means savings of 800~ MP. All those CDs mean additional health restored at no additional mana cost. It doesn't have to be up 100% of the time to save you mana.

This thread makes me want to level AST.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

BY DEFAULT

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How is it default to just ignore

• Freecures/Overcures (which are passive, you can only avoid them by not casting cure1/2s - neglecting 15% chance freecures is just ridiculous)
• Divine Seal (it does not have a tiny uptime btw. In fact 30% for 15 sec every minute is great uptime, can you think of a better buff?) and Presence of Mind
• Asylum

This is "not default" and heavily cherrypicking, just to fit your argument. It's like saying: Don't consider Synastry in this, it is not BY DEFAULT AST! *facepalm*