DRK openers and how to keep C&S on cooldown

Hello all. I got 60 recently and need some help/constructive criticism with DRK openers.

1. Currently Im doing:

DA> BP> unmend>plunge>scourge > C&S >HS >shadowskin or low blow depending on boss> SpS>DA >PS > shadowskin vs. low blow >HS > SaltE >SyS > DA > SoulE

I feel like salted earth is a bit late in the rotation, but doing it this way for now because I need a bit more mental clarity to shoot off Salted Earth without delaying the rotation. Scourge is early in there but I feel like it works better with the delay in the plunge animation, just my preference

2. In terms of C&S Ive read some players think it should be used exclusively with DA. If so how are people incorporating this into the rotations as MT? I am finding it hard to keep C&S on cooldown at all times when I need DA for SoulE. Do you do DA>C&S directly or try to weave it in? like

DA>HS>C&S>SyS>DA>SoulE.

If possible lets try to keep this thread for rotations / tips on how to play DRK as is now Thanks!

I feel like Drk doesn't really have a rotation. It depends on what is up, when, and whether it's worth using on that OGCD or not. It takes a lot of thought and practice (More complicated than other tanks), but you'll eventually get use to it.

For example, if you precharge a DA, don't Passenger on the next OGCD. A tip I can give though, is often I'll throw DA up, and use Delirium instead of Souleater. Follow that up with C&S immediately after. Kind of hard to give an exact rotation, because it can change every time with all of the OGCD's we have.

Just a few tips as well;

- You don't HAVE to use DA on a Souleater. If you have DA up, C&S up, and you're already halfway into your combo, use Delirium instead and then C&S during the GCD. It puts your potency usage as high as it will get.
- If you're wearing a lot of Fending, chances are you have low STR, thus the HP returned from Souleater is trivial. Having a 100% HP reutrn on one of our combo finishers is nice, but it isn't as good as it looks, nor what people make it out to be.
- Don't prioritize HP returns, it's just an added extra.
- Drk has a bad problem with GCD clipping with Blood Weapon. Until you get use to the flow, you may often run into times where your GCD will sit longer than it should. You don't want this to happen, ever. Never double up on OGCD's in 1 GCD unless it's something like Low Blow & Blood Weapon, which can be done within a single GCD.
- Don't be afraid to drop Grit to Blood Weapon. Just ensure you're far enough ahead in enmity before you do. FIghts like A1 for example, I'm only in Grit for 2 Power Slash GCD's. The rest of the fight I'm prioritizing damage, which on Faust I've held 1k without any slashing debuff.
- Both Plunge and Salted Earth are very risky OGCD's. Plunge has a long animation and recoup time, it can cause you to clip your GCD very easily. If you plan to weave it, which you should, it has to be fired off the INSTANT your GCD begins. Salted Earth, a lot of people are saying they'd rather have it planted around them instead of choosing where you want it. I don't agree with this at all, it just takes skill to get use to. It'll be harder on console definitely, but on PC, bind it to a key, hit the key and drop it immediately. You can do this within a GCD easily, hell I even click the skill and drop it within a GCD with Blood Weapon going.
- If C&S is counting down it's last couple of seconds, often I will Delirium instead of Souleater just to use that charged DA on C&S instead the instant it comes up. This can be risky however if you're not use to it, as DA doesn't have a very long duration.
- ALWAYS use C&S under DA unless you absolutely need the MP for whatever reason. For example in A2 I rarely DA a C&S simply because almost that entire fight my MP is running close to dry. It's not worth risking going out of MP, losing Darkside, and not being able to control AOE enmity just to do a quick 450 potency attack on 1 target.
- Delirium has a higher potency than Souleater without DA. Always use it as your DPS combo finisher unless you can DA a Souleater.

My opener is usually something like this..

DA -> Plunge -> Scourge -> Low Blow/Reprisal if it procs -> Heavy Slash -> C&S -> Spinning Slash -> Salted Earth -> Power Slash

If I know I have enmity for the entire fight after that, I drop grit, throw up Blood Weapon, and just go in hard. This usually leaves me in the high 800's in DPS by the time I drop Grit, so I start off strong, and go even stronger on fights like Faust where I've reached 1k without a slashing resist debuff, and with parsers not including Salted Earth at all.

If I think I have to, I'll do a second Power Slash combo with whatever OGCD's come up in between before I drop Grit.

OGCD prioritization is Reprisal = C&S > Low Blow > Salted Earth(If the target is going to sit in it long enough) > Plunge > Passenger(ONLY if you don't have Grit up. Never DA it. TO many peoples disbelief, it is worth using on single target if you can keep your MP floating with Blood Weapon)

It may not be perfect, but it works for me.

No reason not to use passenger on CD unless you've completely boned your mp and/or you are expecting adds within the next 30 seconds.

It is far, far more mp efficient than DA>SE.

You will have enough mp to use DA DD (if even needed) and DA CS and passenger on CD.

I typically do something like

DA > Unmend | Plunge > Scourge | C&S | Passenger > Combo1 | DA | Low Blow > Combo2 | Blood Price > Combo3 | Salted

If AoE, I typically go

DA | Blood Price > Unmend (hope for proc) | Passenger > Abyss | Salted > Abyss | C&S (for mana, if needed, if not, save for after blood price for more mana) > Abyss spam w/ reprisal and Plunge. Save DA for Passenger.

There's no real rotation for drk tbh. I typically will use DA directly prior to the buffed attack, rather than at the start, due to the fact that if I'm at full hp, I'm not going to buff my SE, I'll just throw in a delirium instead generally. Throughout the fight, I'll toss in unmend occasionally to substitute for an attack to get some time to regen tp. For an opener, I generally go Unmend, Plunge (I macro'd plunge into unmend to make this ever so slightly faster), Blood Price, Scourge, Dark Arts, Heavy Slash, Salted Earth, Spinning Slash, Low Blow, Power Slash, Carve and Spit. From there, depending on dps, I'll either drop grit then, or do one more buffed power slash, then drop grit.

AoE, DA, Blood Price, Unmend one target, plunge into another, drop salted earth, dark passenger, Shadowskin after DP wears off, Abyss spam, buffed with DA when possible, Carve and Spit when needed, Reprisal/Plunge weaved on CD, DA+DD when Shadowskin falls off.

I like using Passenger as well dont get me wrong I just wait a bit to use it during opener so I dont blow all my mp. I havent started playing around with dropping grit yet. Are you putting it back up for tank busters as if it were a GCD buff. Or just not dropping it in some fights?

These are my plans for when I hit 60:

OT Opener:
(Salted Earth + Plunge) -> Scourge -> (Low Blow + Dark Arts) -> Heavy Slash -> (Blood Weapon) -> Syphon Strike -> (Carve and Spit) -> Delirium Blade -> (Dark Arts+Dark Passenger) -> [Dark Arts Soul Eater Combos, refresh Scourge when needed]

MT Opener vs Single Target:
(Salted Earth where I'm pulling to) -> Unmend -> (Plunge + Low Blow) -> Heavy Slash -> (Blood Price + Defensive CD*) -> Spinning Slash -> (Dark Arts + Defensive CD*) -> Power Slash -> Scourge -> Heavy Slash -> (Dark Arts + Carve and Spit**) -> Syphon Strike -> Delirium -> [Dark Arts + Soul Eater Combo or Delirium Combo, depending on mana/refreshing debuff]

NOTES: I ignore Dark Passenger unless I have a surplus of mana OR need it to grab some adds later on/AOE at all. Early Low Blow gives you a bit more damage to help build initial aggro against the insane openers that can happen, and gives more chances for it to reset.

MT Opener vs Dungeon Packs (regular dungeon pulls):
(Salted Earth where I'm pulling to) -> Unmend -> (Plunge + Low Blow) -> Unleash/Abyssal -> (Blood Price + Defensive CD*) -> Unleash/Abyssal (Dark Arts + Dark Passenger) -> Heavy Slash -> (Defensive CD*) -> Syphon Strike -> (Dark Arts + Carve and Spit) -> Delirium Blade -> Scourge [on each mob] -> Unleash/Abyssal -> [Dark Arts + Soul Eater Combo/Delirium Combo/Unleash or Abyssal, depending on mana/refreshing debuff/enmity]

* - Situation dependent
** - Depends how much MP Blood Price gave me back

If you put passenger before low blow, you'll get DA out sooner as well as not delay passenger for like 10 seconds.

DA + passenger is also definitely not worth it unless you are hitting more than 1 target (in which case, depending on number of targets, may or may not be better than abyss drain instead).

DA + PS is kinda meh. As I understand it, it just changes the PS multiplier from 5.5 to 6.5, not a huge boost for that much mp spent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

No reason not to use passenger on CD unless you've completely boned your mp and/or you are expecting adds within the next 30 seconds.

It is far, far more mp efficient than DA>SE.

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It's the most mp efficient thing we have that's off the GCD. Better than DA + C&S.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

DA + PS is kinda meh. As I understand it, it just changes the PS multiplier from 5.5 to 6.5, not a huge boost for that much mp spent.

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The idea is that, for most content, DAing Power Slash is basically enough to never use your aggro combo again throughout a fight (maybe twice depending on how awesome your DPS are). It's to encourage you to use your Syphon Strike combos more, which regain you MP, which encourages you to freely use DA more. It's a pretty well-designed setup.

You are better off in that scenario doing 2 PS combos then using DA for souleater.

Effectively each mana gen is roughly 1/3rd of a DA.

So you lose 1/3rd of a DA's added damage by doing another PS (so 40 potency).

And then you lose a delirium's combo vs ps combo worth of damage (10 potency).

...so you lose 50 potency total...while getting more threat, while gaining vs potency lost from using DA PS vs DA SE, which is 120 potency.

Much better to never, never use DA PS. Only situtation I see is if other tank dies, provoke off CD, and you need to immediately rip a target.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

DA + PS is kinda meh. As I understand it, it just changes the PS multiplier from 5.5 to 6.5, not a huge boost for that much mp spent.



It's the most mp efficient thing we have that's off the GCD. Better than DA + C&S.

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DA + CS is more efficient.
Dark Passenger is second.

Dark Passenger's mana is 884 for 150 potency.
884/150 = 5.893 mana per potency.

Dark Arts costs 1768 for C&S's 350 potency gain.
1768/350 = 5.051 mana per potency.

I know your reasoning is probably that if you don't use C&S with DA then you'll gain mana.
Hence using DA + C&S isn't as mana efficient if you take into account the mana you lost because you used Dark Arts.
That's true.

Still, in a rotation where you always use DA + C&S then you always spent less mana per potency than you would've for Dark Passenger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Effectively each mana gen is roughly 1/3rd of a DA.

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Are you talking about Syphon Strike?
It's exactly half of DA.
I get 884 mana back from Syphon Strike, 2 of them is exactly the cost of DA - 1768 mp.

While I agree -
if you're doing Savage and you're DPS aren't pulling from you without a double PS start, then you're probably not going to meet the dps checks (or their openers just aren't good).
Sometimes I can get away with just 1 PS, but it's risky with my DRG's burst. I do 2 (usually only one with DA though) and never touch it again most of the time.

I said 1/3rd in practice because of all the other stuff you're doing (the time it takes for 3 combos, for example, is almost exactly the time required for darkside to soak ~1 syphon's worth of mp).

OT Opener:


DA > wait > plunge > scourge > pot > hard slash > C&S > Syhpon strike > DA + Salted Earth > Souleater > Blood weapon
Hard slash > low blow > Syphon strike > Dark Passenger > Delerium
Hard Slash > Dark arts > Syphon strike > Souleater

Cont. till dots and cd are up. should keep you at 900+ dps without a war or ninja or food/party buff and above 1k+ with war or ninja until your tp runs out. after the 2nd bloodweapon wears off you might be a little low on mp, so just doing a regular delirum combo between each DA souleater combo for a bit.

Depends on your connections but you should be able to fit 2 ogcd between all your gcd, since dark arts is a instant cast, you can clip that with another ogcd easier than doing two ogcd that are melee attacks


MT: rotation depends on content, if its like normal alexander or primals, just use OT rotation. If its savage i go

Since i wear a few fending acc for savage:
Grit + Darkside > DA + Unmend > Plunge > Hard > low blow > SPinning > Salted > power > turn off grit > Hard > Da > Syphon > pot > C&S > Delirum >
Hard > Dark passenger > syphon > delerium
Hard > DA > syphon > souleater with oGCD between. blood weapon yea. Switch back into grit when needed and take it off when you can for bloodweapon + dmg. also put sole survior on any add thats gonna die.

Example: Shouldnt need grit besides the first hate combo for a1s till the .5 pops, then i usually turn grit back one after he shoots out the lasers since healing needs to heal others at this point, i turn grit off again, during the giant lasers after the tank busters, before the jump and dps in that + bloodweapon. and turn darkside off during jump. should have about full mp again when they land.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

While I agree -
if you're doing Savage and you're DPS aren't pulling from you without a double PS start, then you're probably not going to meet the dps checks (or their openers just aren't good).
Sometimes I can get away with just 1 PS, but it's risky with my DRG's burst. I do 2 (usually only one with DA though) and never touch it again most of the time.

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I have to agree with this many times over. Especially in SA3, 2 combos are enough for the dps but as our WHM is solohealing the first phase he's the guy who generates the most enmity. I have to weave in more enmity combos just to make sure he doesn't snap it off me if he has to do some burst heal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

DA + CS is more efficient.
Dark Passenger is second.

Dark Passenger's mana is 884 for 150 potency.
884/150 = 5.893 mana per potency.

Dark Arts costs 1768 for C&S's 350 potency gain.
1768/350 = 5.051 mana per potency.

I know your reasoning is probably that if you don't use C&S with DA then you'll gain mana.
Hence using DA + C&S isn't as mana efficient if you take into account the mana you lost because you used Dark Arts.
That's true.

Still, in a rotation where you always use DA + C&S then you always spent less mana per potency than you would've for Dark Passenger.

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Efficiency only comes into play when you're starting to get low on mp for whatever reason. If you ever have to decide on Dark Passenger vs. DA + C&S because you don't have enough MP, you should probably choose Dark Passenger & C&S (without DA) because it's more mp efficient.

But under normal circumstances where you've got enough MP to do both, this doesn't matter. All that matters is both of them are a better use of MP than DA + SE, so those should take priority. Both should be used on cooldown. Priority goes to DA + C&S because it's higher DPS.

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Originally Posted by Molic

Good stuff

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^ this.
/10char