Small (tiny?) changes to PLD/DRK

There's a lot of complaining going around right now about both Paladins and Dark Knights. I, for one, think they're both very close to perfect. These are the changes I propose:

Paladin

Shield Swipe* - I'd really like to see this skill be off the global cooldown without changing anything else about it. This would add a bit of needed DPS and increase single target enmity.

Sword Oath - Add a slight damage buff to actions; something reasonable like 5-10%

Dark Knight

Cross Class - My list for Dark Knight is very short. Change the cross-class skills from Marauder to Lancer. Blood for Blood makes up for the lack of a hard damage increase skill (FoF/Berserk), Invigorate fixes the TP issues the class suffers from, and Keen Flurry has perfect synergy with the parry concept. I know that with those changes we would lose Bloodbath (oh noes....), Foresight (oh noes again!), and Mercy Stroke. However, what the class gains in ability would also help solidify it's identity.

Well, there they are. I'll end this by saying that I've been tanking in this game since 1.0 and have a lot of experience with both Warrior and Paladin. I think it's obvious by these forums that Warrior is in a pretty good place right now, hence to omission. I know Dark Knight is still very new, but I've played pretty much nothing else since 3.0 launch. I'm hardly an expert or respected individual in the field of tank and spank in this community, but I appreciate any comments and feedback. Thanks folks, happy hunting.

*Shield Bash was the wrong skill name. I meant Shield Swipe!

First of all, Sword Oath is the most potent DPS stance adding roughly 11~15% DPS compared to base non-DPS-stance. While it would be nice if it boosted potency of attacks which would help with aggro a bit. I do not see it happening though.

Shield Bash moving to off GCD means it loses 1 second in duration and gains a 20~ second CD so it is in line with the other stuns. It would gain a form of advantage but it loses the stun lock advantage. I think it is nice in its niche form currently.

As for DRK, Blood for Blood would make healers' lives a nightmare. The amount of bad DRK tanks out there is bad enough, adding more reason to make the bad tanks even worse is not the smart idea.

Keen Flurry would be a nice addition but it does not justify changing MRD to LNC cross class. Same with Invigorate. IMO DRK needs their own versions of those skills. Dark Dance should add more than the measly 30% parry rate. And if DRK MUST get a TP replenishment, they should have their own version.

It's pretty obvious from the threads in this forum that Paladin is pretty far behind the other tanks in the DPS department, so adding a little bit to Sword Oath wouldn't break them in my opinion. I corrected the original post, Shield Bash is perfectly fine, what I meant to change was Shield Swipe.

As far as Blood for Blood goes, you're taking less additional damage using BfB than you would by switching off Grit to DPS. I'm all for DRK getting their own version of needed skills but it seems from a development point of view using the ones already in the game would be faster, cheaper, and easier. Paladin cross classes with MRD and WHM, Marauder with GLA and MNK, while Dark Knight is stuck with both tanks. Switching them to GLA and LNC seems like a no-brainer to me.

Some one dummy parse a paladin for me! I'll believe they need a dps buff when I see them pulling super low numbers! THE PROOF IS IN THE PARSE!

I'm currently leveling Paladin so I'll try to post a comparison parse in the same gear/iLvL soon. Paladin should be lower DPS than the others, that's not the main focus of my suggestions.

I was doing multiple dummy parses for both DRK and PLD in STR accessories, and about 80% of the time I was able to parse the same or more dps with PLD while also lasting ~25-30 seconds longer. Both have the same equipment and I am more experienced with DRK than I am with PLD right now.

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Originally Posted by Nayrr

I was doing multiple dummy parses for both DRK and PLD in STR accessories, and about 80% of the time I was able to parse the same or more dps with PLD while also lasting ~25-30 seconds longer. Both have the same equipment and I am more experienced with DRK than I am with PLD right now.

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That seems a bit surprising considering the forum uproar. I'd be interested to know what rotations you're using.

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Originally Posted by Naelle

That seems a bit surprising considering the forum uproar. I'd be interested to know what rotations you're using.

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For PLD it's pretty simple: Keeping FoF on CD, start GB combo and do it every time after 2 RA combos. SW and CoS whenever up.

FOR DRK... start Scourge and Salted Earth, spam DA SE combo while also keeping Plunge, DP, Low Blow, and C&S on CD while also always using C&S with DA, and always have BW on whenever it's up. Usually fit 2 oGCD skills in between. If low on mp, use Delirium combo until I can get sufficient MP back. Also Scourge whenever it wears off, and Salted Earth whenever available.

EDIT: The reason why I was doing multiple dummy parse runs was because of the uproar on the forums. Couldn't really believe it because I had thought DRK was supposed to be quite a bit ahead, and in pretty much all the cases, they were nearly even, with PLD being able to last longer. Maybe the parser itself is not counting something right on DRK.

I out dps the paladin main in my raid linkshell easily idk how your putting out more dps on your paladin then your dark knight. Mind you he has his 200 weapon while I only have my hive.

As for this thread I'd prefer just having a tp recovery skill of our own as opposed to taking from lancer. We keep our dps buff 100% of the time even while main tanking if you think about it we are only ever handicapped by a 5% damage reduction while in tank stance. And keep the bonus of darkside at all times while out of tank stance.

Paladin has lower DPS but higher mitigation. IMO it could benefit mostly from further buffs to its mitigation as opposed to increased DPS. We already have WAR for DPS tank but in order to retain balance Paladin really needs to be better at the one reason you would pick it over WAR - needed extra damage mitigation...

Buffing some gladiator skills would be good I feel like.

Rampart still 20% for 20 seconds but 45 second cool down
Sentinel 35% for 15 seconds 90 second cool down
Provoke 25 second cool down (buffs WAR and DRK too but why not?)

Then for Paladin skills...

Cover - Take magic damage too, 15% damage reduction (gives a reason to use it)
Hallowed Ground - 300 second cool down
Shelltron - Block the next *attack* that deals over 15% max HP for 10 seconds 40 seconds cool down
New Skill - Divine Intervention level 59 - Fully heal all allies and removes status effects (uses all MP and TP) 420 second cool down

The problem with being the "mitigation" tank is that as soon as you out-gear a fight you're completely useless. People will always want to do more damage and clear things faster, but not every job should play the same. It's a fine line to walk to make every job relevant without being too washed out. Paladins are great for defense but they do need enough offense to not be ignored later. I'd prefer their niche be the "main" tank rather than the "mitigation" tank. The proposed shield swipe change would only increase main tank damage, leaving Warriors and Dark Knights to be the better dps/ot jobs.

I ran several more tests to make sure I wasn't going crazy and same deal. However, I was using Sword Oath and Darkside only, respectively. I'll test again with Shield Oath and Grit up. Fairly certain DRK will win out easily in that case, since Sword Oath does put out a pretty nice chunk of damage while DRK can keep Darkside up at all times.

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Originally Posted by Xaenith

New Skill - Divine Intervention level 59 - Fully heal all allies and removes status effects (uses all MP and TP) 420 second cool down

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Wait what...You want to give PLD the level 2 healer's limit break? xD If we're going that far with OP moves, why not also throw in the upgraded shield bash technique the first boss in the vault uses.

Trait: Holy Shield bash - every time you use shield bash you preform the level 1 DPS limit break.

I'm pretty happy with where PLD & DRK are.

Both tanks do roughly the same damage against dummies out of tank stance. As DRK I do about 5% more damage out of Grit than a PLD in Sword Oath with both in the exact same tank sets with the exact same attribute placement. However, pulling that DPS is 100x easier as PLD. PLD only rely on TP, and a good portion of their damage comes from the boost to auto-attacks. As DRK I have to manage more abilities, buffs, and MP.

But there's more to it than what you can do on a dummy, or as OT which you will almost never be. While MT out of tank stance DRK will pull further ahead. The main two reasons being that A) their resources(MP) regenerate much faster while taking damage, and B) their hate generation with proper use of Dark Arts+Power Slash is much higher than anything a PLD can do. This allows them to focus solely on damage after the initial pull, and to do more of it than they could on a dummy. This goes for tank stances too. A DRK not being attacked will eventually fall behind a PLD in damage due to lack of resources. Also worth the mention that DRK takes less of a hit dropping Grit than a PLD swapping to Sword Oath, though there is still some delay because it is tied to GCD. In contrast, DRK are completely lacking in support abilities & Hallowed Ground.(I almost died in phase change to Living Dead earlier)

I've taken both tanks into Alexander Savage & prefer DRK so far, because it's not as boring and brings better DPS. I'm still hesitant to buy the i200 Great Sword next week because I'm worried I may want Hallowed or other PLD support skills in later turns. That is balance. It won't matter who does more once we're wearing full i210 because I'll just tank without stance & destroy everything on both.

The only change I'd make to DRK would be to add a chance(10%, maybe 20%) to proc reprisal on a critical hit. Not only would it increase the chance of it being up when you want it, this change would also allow the OT to occasionally toss it on whatever enemy the party is fighting. It's not something that'd kill DRK to not have, but it'd be a nice little bonus to the current toolset.

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Originally Posted by Aurum

The only change I'd make to DRK would be to add a chance(10%, maybe 20%) to proc reprisal on a critical hit. Not only would it increase the chance of it being up when you want it, this change would also allow the OT to occasionally toss it on whatever enemy the party is fighting. It's not something that'd kill DRK to not have, but it'd be a nice little bonus to the current toolset.

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So they would have a Int down debuffs and common access to a storms path when needed? That doesn't seem a bit op to you? The fact it's limited to when your tanking physical damage is the limiter and basically allows darks to deal with physical fights, just not as well as paladins or wars, while still able to keep your Int down at all times.

Edit: Okay, okay, you're right lol

[QUOTE=Naelle;3195001]It's pretty obvious from the threads in this forum that Paladin is pretty far behind the other tanks in the DPS department....QUOTE]

Its intentionally designed that way, I doubt it will change.

I've migrated out of PLD because I feel its lackluster. Not because of it's design ( i generally love a tank/support role) but because of the way that heavensward is delivering it's content. DPS races are back in place and in alot of circles tanks are expected to pull their weight.

This happened in XI too.. PLD was a premier endgame tank. Except you only needed one most of the time cause everything was a DPS race. In SE's MMO's they seem to migrate from survival battles to battles that favor mechanics of damage. This makes sense cause a party is 50% DPS classes and most of the games main class players play DPS. I just have a hard time imagining SE changing their ways in such a fashion that tanks take enough damage that the off tank needs to step in the ensure that survivability. However, if this was the case PLD would fit that bill PERFECTLY.

Just my opinion.