Will we ever... (t9 related)

...learn who "she" is?

Nael van Darnus wasn't a woman in 1.0. At least not if you look at the movement and animations (can't count the voice cause of the helmet).
There was speculation, she is the warrior maiden he defeated. Bradamante. But I recall a DEV post saying it is not her.
She isn't a humanized form of Bahamut either, as we now know for sure he's a male dragon.
Or was it just meant "to shock" the legacy players, as Mister-Badass-Megalomaniac was a woman from the very beginning?

Also I still wonder what the original plan for Nael and Dalamud was, as entrapped Bahamut prime was just the way out of 1.0...

The dialog at the time suggested she was probably someone important from Neal's memories, possibly a sister or mother. Perhaps we may one day meet the original woman.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

...learn who "she" is?

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All of the information I've amassed so far suggests that we have all the information we'll get for the foreseeable future, and all that we really need. I will, however, do a rundown in case I need to quote or cite this post in the future. Please note that Square Enix could change this at any time, even if suggestions so far imply that they will not address it further.

The Tanaka-Era Plan did not include any of this. The Allag were, of course, a big part of the backstory, but Dalamud was an all-original branch built out of necessity. Originally, Hydaelyn just had two moons because two moons is a fast way to say, "Welcome to Manufactured Fantasy World!"

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Originally Posted by Koji Fox

Yoshida came in and said, “We need to find a way to destroy the world because we need new maps.” He was playing around in the game, looked up, saw that there were two moons that we never really touched upon, and went, “That’s good! We can use that! If we bring that down there’s still another moon."

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In Version 1.0, Nael van Darnus was built using a male Elezen skeleton, leading us to believe that he possessed such a form beneath the armor. We now know that this is just how Garleans are rendered - Elezen skeletons with Hyuran ears and third eyes. In ARR, this is how Gaius is rendered, as well. In all likelihood (as of current knowns), Nael van Darnus was a typical blonde, Hyuran-earred, third-eyed, Elezen-like-framed Garlean person. For 1.0, maybe they tossed an actual Elezen base on him to save time (he used Elezen emotes, too). As for the voice, I've tried very hard to track down a video in which battle grunts could be heard, but so far I haven't found one. If you possess one or can find someone who does, please bring it forward.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

There was speculation <...> she is Bradamante. But I recall a DEV post saying it is not her.

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Indeed, that was my and Fusionx's first assumption since it made for a beautiful story - Darnus dies and his last thought is of Branamante, hinting at a tragic past and mixed feelings about her death. His essence gets diluted upon capture and Bahamut rebuilds him with that image taking over the form. Great, no? Also wrong. Very wrong. Entirely, completely, undoubtedly wrong. Whatever's under the helmet, that's not it.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The dialog at the time suggested she was probably someone important from Neal's memories, possibly a sister or mother. Perhaps we may one day meet the original woman.

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And this is where I landed after Bradamante was shot down - still a possible interpretation.

You know another theory I really liked? That since Nael van Darnus was a very loose reference to Sephiroth, T9 Darnus' form was a very subtle reference to Jenova, using Bahamut as a vehicle for that reference. If that's how you choose to see it, that's not bad at all, imho. However, that's (almost) just as guaranteed as Bradamante to be a completely unintended and inaccurate assumption.

There's also a theory that Nael was always a woman and pulled a Pope Joan on everyone. There's nothing official on this theory either way, but even if she was a Brienne of Tarth-level masculine hulk of a woman, how did she keep it a secret as a military general? Do they not have mandatory health exams? Soldiers have never seen her in any stage of un-armored-dress on the battlefield (and Darnus spent quite some time on the battlefields of the East)? It's not on their official military file or profile or identification? If a female can pass as a male as a vetted military general born and raised of a national war hero from childhood even amongst other military generals, some bureaucratic reform is probably necessary.

The final one I've seen is that (since the Japanese version used no specifically-engendered pronouns) localizers made incorrect assumptions and had to cover their ass once their mistake had been revealed by the glorious, unsullied Japanese Master Client.

Painful though it may be to admit, current information points to that last theory being closest to the mark, although perhaps still more wrong than not on the whole. The implication that localizers can't be bothered to confirm a concrete known on the JP end with Scenario and/or World Lore before shipping it off into a released version is silly. Little mistakes and bugs slip though all the time, even on gender (especially on goblin gender), but nobody noticed and thought it worth pointing out until it was too late? Perhaps, I guess, but it's not my first assumption - and even Japanese apparently used masculine-assumed speech on occasion (I can't read that, but I've been led to believe that's what that implies, lol.)

The truth, as far as I can tell, was that it wasn't ever going to come up in a detailed way as of 2012, filed away in the DON'T THINK TOO HARD ABOUT IT box where we keep questions like, "Why is the Water Crystal of Light obtained without any connection to water?" and "Why does all of the Dusk Vigil gear have House Fortemps crest even though Yuhelmeric commanded House Durendaire's knights?" and "How is Roegafell babby formed?"

Because there doesn't seem to have been any official back-end plan for Darnus beneath the mask (and I've still yet to find any vocal tracks), surely multiple impressions formed in the minds of multiple people. Maybe some saw a man doing slightly effeminate emotes, maybe some saw a tall, powerful woman. As Nael was given a projected personality in several languages (and we've seen many characters' personalities differ slightly by client), perhaps those unique versions were reinforced. Kinda makes you wonder: Did Square Enix know what Gaius van Baelsar looked like under the mask in 2010? Livia and Rhitatyn in 2013? Now?

The helmet never came off, and Nael died. The end - until it wasn't. When T9 was designed, obviously one visual impression of what was under the mask became digitally manifest. Based on the fact that there is absolutely zero consensus by language, I'm guessing that each was free to account for this how they saw fit. Some jump right on the bandwagon and have Darnus "herself" state, "I was once a weak little girl." English, however, seems to tap into the questions I mentioned earlier, ("What, Gaius didn't know better? It's not on Nael's Imperial military personnel record? Nael never relieved themselves on the battlefield or saw a doctor?") and blatantly stated, "Nael was a man, Bahamut messed up."

For what it's worth, a chunk of us made it to Fan Festival and Rocl flat out asked people when he got the chance. If I remember correctly, Koji Fox suggested that Yoshida field the question and Yoshida stated, "Man! MAN! Always man!"

If you want an in-world answer retrospective from 2015, that's probably as good as you're going to get.

If you want The Truth, it's probably a little more complicated than that.

If you want my advice:

Don't think too hard about it.

I heard from someone that the original plan was they were going to have you go up to Dalamud and do something up there (RAID???). But with the way things happened with the game it changed. Not sure if this is correct or not...just what I heard.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

EDIT INCOMING (It'll be a few minutes; not a short post - must needs be thorough on this one)

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Pre-emptive French is the language of liars

Holy sh[kupo!]t, it took me an hour and a half to edit that post fully? Sorry about that.

Anyway, French is the language of liars, that should cover it.

I'm sure there are people that won't be satisfied by such a conclusion, but unless SE finds a reason to dig this all back up again (or decides to expend further resources on settling a pedantic specific for which they've already left room for personal speculation), they probably must needs get over it.

I have a lot of regrets about not doing things right in Vegas, but getting to ask Yoshida that question was definitely a good move. However I'd be more keen to ask Oda-san. So Oda-san please come to next NA Fanfest.

thanks for the write up. funny thing i always remember those final cutscenes in 1.23b having voice acting for nael and so on. but apparently i was wrong. guess it was more badass in my head while reading the cs than it really was

I guess in future we have to go and face the empire at their own home base. maybe then we will learn more about Nael, Gaius and whoever else we will kill to achieve our goal protecting eorzea...

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

I guess in future we have to go and face the empire at their own home base. maybe then we will learn more about Nael, Gaius and whoever else we will kill to achieve our goal protecting eorzea...

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<4.0 Ala Mhigan dungeon; Garlean records abandoned>

"Hold up, I wanna read this sparkly thing."

[As requested, Lord Baelsar - all information pertaining to Nael van Darnus of the VIIth Legion, scheduled for arrival within a fortnight to assume command of Ala Mhigan conscripts. His Radiance bids the XIVth act in a supporting role until the Meteor project concludes.]

"Oh, man, answers! Stop, stop! Here's another one!"

[Nael of House Darnus; assumed lordship upon father's death under suspicious circumstances. Past deployments mostly Othardian in nature. Confirmed killer of Bradamante. Age and gender appear to be smudged.]

"FFFFUUUUUUU."

I'm incline to think it is his mother.

The possibility of Nael desu Darnus being the result of Naels dying thoughts was a possibility mentioned directly by Alisaie (or was it Urianger later?), and after regaining his senses, Nael makes a passing mention that he was once a weak child. He suggests that he had a fairly traumatic childhood, considering that he only even brought the topic up with regards to the "trauma" Alisaie would go through continuing her quest. Something terrible happening to a beloved elder? I'm incline to think Nael had a good relationship with his mother, as a weak child one would certain seek their mother for comfort, and at deaths door I'd imagine he'd think back to her (he was once again "weak") and confuse Bahamut. Can't imagine babby Nael would confide with his father, considering what is suggested he did to his father, if anything I'd imagine his father did something to his mother, hence the bloodshed and heartlessness...

I really kind of hope they expand on the White Ravens history at a later date, there is a fair bit more they could do with the character, even if he is dead. Heck, Gaius could also do with some fleshing out, considering right now I get the distinct impression that he was basically crucified in order to rebuild the realm... I just found him to be so very badly written in 2.0... At the very least I'd like to know what drove him to such an obsession with conquest... Nael we know got corrupted by Bahamut, but Gaius? He just ran off on a failed conquest and left the Emperor to die, although I'm starting to doubt that Gaius wielding Heirsbane was in anyway relevant, considering the weapon seems to be standard issue now (here's a fun game, how many copies of Heirsbane did you spot in Azys Lla?).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

The possibility of Nael desu Darnus being the result of Naels dying thoughts was a possibility mentioned directly by Alisaie (or was it Urianger later?)

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Originally Posted by Alisaie

You had surrendered your physical form, and collapsed into aether... But Bahamut denied you death, and imprisoned what little was left of you in an aetherial shell resembling...what, I wonder? Images from your memory, perhaps?

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That's what originally led me to Bradamante, falling back on a family member once that was denied. It is heavily implied that Nael was responsible for the elder Darnus' death, so the mother theory could have some story-connection to it. Because of the language differences, I'm not of the opinion that much can be puzzled out with known information. What do the "I was once a weak little girl." languages say if it is his mother? Personally, I've given up for now and figure if they want us to know more, they'll let us know, lol.

There's info saying that his gun lance is named after a war maiden he killed maybe its this person. You don't name your weapon after some one you killed on a whim.

My crack theory that will (probably) never be able to be verified. Nael van Darnus was of House Darnus, who were keepers of the knowledge of Dalamud passed down by the Allagans themselves. We've met exactly one other person who can make a similar claim (yes, him), though due to a glitch in the system he never knew about it until it was far to late for us to help him sort it out. When that knowledge properly awoke inside him, though, he began to act according to a will that was, by his own admission, not his own, towards a purpose he didn't care to explain, and he left us with only a name:

Salina.

We know she used the royal blood to pass her memories on to the line that resulted in G'raha Tia, but we have no idea what happened to Salina herself, just that she was the last surviving member of Allag's royal line. So where did she go, and was G'raha's ancestor the only one she assigned a "purpose"? But if you think back on House Darnus, factor in the possibility of a second inherited will, add in Nael's own confusion as to the female form he took...

Bahamut recreated the form of the dominant will residing in Nael's body, and it wasn't Nael. Maybe.

Alright. I've been wondering for a while, but Fenral, I have to ask, what is the deal with CT and G'raha Tia and you? I didn't feel the story was incomplete, beyond the obvious 'potential future plot hooks' that all MMO's have... so what about it am I missing?

I don't think it's Salina. That's a story left to CT. I wonder if it's not from Nael's memories, but from Bahamut's, and if the form is the person who slew Bahamut all those eras passed.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Alright. I've been wondering for a while, but Fenral, I have to ask, what is the deal with CT and G'raha Tia and you? I didn't feel the story was incomplete, beyond the obvious 'potential future plot hooks' that all MMO's have... so what about it am I missing?

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Entirely too much prior literary baggage concerning tropes relating to free will, self-determination, inherited memories, and the role the past should have in shaping the future. Much of it coming from Final Fantasy games, some that even seemed to be referenced in the story itself. And it *kupo*d all over all of it at the last minute as a means to permanently "resolve" a character I was hoping to see a lot more of. ("Get it? He's Desch!" Uh, no. Not even close.) If you had gone into it thinking in the way I did, it would feel wrong to you, too.

What I posted above, though, is legitimate speculation based on what we know about the Allagans so far. Please forgive me for wanting to believe that some part of it somewhere was actually meant to have significance beyond the end of the storyline.

EDIT:
Long story short, I feel that trying to discuss Allag without bringing up G'raha at all would be like if Heavensward took us to meet Hraesvelgr without Ysayle, or had us confront Nidhogg without Estinien in the party. Yes, it can all spin on without him (or Doga, Unei, or Noah), and quite possibly will, but so long as he remains our only link to the people of Allag in the entire (original) cast, major or minor, it feels weird to treat him as a fully resolved character who never needs to show up again.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

don't think too hard about it.

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Its bahamut's waifu.

No, not tiamat! his waifu....

Because even a dragon gets lonely.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Darnus grunt request

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmvPFXtxDwA Not sure if this will count but watch it from about 5:00.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmvPFXtxDwA Not sure if this will count but watch it from about 5:00.

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Definitely close enough for me! I'm 99% sure that if Nael has the male emote voice pack, Nael has the male battle grunt pack, lol.

Imho, that's probably enough to assume that (as of 2012), there was not enough need for a team consensus on the "beneath the mask" identity to thus necessitate the forethought, "Hey, did we use a voice pack? Was it a male voice pack? 'Cause... spoiler alert...." (especially since it wasn't a localization team, but the Japanese developers, that chose it). I mean, the Pope Joan theorists have plenty of room to say that of course she'd mask her voice, but I'm of the opinion that it's at least one nail in the coffin of thinking it's as simple as "Trololol, English had to engage in a cover-up because they sullied the original, intended script in which everyone knew this was planned all along."

They really should go into the backstory of the three Legatii (plus Varis) sometime.

In the English localization of the cutscene immediately following T9 Nael specifically says that the body he is in is not his own. Does he say this same thing in the Japanese version? Surely that would eliminate any speculation that the gender swap was actually fixing up a 1.0 localization error, since it would be unnecessary in the Japanese version?

Also if there was an error with Nael's gender in the 1.0 localization why did they even have Nael lose his helmet? Given how we're still unsure of the identity of Nael's new form there was really no reason for them to even unmask him unless they deliberately wanted us to speculate on the body swap.

Nael's new female form was revealed too deliberately to just be a cover for a mistake. They could easily have just kept it hidden but they chose not to which tells me there is significance to it. If anything the fact such a big deal was made of it with no concrete answers suggests to me that we're not actually finished with Nael's story.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

In the English localization of the cutscene immediately following T9 Nael specifically says that the body he is in is not his own. Does he say this same thing in the Japanese version? Surely that would eliminate any speculation that the gender swap was actually fixing up a 1.0 localization error, since it would be unnecessary in the Japanese version?

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The JP version doesn't have Nael say anything about his/her body.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Also if there was an error with Nael's gender in the 1.0 localization why did they even have Nael lose his helmet? Given how we're still unsure of the identity of Nael's new form there was really no reason for them to even unmask him unless they deliberately wanted us to speculate on the body swap.

Nael's new female form was revealed too deliberately to just be a cover for a mistake. They could easily have just kept it hidden but they chose not to which tells me there is significance to it. If anything the fact such a big deal was made of it with no concrete answers suggests to me that we're not actually finished with Nael's story.

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If my (unverified) sources are right, Nael was always a woman in the JP version, but due to using masculine Japanese pronouns was translated as a man. Since there was very little voicework in 1.x, there was no context for "his" voice, so there was no conflict in translating her as being male. Then the Coil comes around, and Nael is revealed to be a woman... so they said Bahamut got EN!Nael wrong and "accidentally" gave him a sex change when reconstructing his body.

Only possible due to lack of voices and quirks with Japanese pronouns. Done deliberately to shock the players a la Samus Aran back in the original Metroid.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If my (unverified) sources are right, Nael was always a woman in the JP version, but due to using masculine Japanese pronouns was translated as a man. Since there was very little voicework in 1.x, there was no context for "his" voice, so there was no conflict in translating her as being male. Then the Coil comes around, and Nael is revealed to be a woman... so they said Bahamut got EN!Nael wrong and "accidentally" gave him a sex change when reconstructing his body.

Only possible due to lack of voices and quirks with Japanese pronouns. Done deliberately to shock the players a la Samus Aran back in the original Metroid.

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Hmm, if this is indeed the case then I would honestly have thought less of it if Nael hadn't commented on the new body him/herself. They could easily have just revealed Nael to be female and left us to speculate that she used some kind of magitek voice altering device in the helmet. Having the whole unexplained identity of the 'new' female form only makes this feel messy and unfinished if it's actually just a cover for Nael being female all along.

Moose was asking about the combat voice pack that Nael used earlier and it was male in the localized client. As far as I'm aware those voice packs are actually universal and not unique to specific localizations so Nael likely had a male voice pack in the JP client too. At that point it seems to me that this big reveal would make as little sense to the JP players as it does to us.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Moose was asking about the combat voice pack that Nael used earlier and it was male in the localized client. As far as I'm aware those voice packs are actually universal and not unique to specific localizations so Nael likely had a male voice pack in the JP client too. At that point it seems to me that this big reveal would make as little sense to the JP players as it does to us.

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Correct, the Elezen male voice pack should be the same in every language. Someone who met the Darnus GM in Japan in 1.0 might have the same "Was Darnus a man, originally? Is there a voice modulator in the helmet? Is she taking a gruff tone?" conversation that others are having now.

If people are intent on debating this, I'm glad that piece of evidence was actually in the game. You never can fully trust unseen back-end assets, even when you're looking them on a DB site. An extreme example: Technically, no one is in Darnus' suit; it's hollow. That's probably not evidence that Nael van Darnus was a very complicated Dullahan, though. Likewise, people who need everything tidied up perfectly might focus on there being no way to make an ironclad claim that in-game JP Darnus as of 2012 wasn't a woman lore-wise just because development-wise they used an Elezen male voice alongside Elezen male emotes on an Elezen male skeleton filed as an NPC in the Elezen male list right next to Urianger. Attempts to get past that just invite Pope Joan back into the debate and we go in a familiar circle, again.

This is a lot of focus on the out-of-game end, too, with people trying to figure out which devs had which impressions in which year and whether the people who designed the NPC as a male knew about or if it even mattered at the time. Granted someone might actually guess it right, but at this point I feel like it's doing more harm than good - even my input (perhaps especially my input). Each time this comes around, I'm more concerned that my attempts to help define the boundaries of the known are just dragging things to the surface better left buried or bringing too many pieces to the puzzle. Unless they bring this back up someday, I'm inclined to trust the English exposition by Darnus, Urianger, and Alisaie (and Yoshida-san's apparent acknowledgement of it at Fan Fest) as in-world canon, regardless of how we got there out-of-world, and otherwise not think too hard about it.

In the spirit of getting nowhere, though, maybe Darnus was a man who always privately identified as a woman. It explains everything! :p

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The JP version doesn't have Nael say anything about his/her body.

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I will give virtual donuts (or cookies, hell, the virtual pastry of your choice in copious amounts) to someone willing to repost more than just the one line in Japanese. I will probably get around to it myself tomorrow and just boot in with a different client language, but either way, I'd be willing to provide a less localized translation just to clear things up for the sake of debate. I have no bets placed either way, but something about the line Moose posted bugged me, because the last part (そうであったように), depending on context could translate as "so I wished I was..." but I'm unsure about exactly what was going on in the Japanese script when s/he said that.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

an Elezen male skeleton filed as an NPC in the Elezen male list right next to Urianger.
(...)
Each time this comes around, I'm more concerned that my attempts to help define the boundaries of the known are just dragging things to the surface better left buried or bringing too many pieces to the puzzle.

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Let the record show that I cautioned you against sharing these findings, lol.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In the spirit of getting nowhere, though, maybe Darnus was a man who always privately identified as a woman. It explains everything! :p

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</disappears into the shadows to the sound of popping corn kernels>

I don't think there is/was a localization issue, those are exceedingly rare nowadays. But besides that, the lore is mapped out well in advanced by the development teams, which includes members from each localization team. I forget who it was but one of the developers posted on here stating that a lot of the lore is mapped out in English first then translated into each language. Sadly I have no T9 experience, :'( , or 1.X experience, but from what I gather, based on what everyone has said, and their infrenses is this; Nael was a man who wished he was a woman. His comment in english "this body is not my own" could be indicating that it's not the body he grew up with. Japan is known for making characters that wish they were the other gender. Also the original Achievement for defeating him/her was called "The Crying Game" that should semi-solidify the characters archetype. Because though they seem humorous those Achievement title aren't choosen at random.

Oh, I'm not saying it's an issue, because I don't particularly care, just that the English script tends to fill in and elaborate on a lot more than gets said in the Japanese script. I can only think of a few times where the embellishments actually contradicted prior lore, but I doubt this one is such a case.

It's curiosity mostly, but since this is such an important issue to some people (Twelve know I have my own), I'm not really sure if I'd be using my powers for the greater good here.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In the spirit of getting nowhere, though, maybe Darnus was a man who always privately identified as a woman. It explains everything! :p

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As much as I doubt this is what the writers intended I would actually be quite content to think of it this way until we get more information on the subject. Mind you SE did publish Nier so they've dealt with gender identity issues before. Maybe there's a slim chance... :p

It's Menphina! *tumbleweed*

But seriously, if Nael was always a female then why do none of the scions speculate as such as though it was never a possibility? It's such a bizarre thing still to this day, how vaguely it's talked about, and what a big deal the unmasking is supposed to be. The dialogue doesn't make sense to me for a localisation cover-up, and unless Nael being trans/intersex is actually a thing (which is still extremely sketchy) the only theory I can put the slightest bit of faith in is that it's the appearance of someone significant to him, mother/Bradamante/whatever, and his "reanimation" was influenced by a final longing for them in some way. Which is poetic, but by the end of 1.X Nael is completely off the rails, so beats me.

I always assumed Nael van Darnus was actually defeated by Bradamante - who chose to pose as the general carrying on his legacy, name, and title while hiding her true self under his armor.


But who knows. We can literally make a million guesses at "her" identity and still never get it right.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

I always assumed Nael van Darnus was actually defeated by Bradamante - who chose to pose as the general carrying on his legacy, name, and title while hiding her true self under his armor.

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I actually like that idea. I believe it's been confirmed that she is not Bradamante though unfortunately. :(

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Originally Posted by Alberel

I actually like that idea. I believe it's been confirmed that she is not Bradamante though unfortunately. :(

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Well obviously not - I'd think that Nael Deus Darnus is technically a Primal - or at least a Primal thrall composed of reconstituted aether (as was Loui and Bahamut). Knowing who hid beneath the armor is entirely up to speculation still (the original Nael Van Darnus or anyone taking their identity) aka pre-Rivenroad.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Well obviously not - I'd think that Nael Deus Darnus is technically a Primal - or at least a Primal thrall composed of reconstituted aether (as was Loui and Bahamut). Knowing who hid beneath the armor is entirely up to speculation still (the original Nael Van Darnus or anyone taking their identity) aka pre-Rivenroad.

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Ah, it makes sense now. Nael was a primal summoned by Bahamut that combined the original Nael with Bahamuts confused memories of Tiamat. That's why 'she' had wings. And was female. *darksteelfoilhat equipped, but also slightly serious*

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Ah, it makes sense now. Nael was a primal summoned by Bahamut that combined the original Nael with Bahamuts confused memories of Tiamat. That's why 'she' had wings. And was female. *darksteelfoilhat equipped*

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Actually, I like that theory more than any other so far. Nael's own body being turned female as Bahamut thought of the one who summoned him, yet remaining humanoid by Nael's original sense of identity.