Tanks Advantage and Deficiencies

I want to try tanking, but I don’t have the play time hours to try all 3 to 60. I’m not necessarily looking for the “best” tank, because I assume all 3 can perform at any stage of the game. I am, however, interested in the advantages and deficiencies of each job. I want to know which tank …

1. Generates and maintains the highest threat for single target and AOE?
2. Has the highest physical mitigation and magical mitigation?
3. Has the most single target and AOE DPS (while tanking)?
4. Brings the most useful buffs/utility?

On a side note, what is the most preferred tank duo combo for end game raids?

You're asking at a tough time because DRK is new, and SE is currently touching up a little bit if balancing.

PLD has consistently been the safe bet because the mitigation is top notch, but it's lower DPS/aggro. WAR had it's ups and downs but is currently feeling a lot of love in the community (with the exception of a lot of hate for WARs who don't know the time and place for it's DPS stance from healers) because WARs have excellent DPS over the long-term, have excellent aggro and recently improved survival (which has always been heavily reliant on player ability).

DRK is new and you'll find varied opinions of it. It seems to be designed for additional MDF? But for strict mitigation I don't think it has one-up on PLD there. I've dabbled in it and it's a fun job. Healing DRK through DF has proven significantly more difficult than the other two tanks but could be due to player ability. I don't consider there to be anything special about DRK atm, other than it's fun and attractive. I expect future balancing for the job.

If you want to level something while you decide, level Gladiator because it has vital skills that all tanks need.

As far as I'm aware, here's how things stack:

Most Threat: Dark Knight, in both avenues.
Highest Physical Mitigation: Paladin
Highest Magical Mitigation: Dark Knight
Highest Burst Mitigation: Warrior
Single Target DPS: Warrior > Dark Knight > Paladin
AOE DPS: Definitely not Paladin, but I'm not sure otherwise.
Utility: Paladin has the best defensive utility, Warrior is a great middle ground between offensive and defensive, and Dark Knight is lagging behind both in this category.

Duo: I doubt that any raid group is going to leave home without a Warrior, with the preferred co-tank depending on the fight itself. Paladin's always a safe bet, but a Dark Knight is right at home when fights are on farm or if magic damage is prevalent.

Burst AoE DPS goes to DRK very easily - as a DRK I can spam a 100-potency point-blank AoE for 15-20 seconds with just 3 mobs on me...With 4-5, I can position the mobs and swap to a 120-potency targeted aoe. With enough incoming attacks, some cooldowns, and a bit of healer coordination, A good DRK can even self-heal through the incoming damage, allowing the healer to go cleric stance and help burn down the pack. :)

--Erim Nelhah
(Master, Astral Descendants <AD>, Malboro)
(60 DRK Main)

WAR AOE is frontloaded, DRK is sustained. If you have competent DPS friendlies, WAR will parse higher - it just depends on how long the encounter. DRK will eventually maybe surpass, but usually trash is dead by then. But then in situations like A3 it's competitive. I've gone both ways with the same WAR

edit: by A3 I meant A2. I can't count pass 2 apparently

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Originally Posted by Mr_Grinch

I want to try tanking, but I don’t have the play time hours to try all 3 to 60. I’m not necessarily looking for the “best” tank, because I assume all 3 can perform at any stage of the game. I am, however, interested in the advantages and deficiencies of each job. I want to know which tank …

1. Generates and maintains the highest threat for single target and AOE?
2. Has the highest physical mitigation and magical mitigation?
3. Has the most single target and AOE DPS (while tanking)?
4. Brings the most useful buffs/utility?

On a side note, what is the most preferred tank duo combo for end game raids?

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You're putting yourself in a tough spot since the only real way you can find out which tank is "best" for you is to actually level them and try it out. But to answer you questions imo:


1. Dark Knight. Only needs one Dark Arts Power Slash combo to hold hate for an entire fight. In static/over-geared dps situations, you may require 2 but that's really it. For AoE, WAR since you can spam back to back Steel Cyclone/Decimate and if you know your rotations you can fit 3 into a berserk rotation which is great for burst or mob burn situations.

2. Physical goes to PLD and magical goes to DRK. WAR does both pretty well but doesn't specialize like the other two. Notable moves for PLD include Shelltron, Bulwark, Sentinel and Hallowed Ground. DRK has Dark Mind and Delirium.

3. WAR. End of discussion. It's possible to crit over 5k easily with Fell Cleave with just Maim and Storm's Eye up in Deliverance. It can go higher if other debuffs are applied and the situation is just right. My personal best was 7.4 k in Ravana EX but that was with the i180 weapon. Decimate does exactly what its name implies in trash mob situations like A2. Times that by 3 with Berserk and you may have to change your pants afterwards.

4. This one is up for debate atm. With DRK still being fine-tuned I feel like they all bring something to the table in different party situations. So no comment right now but imo I feel like in terms of utility PLD and WAR are tops. PLD has Clemency and Divine Veil and Stoneskin if you got CNJ at 34. WAR has Storm's Path and the ability to burst dps to help meet dps checks in fights, which is a must for most progression parties. DRK has Delirium but if you have a monk in our party then its useless.

As far as endgame tanking, I've seen mostly PLD/WAR but that's only because they are the most easiest to use. However I have seen PLD/DRK and WAR/DRK occasionally so it really up to the raid as a whole. If you are planning to do end-game then you might as well lvl all 3 when you can as this is the only melee class that you can get one set to gear 3 jobs proficiently.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

You're putting yourself in a tough spot since the only real way you can find out which tank is "best" for you is to actually level them and try it out. But to answer you questions imo:


1. Dark Knight. Only needs one Dark Arts Power Slash combo to hold hate for an entire fight. In static/over-geared dps situations, you may require 2 but that's really it. For AoE, WAR since you can spam back to back Steel Cyclone/Decimate and if you know your rotations you can fit 3 into a berserk rotation which is great for burst or mob burn situations.

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actually DRK is far ahead of war when it comes to aoe aggro because of unleash and abysal drain (which can be enhanced to also heal you ... which farther increases the aggro it generates)

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

actually DRK is far ahead of war when it comes to aoe aggro because of unleash and abysal drain (which can be enhanced to also heal you ... which farther increases the aggro it generates)

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Im not gonna deny that but for 0 tp you can't really argue with the results of SC and when paired with maim, bloodbath and berserk it looks to be on par for self heals. I have both war and drk at 60 so I feel they are about the same to me in terms of aoe aggro though I prefer SC over AD for its 0 cost. Unleash maybe a 360 aoe but with good positioning Overpower can be just as effective. Abyssal Drain is great in A2 for when the adds spawn but you really shouldn't be using it outside of DA as you can easily just move to the mobs or stand near the healer and use the much cheaper Unleash.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Burst AoE DPS goes to DRK very easily - as a DRK I can spam a 100-potency point-blank AoE for 15-20 seconds with just 3 mobs on me...With 4-5, I can position the mobs and swap to a 120-potency targeted aoe. With enough incoming attacks, some cooldowns, and a bit of healer coordination, A good DRK can even self-heal through the incoming damage, allowing the healer to go cleric stance and help burn down the pack. :)

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I disagree, decimation is 280 potency that can be used twice in succession with berserk(+50% attack power), overpowered is 120 potency aswell.

Yeah best AoE DPS is with no contest WAR. DRK is no match vs. Decimate/Steel Cyclone and Overpower spam.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Yeah best AoE DPS is with no contest WAR. DRK is no match vs. Decimate/Steel Cyclone and Overpower spam.

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You must fail at your job then.

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

You must fail at your job then.

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Why is that qualifying them as a failure?
It's not surprising warrior does more aoe dps. Their skills have high potency and aren't so extremely limited in resource.

Warrior aoe dps is quite significant, whereas dark Knight has burst potential, but blood price is only up so often.

All I know is DRK's are #1 in aggro generation.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Yeah best AoE DPS is with no contest WAR. DRK is no match vs. Decimate/Steel Cyclone and Overpower spam.

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Well, technically, spamming Overpower do more damage on several mobs than Steel Cyclone or Decimate, since you can't "spam" it.
While building Wrath stacks, you will only hit one mob.

So it's basically Overpower vs Unleash+Salted Earth
And on that, DRK wins :)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, technically, spamming Overpower do more damage on several mobs than Steel Cyclone or Decimate, since you can't "spam" it.
While building Wrath stacks, you will only hit one mob.

So it's basically Overpower vs Unleash+Salted Earth
And on that, DRK wins :)

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Not necessarily, if you know when a wave of adds will spawn like in A2 you can have 5 stacks of wrath ready with an infuriate followup.
Warrior also have a dps stance were they are able to get 25% additional damage(20% from Maim and 5% from Deliverance) unlike Dark Knight that only gets 15% damage increase from Darkside.
And again I cannot stress enough how all this scales with Berserk when used correctly.

So it's not so cut and dried.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Yeah best AoE DPS is with no contest WAR. DRK is no match vs. Decimate/Steel Cyclone and Overpower spam.

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Burst damage wise war wins in aoe.

Sustain though goes to drk. Blood price, salted earth, and multiple mp based aoes outlast war no problem.

Yeah in terms of sustained AoE DPS DRK wins. But in the majority of AoE situations we can't speak about "sustained" DPS. It's all about burning everything down, in which case the WAR wins.

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Originally Posted by Madepossible

You must fail at your job then.

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You don't need to sound so salty. DRK is not really hard to play in AoE (there is no complex AoE rotation in this game except for SMN maybe, I don't play it at all so I won't speak for them). It's just that I know how to do maths and a WAR with Maim and Berserk on with 5 stacks already built can do double Decimate + spam overpower and there is no way a DRK can surpass that. Even with Salted Earth and Abyssal Drain spam under Blood Price. I think you underestimate how much damage a WAR does. Decimate can crit for 3.5k+ on every target. Overpower does over 1.2k. Yeah DRK has great AoE damage too and sustains really well, but a good WAR is just destroying everything. Decimate is a f*cking AoE combo'd Butcher's Block. Heck.

Decimate reminds me of 1.0 steel cyclone, a 1.2k critting AOE stun, that was our combo ender.

WAR has a perk of all that synergy in it's CDs. Infuriate +5 stacks, Berserk(AttackPower+) & Equil(Moar TP for OP) & Veneance(AoE auto Attack) all + 1 stack. +1 stack for each refreshing of Maim = Moar Decimate/Steel Cyclone with added perks increasing dps and mitigation.

DRK AoE all shares the same resource, depleting use, and comes at the cost of DA Dark Dance/Dark Mind. Did you DA Abyssal Drain? That might cost you a DA for Passenger. Did you AD too much instead of Unleash? That might cost you a Passenger. Are you OOMP? Goodbye Darkside, DA DM & DD, threat gen, and all the dps and mitigation that goes with that. Blood Price helps, but it's not a guarantee, we can't flesh out an AOE rotation like WAR because the amount of MP Blood Price returns in one encounter won't be the same the next.

And is the WHM doing Holy spam? Hope you didn't pop Blood Price - cuz if you did it just got wasted.

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Originally Posted by Erim-Nelhah

Burst AoE DPS goes to DRK very easily - as a DRK I can spam a 100-potency point-blank AoE for 15-20 seconds with just 3 mobs on me...With 4-5, I can position the mobs and swap to a 120-potency targeted aoe. With enough incoming attacks, some cooldowns, and a bit of healer coordination, A good DRK can even self-heal through the incoming damage, allowing the healer to go cleric stance and help burn down the pack. :)

--Erim Nelhah
(Master, Astral Descendants <AD>, Malboro)
(60 DRK Main)

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Hah - I disagree with the a good dark can even self-heal through incoming damage. Yes we have siphons but nothing that will counter the damage we take. Not strong enough life siphons. Wish they healed for more. Right now they're negligible, especially in the higher end content. Even a DA + Abyssal doesn't do much because mobs hit harder then what we siphon

All this AoE talk and us Paladins are over here like

CoS go !!! Pew Pew !! Flash , then just rotate around the mobs with Halone lol. Give me Snap on Halone and like a 25 pot Flash lol

:)

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

WAR has a perk of all that synergy in it's CDs. Infuriate +5 stacks, Berserk(AttackPower+) & Equil(Moar TP for OP) & Veneance(AoE auto Attack) all + 1 stack. +1 stack for each refreshing of Maim = Moar Decimate/Steel Cyclone with added perks increasing dps and mitigation.

DRK AoE all shares the same resource, depleting use, and comes at the cost of DA Dark Dance/Dark Mind. Did you DA Abyssal Drain? That might cost you a DA for Passenger. Did you AD too much instead of Unleash? That might cost you a Passenger. Are you OOMP? Goodbye Darkside, DA DM & DD, threat gen, and all the dps and mitigation that goes with that. Blood Price helps, but it's not a guarantee, we can't flesh out an AOE rotation like WAR because the amount of MP Blood Price returns in one encounter won't be the same the next.

And is the WHM doing Holy spam? Hope you didn't pop Blood Price - cuz if you did it just got wasted.

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i dont use DA with dark dance or dark passenger at all... it is rather counterproductive to be dodging when you want to parry...

A good War will do more AOE DPS than a Drk, especially in places like A2. You try to compete as a Drk and you'll be out of MP and have no way to hold AOE enmity on the next pack that comes, and say goodbye to Darkside. That burst War can do is all that matters, because the mobs wont live past that, and they're left off in a better position where they aren't screwed on resources. AOE takes a really, really heavy toll on a Drk's MP, which also so happens to be their source of AOE enmity generation. Blood price helps, sure, but there have been plenty fo times where I cant even get a good use out of Blood Price because as soon as we stack the mobs up, the War just goes berzerk and the mobs just blow up on him. Even with Unleash/Abyssal spam, I cant take them back.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

i dont use DA with dark dance or dark passenger at all... it is rather counterproductive to be dodging when you want to parry...

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In a situation where you're tanking a bunch of mobs at once, Dodge > Parry. Assuming the dodge chance is even worth it, like it is in dungeons.

You don't want to parry just so you can reprisal one of them, you want dodge damage all together if you have the option to. Parry does absolutely nothing for us outside of Reprisal and Low Blow procs, which aren't worth taking frontload damage constantly if you instead have the option to dodge.

the more you parry the more often you can use low blow because it has a chance (however small) to have its CD reset on a parry.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

the more you parry the more often you can use low blow because it has a chance (however small) to have its CD reset on a parry.

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or you can dodge, not take damage, and let your healer's AoE damage.

But I personally like to get hit with blood price on and spam DA Abyssal drains with defensive cool downs on. Seems to be over all more effective.

DRKs are able to AOE fairly long with careful management of Blood price, Syphon and Carve and Spit.

DRKS have solo tanked Faust and the adds in alex savage Turn 1 easy.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

the more you parry the more often you can use low blow because it has a chance (however small) to have its CD reset on a parry.

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And in a situation where you are tanking many mobs at once and have the option to dodge, this does nothing for you.

Dark dance and a pack of mobs let's you stun quite a few in sequence. Really shoots up your survivability.

Or it adds a free 100 oGCD attack for you all the time. Useful on Faust!