Alexander Party Finder, and basic respect

Alright, so - a recent frustration I am having when I lead party finders of late is that people only want to run until they get their item. This is usually not a problem at all - usually people will do their item + 2 runs and that's a good way to call it for the week. That's cool on things like Shiva, as you're at least putting in some charity runs for your other party members.


But with Alexander Normal Mode, I've seen an increasing amount of party finders with the following description -

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A# - 4 runs and then disband. Please know the fight or be kicked. No law message.

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these runs are awesome. They let people do their run, get in and get out - regardless if they get the item they wanted or not. They're perfect for the kind of player who doesn't think about what items they want to get, specifically, and will help those players go a -long- way.

However, when I make a party finder...

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A# - Stay until everyone has an item. Please know the fight - send tell with any questions/concerns.

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I have noticed an increasing number of people who take this to represent 'only 4 runs.' and will often try to hijack my party into a 4 run party. I believe that, if you are the kind of person that only w ants to do 4 runs, please stay out of these kinds of parties.

These farming runs are intended to be for people who want to ensure htey get a specific item. However, when you enter in and try to thrust your concept of '4 runs and done' on the party, it is extremely rude and disrespectful. It makes it clear you only care about yourself when you leave before everyone gets an item - and I even make it clear before the party starts.

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Alright, so just to be clear - we're going until everyone has an item. This might take more than 4 runs if people are after the same item and it doesn't drop enough. If you're not going to stay for the full runs - please leave now. Otherwise, let's have fun. :)

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Usually there are no complaints to this. But the moment we're on run #6, people start bailing. Last night, I had a member say he was leaving because his FC was bugging him to come do maps. Welcome to black list.

I have had to pick up PUG's at this point to get the last person their item, locking the specific drop they want to them (Which sucks for the PUG coming in but they get uncontested lot rights on the second item) and scrambling to pick people up.

So, I suppose the Tl;dr is...

Tl;dr
Be mindful when you join a party finder. Be respectful of what the party seeks from the party. If real life emergencies happen, that is all well and good - but do not ditch out to go do other things in game just because you have your item and you don't want to run more than 4 runs. That's extremely disrespectful to the time of others.

Trying to force someone to stay longer than they might like is disrespectful as well. 6 runs is about an hour. That's about as long as you can expect to keep 7 random people. Want anything else, form a static and go with 8 people you know.

Yes, I know your argument is going to be that you specified staying until you get your item. That's just not reasonable when it could be 10-20-30 runs before everyone gets their item. It's different if it's something like Ravana/Bismarck where everyone will get their item in a maximum of 10 tries. I've done A4 numerous times and have only seen the torso item drop one time. What if everyone wanted that one piece and your group had the same luck as I've had?

My advice? Suck it up and stick with 4 and reform. Let anyone who wants to stay because they haven't had their drop or they're farming Esoterics stay.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

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My arguement is not that I specified that, it is that they joined under that specification. If they had an issue with taking (possibly) up to 2 hours to ensure all 8 members got the item they wanted (And let's be fair here - that is an extreme over-exaggeration. It might take upwards an hour, MAYBE an hour and a half), then I just don't w ant them to join the party finder at all.

I think that's where you and I diverge on thoughts. Don't join my party if you cant' fufill the requirements. If someone doesn't want to stay longer, suck it up and wait for a PF to open up wtih your specifications. But don't join mine. Simple.

I wonder which of our methods would bear more fruit.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

I wonder which of our methods would bear more fruit.

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Mine works pretty well. I won't deny, it's a minority of people that loot-and-scoot. And like I said, they get blacklisted for being inconsiderate to 7 other people.

I think your own method is fine, And I respect you for it just fine - just don't join my party finders if, for example, you plan to join and then leave (As I see we're from the same server) before everyone gets their item.

Also, no one is forcing someone to stay against their will. They joined willingly - I think that's another issue I have with your arguement. You make it sound like I'm holding a gun to their head, but nothing -forces- someone to join a PF.

Yeah, I can agree with this. Don't like what party leader sets up, don't join.

Stuff does happen, and if it goes too long you may need to go(ie; I have 120m before my static but this shouldn't take more than that, right? Or emergency stuff) but if you're going to leave for something that boils down to "I got mine early and don't want to wait" then yeah, don't.

the problem here is that you CANNOT demand people to stay until RNG decides you get what you want since we all know how long that can take if RNG hates you. hence why most players say : after 6-8 runs your item didnt drop/you didnt win it TRY AGAIN later. had to do that myself.

you cannot force people to fight RNG since sometimes that could be all day long tough its not likely to happen IT CAN happen. and come next week everyone who wants to get done with normal mode gearing and has done it since first week MUST have 1 item per floor and the other 2 are already useless to em. so this will get worse towards the end.

this is why RNG still remains bad gameplay when it comes to loot like this. even tough its ALOT better than what tower loot was were you ran over 30 times to ever SEE your loot once. it still needs tuning for future content. for the current one its to late to change it now.

a simple fix imo would be to have 3-4 items drop instead of 2. this would increase chances alot.

so this is not players fault on the end and is fully to blame on the devs actually. they want people to fight RNG and this is the result. nobody likes fighting RNG endlessly. thats not fun. plain and simple. they couild just have used the ravana token system instead which imo is a very good solution.

but both are alot better than what old CT or coil were.

-->party finder

-->basic respect

Nope.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

the problem here is that you CANNOT demand people to stay until RNG decides you get what you want since we all know how long that can take if RNG hates you. hence why most players say : after 6-8 runs your item didnt drop/you didnt win it TRY AGAIN later. had to do that myself.

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The point of the thread is, as a party leader who clearly states the party rules in party finder, he should be able to expect people to follow the rules as stated. No one is forced to join the party, but if a person joins, they're expected to follow the rules. There are alternative parties (usually 4 runs and disband) available for those who don't want to stay until everyone gets their loot.

I completely disagree.. eight random/non freecompany people = 8 runs is good enough. No one is the boss of anyone in this game regardless of some of the ridiculous "RULES" that I sometimes see in these party finders. If this raid system had more loot drops per fight then the crappy standard one or 2 drops, we won't be having this problem. You (party leader) didn't get the item you wanted after 8 runs, then call it quits for the day and move on.

The OP isn't forcing anyone to do anything.. He even makes the rules of HIS party finder clear before starting. His method or rules don't need to be criticised. The point is people are joining, knowing the rules, and not following them.

It's exactly the same as stating 'no bonus' in a difficult fight, having someone with the bonus join, getting carried and leaving the party. If there are rules on the party finder then have some respect, stop being selfish and don't join if you're not willing to follow them.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

I completely disagree.. eight random/non freecompany people = 8 runs is good enough. No one is the boss of anyone in this game regardless of some of the ridiculous "RULES" that I sometimes see in these party finders. If this raid system had more loot drops per fight then the crappy standard one or 2 drops, we won't be having this problem. You (party leader) didn't get the item you wanted after 8 runs, then call it quits for the day and move on.

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Or...just don't join that person's Party Finder if you don't want to adhere to their rules? It's not rocket science, mate.

Oh jeezus.

I had this same problem today. A first timer joined a Ravana clear attempt and needed the phases and markings explained to him. When he was called out on it (not in the party btw, but in a linkshell), he said "there are no practice parties!". I said "make one", he literally said "I DO WHAT I WANT DON'T LECTURE ME IT'S JUST A GAME!"

I 100% agree with the TS. A party finder has a description for this very reason. If you DO NOT LIKE THE RULES, then DO NOT JOIN or guess what, MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN PARTY INSTEAD OF HIJACKING SOMEONE ELSE'S.

BRAIN, USE IT!

I forgot to mention this happened to my friend and I the other day. We used PF and we only wanted 4 runs. After the 4 runs people were free to leave, whether everyone had loot or not. We filled, ran the duty, someone looted and then said 'thanks bye' and left. I actually went to the extent of /telling her and asking why she joined a farm party which CLEARLY stated you MUST stay for 4 runs if you're going to join, and she said 'I'm going to raid with my FC now.'

I blacklisted her and so did the 6 other people left in the party. By leaving you are forcing us to find someone else and having to do even more runs just because you're selfish and don't want to follow the rules. Just don't do it.

You had me up until 'welcome to Blacklist'. Six runs is a long time, and a lot of things can happen in that period of time. People can log in that you have other responsibilities to that are pressuring you so you have to decide which group is more important (and, lets be honest, people you are actually friends with are going to tend to be more so). Shit can happen in the real world. You could just end up getting migraines. You can't really know what's going to happen an hour in the future.

If they stuck around for six rounds, especially if they got their item within the first four (or didn't get it at all) and need to leave for, basically, any unexpected reason, then whatever. So long as they joined with the intent to stay, I don't see why it's that big of a deal. Shit happens. People have lives.

I mean, yes, if someone gets their loot and immediately ditches right after, that's one thing. If someone sticks around for an hour helping other people, however, and, then something comes up that's just the way life goes. There's very few people that can truly and completely guarantee that nothing will happen in an hour. Hell, sometimes you join a dungeon run and in the 20 minutes it takes to finish that something comes up where you need to leave. It's rare, but other players aren't robots sitting there playing endlessly. They have lives, friends, social obligations, health issues, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

-->people

-->basic respect

Nope.

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Fixed that for you!

There's so many pugs that just leave after they get their shinies, that I've resorted to only farming it with the FC and frands, usually during the reset day to make it easier for everyone. :/

This is why CT is considered better designed than Alexander. It prevented people from running it on repeat until they are about ready to explode. Also, it should have been completely separated from savage mode Alexander because we now have a situation where hardcore players set the expectations for how people are supposed to do Alexander normal. This is by far the worst raid setup (setup, not difficulty) in Final Fantasy XIV:ARR's history. If they had just done what people were asking eons ago and implemented a multi-tier raid like what WoW did in Wrath of the Lich King, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Forget that. I get more annoyed by people who loot and leave after one run in "Stay until everyone gets their drop/4 runs-disband" parties more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

This is why CT is considered better designed than Alexander. It prevented people from running it on repeat until they are about ready to explode.

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Clearly you never ran WoD for 3 hours straight to never see a single piece of (your class here) gear drop.

I have. Every goddamn week when it was still locked.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Clearly you never ran WoD for 3 hours straight to never see a single piece of (your class here) gear drop.

I have. Every goddamn week when it was still locked.

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And how is that different from how I ran "Labyrinth of the Ancients" or "Syrcus Tower" when those were locked content? Still better than competing with every single party member for drops and at least in CT everyone is required to cycle the bosses. In Alexander everyone kills the same boss on repeat 4-5 times before moving onto the next one. That is not fun. Moreover, for most weeks in CT, you'd get your piece in 2-3 runs and be done. Alexander forces players to kill the bosses twice as much for tokens that do not translate to an item unless you have X number of them.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

And how is that different from how I ran Labyrinth of the Ancients or Syrcus Tower when those were locked content? Still better than competing with every single party member for drops and at least in CT everyone is required to cycle the bosses. In Alexander everyone kills the same boss on repeat 4-5 times before moving onto the next one. That is not fun.

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Whether or not it was more or less fun wasn't my point. And I could go either way on that.

It's just that you claimed Alex was grindier and incentivized going into the same instance over and over doing the same thing over and over. Or, in your words 'run it on repeat until they're ready to explode.' My point was that CT did the same thing, and really, CT and Alex probably work out to taking about the same amount of time to fully gear someone up. And, as for being ready to explode, I don't think I've ever despised something that I once enjoyed as much as every single boss in WoD. They were great at first, so much fun. At this point, though, I think I'd rather be punched in the face than punch the brick of useless health that is Five Headed Dragon to death again (Hate LotA, too. . . ST doesn't really bother me despite having run that a million times, though--probably because of how fast it got to be when doing the dailies near the end of the patch cycle). I may end up feeling that way about Alex, eventually, too. It's likely, even. My point isn't that one is better than the other in that regard--but rather that both have that particular problem.

Also: It's super rare that you're actually competing with every single party member. As soon as most people get a left side piece, or 4 right side pieces--or in other words has done it 1 or 2 weeks--they no longer want that piece (yes you can use it to gear alts but most people don't have every class to 60, and know this stuff will be outdated by the time they do, so they're just getting x number of each item). Plus lots of people are prioritizing certain pieces and aren't rolling on things they don't have yet because they want to make sure they upgrade x piece because its secondaries are better than y esoterics piece, or it's the best increase over their current gear for savage, or they just got a lens from A2 already and they want a piece of gear this week so they aren't rolling on cranks or springs in A3--just want that other lens. Or because they already got their drops, but it's good esoterics per hour--and not as annoying as Neverreap.

I won all four of my items with rolls in the twenties this week in DF with around half the group immediately leaving without rolling on either.

I agree with the OP, to an extent. I set up parties like this, generally: "A# Farm Party! Know the fight, No bonus, Stay until everyone gets loot (4+ runs)!" I had one person leave without loot after 2 runs because something came up (sucks to be him, but someone else got lucky), and most of the time my parties break up after exactly 4 runs, leaving 1-2 people having to do another entire farm cycle (or risk the DF) for their loot. That said, while I have yet to blist anyone for leaving my parties, I think it's bad form to join a party that says "until everyone gets loot" and then not stay for at least 1-2 extra runs if necessary. Remember, your unwillingness to stay for an extra 10-15 mins could cost someone an hour or more depending on their luck.

--Erim Nelhah
(Master, Astral Descendants <AD> Malboro)
(60 DRK Main)

Op next time you should add an estimated timeframe (i.e possibly stay for an hour and a half ) so ppl can expect how long it can take.
" till everyone gets loot " = rng i know but u still have to understand some ppl can't spend 5 hrs straight doing a3 till everyone gets a drop.

You people are such control freaks.

Problem with disagreeing logic here is simple.

Don't like the leaders rules, don't join the party and make your own, just like he did.

He didn't like the rules of the existing parties so he made his own.

Nothing more obnoxious than someone trying to take your group over because they didn't like the rules iinstead of finding/making another.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Problem with disagreeing logic here is simple.

Don't like the leaders rules, don't join the party and make your own, just like he did.

He didn't like the rules of the existing parties so he made his own.

Nothing more obnoxious than someone trying to take your group over because they didn't like the rules iinstead of finding/making another.

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Bolded for emphasis. @_@ Had a great party today though. We kept getting chains which no one wanted, but ultimately we got all our drops. I think it ultimately only took an hour to an hour and a half. Was pretty fun and nice to not have to deal with quitters for once.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Welcome to black list.

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>_> I just have to say this because out of 15 years of mmos, I've never seen so many people being so sensitive to everything that they throw around blist. I've actually seen someone shout asking for something, someone replied but made a mistake, dude announces he blisted the guy >_> Really?
I remember back in the day, people would just suck it up and deal with it, unless the person was either being a complete jerk or ninja looted gear multiple times, then they'd blist. But now it seems people blist for the stupidest reasons like they get offended by the tiniest things ever.

"Dps sucks? Blist"
"Someone made a joke I didn't get? Blist"
"That person shouted for something, after waiting an hour? That's spam! blist!" Actually had this one happen back during 2.0 release, when everyone was shouting about their fc. Did a shout in Ul'dah, did a few dungeons, afked for a bit, about 2 hours later did another shout, someone flipped out claiming spam and blisted lol Fun fact, waiting more than 5 minutes to shout again, is not spam.

tl;dr - blacklisting for stupid tiny stuff makes you look like you can't handle any sort of situation. Learn to suck it up and be a man/woman