Done with AST

Yes yes another one of these "oh no AST sux lol plz buff us" threads but I would just like SE to see that there's yet another AST unhappy with their job.

Now don't get me wrong I like the flare of the class, and I can even deal with the RNG cards. But when a WHM can follow a tank into a dungeon where the tank pulls 2+ groups of mobs and be fine, and I will go dry on MP before the mobs come to half and most of the time the tank doesn't even survive that long because I simply do not have the throughput, is rubbish.

So I'll be going back to my WHM with a full healing kit until you fix this poor job you so deem a "healer". I understand we have utility in card's that can do all kind's of cool things. And for other classes, such as BRDs and MCHs that deal a bit less damage because of their utility that's cool. But it simply does not work for a healing class. Just wanted to express my dissatisfaction with a class I was looking forward to playing and not beta testing. Thanks.

=( I feel you. Still not giving up on mine but the past 2 fractal runs I've done on AST have been a nightmare mainly because of things not dying fast, dps not evading, low ilvl tank. I've saved the runs but it feels like a struggle, on WHM i could add much more to make the runs faster and less tedious for me. It's making me want to play the job less.... but I am still hanging in there, waiting for the fixes. I have faith in Yoshi and team.

Edit: nvm, for some reason I swear your AST showed level 52 >.<

I had yesterday this in neverreap where tank pulled too much and died, i was unable to heal that fast and he died. He acknowledged that AST had some healing issues and will not pull that much. I was pretty sure that if i was SCH he wouldn't have died.

I'm still playing and gearing up, but as Alexander starts i might start to get people complaining. So far not anyone complains, because i know the content that i'm doing and how to handle it even though it's to play as AST is like playing with other 2 healers on "very hard" mode. But as I get closer to full end game content, i'm getting discouraged and looking into other jobs or crafting jobs to pass my time until it's fixed.

what bothers me mostly is that almost every ability that AST has is a weaker copy of WHM/SCH ability - from the dps abilities to heals. And every unique ability that AST has is gimmics that doesn't bring anything meaningful to the party.

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Originally Posted by Rewind

But you aren't even at the level 60 cap?

How can you make a final decision without even experiencing the play at end game?

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Because at the end game it gets even worse, AST is pratically unable to do alex savage.

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Originally Posted by Akyio

Because at the end game it gets even worse, AST is pratically unable to do alex savage.

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I disagree - its not unable to do anything. It can heal just fine, including savage A1 atleast but the other healers simply have more utility and make it cleaner. It's okay to dislike the playstyle but there is no need for dramatics.

If you're having mana problems, you could Time Dilate your Luminiferous Aether in order to get 30 sec of refresh (not sure if it's possible, I'm personally only lv31 in the class), and you should make sure you're in Nocturnal Sect when you're only needing to heal the tank. Diurnal Sect is really only good if you're pre-50 or if there's a consistent hp drain on the entire group.

Time Dilate is not castable on yourself unfortunately :( And I don't want to talk about how terrible Nocturnal Sect is and it's amazing 1k absorb shield :3

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

If you're having mana problems, you could Time Dilate your Luminiferous Aether in order to get 30 sec of refresh (not sure if it's possible, I'm personally only lv31 in the class), and you should make sure you're in Nocturnal Sect when you're only needing to heal the tank. Diurnal Sect is really only good if you're pre-50 or if there's a consistent hp drain on the entire group.

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You can't time dilate yourself, you can only "celestial opposition" yourself to get 5 seconds of extra refresh( i think it gives extra 2 ticks possibly )
also actually nocturnal is not good :/ it's nice, but i never used it ever, unless im in a level 50 trial with a WHM, then i use it for fun otherwise there's a lot of overheal.
later when u get time dilation it's much better to just aspect benefic a tank + buff + time dilate in diurnal, and switch to cleric stance to dps a bit.

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Originally Posted by Nasrin

Time Dilate is not castable on yourself unfortunately :( And I don't want to talk about how terrible Nocturnal Sect is and it's amazing 1k absorb shield :3

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That unfortunately makes Time Dilate next to useless. I should add though that Nocturnal sect also increases your healing magic potency by 5% and the absorb shield scales with how much you heal for, which means you're practically doubling the amount that you're healing that target for. There's also Synastry which is great when you need to aoe heal, and you should pretty much be using Lightspeed whenever you need to spam for the lowered MP costs.

Aspected Nocturnal Benefic potency: 262.5 (barrier)
Aspected Nocturnal Helios potency: 147 (aoe barrier)
Nocturnal Benefic potency: 399
Nocturnal Benefic II potency: 651
Nocturnal Helios potency: 304.5 (aoe)
Nocturnal Essential Dignity potency: 420-1050

EDIT: Now that I look at it, they really need to increase the Nocturnal Aspected Helios potency. It's straight up better to use the regular Helios otherwise, especially since you save MP doing so.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

That unfortunately makes Time Dilate next to useless. etc

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Problem with Nocturnal is it just doesn't do enough. In Diurnal 2 ticks of the HoT surpasses the shield and when the tank's getting his face pummeled and you're spamming Benefic II (which is BAD but we have little choice or he's on the floor) you need all the throughput you can get. Lightspeed is ok now that it doesn't gimp healing but it doesn't make you heal faster, as much as the name suggest's it would. My heal's will come out faster but with a 2.5s recast time still present I'm really not doing any more HPS then I would just casting, I'm just getting the heal out first then paying the "cast time" by waiting for the recast to finish. Makes me sad D:

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Originally Posted by Nasrin

Problem with Nocturnal is it just doesn't do enough. In Diurnal 2 ticks of the HoT surpasses the shield...

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It's all from a matter of perspective. For example:

Nocturnal A. Benefic total potency: 262.5 x 2 = 525
Diurnal A. Benefic total potency: 190 + 100 x 6 = 790

It would take 4 ticks of Diurnal Aspected Benefic's Regen in order to surpass Nocturnal's potency. I'm not sure if this effect even stacks with Collective Unconscious and Aspected Helios, but it takes roughly 12 seconds (Affected by spell speed) for the Diurnal version to surpass the Nocturnal version. On the flip side though, you are maximizing the effectiveness of your mana consumption for that one particular spell since a Nocturnal player may be more inclined to try to spam Nocturnal (which they shouldn't) and it's incredibly easy to use the Diurnal version of the spell effectively. Once again though, I'm only level 31 in the class and I have more of a tank's perspective on the class than a healer's.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

Snip

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Nah, I stopped having problems with current dungeons when I started using Diurnal & ditch Nocturnal completely. The shield only helps with spike dmg, not sustaining long fights. You'll waste more MP in the long run & will most likely out of MP near the end of dungeon boss fight.

Noc is completely useless & underpowered right now, there should be no reason to use it, unless you got pair with another AST partner.

Regarding OP's problem, it's gonna take some practices to run current dungeons smoothly with AST. I can run them while being able to push out good dps at the same time, even spam gravity, without any MP issues. It just takes more focus than WHM/SCH, and only gets a lot harder at Bisex & savage.

But then again, I do have a leveled SCH, there's really no reason for me to run as an AST anymore, cause I can rush dungeons faster & less stressful as a SCH anyways.

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Originally Posted by Nasrin

*snip*

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I don't get these complains. Why is everyone but apparently me having problems with AST? Especially in Dungeons it's usually just double HoT and Gravity spam - which in fact really burns your mana quickly, but well, for other reasons than you mentioned^^.
Even in all Alex turns, I neither have mana problems nor healing problems. But well, it's up to you if you want to change your class *waves goodbye* :P.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

*snip*I'm personally only lv31 in the class.*snip*

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No offense mate, but Nocturnal is just not worth it. If it would be possible to Sect-Dance infight it might get a BIT more useful. But in most encounters you fare better with Diurnal. Especially considering that Nocturnal shields don't stack with SCH shields, while Diurnal HoTs stack with WHM HoTs. Please try out abilities before you praise them ;).

P.S.: Sry for the double post.

The class can heal fine. But I personally think it depends on RNG a little too much. Considering how unforgiving it can be.

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Originally Posted by YuiSasaki

I don't get these complains. Why is everyone but apparently me having problems with AST? Especially in Dungeons it's usually just double HoT and Gravity spam - which in fact really burns your mana quickly, but well, for other reasons than you mentioned^^.
Even in all Alex turns, I neither have mana problems nor healing problems. But well, it's up to you if you want to change your class *waves goodbye* :P.

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Cold hard numbers suggest otherwise. It sits 500+hps behind a WHM in Diurnal, and about the same behind a SCH in Nocturnal, lacks any kind of emergency healing capability beyond Essential Dignity (which lets be honest, is a Lustrate once every 40 secs), and the card buffs are lackluster and inefficient. Also we are analysing this class as a raid Healer, not a lol "i can do some dungeons with it" healer. It has to be as capable as the other 2 healers in the game to seen as properly tuned (all classes have to be tuned top down).

Nice to see you have had no mana issues what-so-ever in all of Alexander savage yet and that your raid group isnt compensating at all for AST healing in savage.

Have experienced low potency issues preventing me from keeping up for the full duration of the tanks large pull where my WHM and SCH never had issues.

Have not had mp issues outside of the last boss of The Aery where I abused my mp. Also, I use both stances

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

*snip*

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First off, I must correct myself, because I said that I was refering to ALL of Alex, as of some RL in the past weeks I did not manage to go more than twice to A1 Sav.
(Yet, some might flame OMFG TROLOLOL stop talking before you went Alex savage)
Yet the OP was refering to dungeons and pulling multiple mob groups which led me to also refering to dungeons (and equal -> alex(normal)).
Also I don't want to be nit-picky yet, I did not see any other posts from you in this thread so talking in "we" is probably misplaced :X

Yet, I agree that there are still some flaws with AST. However (final) balancing is not done in a few weeks (or at least it should not be), therefore it is to be expected that AST will stay - let's say a bit - behind the other two heals for a while.
The most important thing for me is though, that I have fun with AST, and if I reach the endcontent one or two weeks after the "progression fanatics" is of no relevance to me.

Anyway, I guess I have to visit A1S some time soon to see it for myself, how bad/well AST fares there.

Well, I think they could make a start by removing the lower potency compared to WHM / SCH. Even if the potencies match, ASTs don't have the rest of a WHM/SCH kit that makes them what they are, so it's not like they'd be outclassed (especially given AST's lack of healing related cooldowns). Without the ability to freely switch between sects they may have shot themselves in the foot with ever making AST a desirable serious end-game healer. Instead of being the inferior middle-man of both existing jobs they should've given them a unique healing mechanic. The cards are great and refreshing, especially considering how streamlined they've tried to make other jobs (mch isn't that dissimilar to bard, every tank now has an enmity combo and a branching-finisher 2nd combo etc), but we don't have dedicated support roles in this game, it is a healer. It *can* heal all the current content, but not without considerably more stress than the others. Stress the entire party will feel.

Considering they're half-Time Mage anyway (Gravity, various timer-tinkering skills) I don't know why they didn't run with that theme in the healing department too. Maybe make them a primarily HoT class, with skills that can consume the remaining ticks for a quicker burst heal, extend them much as they can with Time Dilation / CO etc. A couple more intersting CDs like Synastry...

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Originally Posted by YuiSasaki

Also I don't want to be nit-picky yet, I did not see any other posts from you in this thread so talking in "we" is probably misplaced :X

Yet, I agree that there are still some flaws with AST. However (final) balancing is not done in a few weeks (or at least it should not be), therefore it is to be expected that AST will stay - let's say a bit - behind the other two heals for a while.
The most important thing for me is though, that I have fun with AST, and if I reach the endcontent one or two weeks after the "progression fanatics" is of no relevance to me.

Anyway, I guess I have to visit A1S some time soon to see it for myself, how bad/well AST fares there.

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I refere to it as "we" since i am very prolific in posting in the healer forums referring to the AST topics that are currently being discussed.

The issues from AST healing really do stem from its inability to meet the same sort of healing checks as WHM and SCH do in end game content. They also put too much burden on the other healers in this content, thus making their ability to contribute to healing+dps lower.

I love the concept and the visulisation of AST, but currently it just doesnt cut it in end game content. It has to be balanced like all classes are: around end game content, in a top-down fashion.

Ast was made for pvp everything else is like meh lol.
That noct shield op as u can cast and cast it over again with 3 dps smashing ur face in and ur just like lel.
In PvE tho, u go oom and everyone dies lol.

I'm glad people are raising concerns with AST just in normal grouping situations as well. I feel it doesn't get enough attention with so many people running in premades where execution is always flawless and claiming AST can handle all content before savage Alex with ease.

If you get a bad group in DF as an AST you will easily start testing the limits of your job and seeing shortcomings without the need to step into the most challenging content of the game.

Can I just ask though to the people that defend AST so bad, like why do you? I mean what is so good about AST that you need to suffer through it and keep playing it? Just boredom of WHM and SCH or something and need change? There's just so many people complaining about it I don't get why people want to use it so badly unless you just like a big challenge or something I guess.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

Can I just ask though to the people that defend AST so bad, like why do you? I mean what is so good about AST that you need to suffer through it and keep playing it? Just boredom of WHM and SCH or something and need change? There's just so many people complaining about it I don't get why people want to use it so badly unless you just like a big challenge or something I guess.

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Personally, because I like cards. I like the core design (in theory, not so much in practice on its current state). It's a fast healer and a buffer (cards), at that. It's like a mix of RDM and COR, 2 jobs I mained in FFXI. :3 It's like I found my true love. When I use Lightpseed I feel like I'm Chainspelling on RDM. :o

WHM is okay, but I got bored of the same ol' aero spells and stones, I didn't like the Holy nerf #2 (the only spell that kept WHM fun for me) and the constant misses when trying to have a lil bit more fun by DPSing in raids (at least on AST I know Comb and Comb 2 will always hit). In fact, if RDM had been available from the start I probably would've picked that one instead. It's weird you know because I really liked WHM in FFXI, I leveled it to 99, geared it up and I just loved casting those huge Cure V, VI's, using Protectra and Shellra V, Raise III, Banish III, Haste, etc. =( I liked the noble's tunic so much and the puffy pants look on WHMs.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

*snip*

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I totally agree with Tyla. Perhaps, the "difficulty" in healing is what keeps me playing at AST.

Not to forget: Far too many people tend to QQ for nothing, only to balance either their e-peen or their inability to play a certain class (-> see them DD threads like "QQ BUFF CLASS X PLX ITS UNDERPOWERED BY FAR"). I agree AST still needs some tweaks, but especially regarding those buff-requests by some people here in the official forum...

And playing a class that got buffed to the max... is just plain boring...

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Originally Posted by Akyio

I had yesterday this in neverreap where tank pulled too much and died, i was unable to heal that fast and he died. He acknowledged that AST had some healing issues and will not pull that much. I was pretty sure that if i was SCH he wouldn't have died.

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Your issue likely comes from not prepping your cards before hand generally for big pulls I have a extended Ewer on hold and use it with with LA and CD to extend both timers by 5 seconds so I rarely run out of mp.

AST isn't for inexperienced healers due to it's low potency and dependency on mp management (as a duo those two factors make life especially hard when you aren't managing). Also the cards require you to understand how the party works.

BUT, it's low potency is what makes it so fun. I mean there are things that you can always be doing as a SCH/WHM but a lot of the times DPSing as a healer is really boring, and the extra stuff we can do is just unnecessary a lot of the time (extra Stoneskins in downtime etc). Basically the aspects that many people struggle with on AST are exactly what makes it enjoyable. Not saying it doesn't need to be reworked a bit, but I'd be voting for more utility that can put AST on par with WHM/SCH.

The over the top dramatics in this thread is palpable. Astrology a few % weaker in this thread does not even compare to uselessness.

I can't comment about ast in savage, but in the expert dungeons or normal alex, I have not ran into the difficulty so many people are talking about even in such simple content. Even in full pug, where things go wrong. Especially since the recent buffs we got.

Synastry and Lightspeed actually saved us from wiping on a big pull in neverreap, where I know if I was on WHM it would have been a wipe.

But, I do still think ast does need a buff for nocturnal sect. I was talking to a friend about CO in noct sect, and his idea was that it should increase potency. Of both cards and shields.

I dont understand people saying cant heal big pulls in lvl 60 dungeons as AST. Im astrologian and i can heal all big pulls in dungeons 60 even if the tank gear sucks.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

The over the top dramatics in this thread is palpable. Astrology a few % weaker in this thread does not even compare to uselessness.

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Tell that to a lot of progression groups having AST sit out on savage. Seen several PF groups for A1 savage that specifically state no AST.

Right now AST bring nothing to the table except stress to the party. Until that is fixed they will continue to be consigned into the trash bin of Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Kaizersan

Your issue likely comes from not prepping your cards before hand generally for big pulls I have a extended Ewer on hold and use it with with LA and CD to extend both timers by 5 seconds so I rarely run out of mp.

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if tank dies then it's normally not MP issue, i started having barely any mp issues since the patch because of lightspeed + ewer changes, i also started using CO to extend LA for 5 more seconds.
the problem is there's not much to do except spam benefic II with a regen on top of it.

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Originally Posted by Shyluv

I can't comment about ast in savage, but in the expert dungeons or normal alex, I have not ran into the difficulty so many people are talking about even in such simple content. Even in full pug, where things go wrong. Especially since the recent buffs we got.

Synastry and Lightspeed actually saved us from wiping on a big pull in neverreap, where I know if I was on WHM it would have been a wipe.

But, I do still think ast does need a buff for nocturnal sect. I was talking to a friend about CO in noct sect, and his idea was that it should increase potency. Of both cards and shields.

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What? Impossible to do with WHM? With Cure III, Tetra, Benediction and Divine Seal? LightSpeed only gives you 1 instacast free of global cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Shyluv

I can't comment about ast in savage, but in the expert dungeons or normal alex, I have not ran into the difficulty so many people are talking about even in such simple content. Even in full pug, where things go wrong. Especially since the recent buffs we got.

Synastry and Lightspeed actually saved us from wiping on a big pull in neverreap, where I know if I was on WHM it would have been a wipe.

But, I do still think ast does need a buff for nocturnal sect. I was talking to a friend about CO in noct sect, and his idea was that it should increase potency. Of both cards and shields.

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I litterraly LoL'd. 1st If your gonna wipe on Nevereap I don't know what to say, I can literraly do the dungeon in my sleep. 2nd. How would you even wipe on White Mage???? You have Benediction, Tetragrammaton, Prescense of Mind, DIVINE SEAL+REGEN, Asylum, Cure II, Cure III, and Assize. I can stay Cleric Stance 95% of the dungeon with a Warrior in Dilverance and still have no issue. Sorry to tell you but 4 little instant spells (that you also still have to wait or the GCD) and healing another person for half of your heals probably wasn't going to be a wipe anyway. There's litterally nothing a AST heals can do better than a WHM or SCH because they have far superior CDs.

Ast was made for pvp guys >_> lol
-Mobile Lightspeed blizzard chain binding ppl = beats holy spam rooting
- aspected benific ( noct ) is so broken in pvp its hilarious i can cast a weaker cure/ 1.4k hp shield every second or so lol as if i was spamming a whm regen on myself
-ewer card, luminous, mana draw = never go oom
- celestial opposition -> retrodegradaton = loool
-lightspeed aoe heal spam as ppl try to interrupt ur casts lol
- lightspeed stella ppl loooooooooooool

Ast in pve tho..
- majority say its alright but it's weaker than whm/ sch.

No point trying to deny it cuz its true. How se will buff it without breaking it will be as hard as ppl clearing t5 in under/ minimum ilvl without echo

Pvp astro is OP! By far the best pvp healer.


But yeah it sucks in pve. Plain and simple. It just steps on too meny jobs toes (sch/whm/brd) but is way worse at everything. Jack of all trades but master of none type deal.

My healer partner and I have been together/in same static for... well since 2.0 first coil progression. I hate him he's a jerk. <3 JK...maybe. We trust eachother and know eachother. That's why I wasn't surprised when he asked me to switch back to SCH from AST. It was going to happen. I felt it. And to be honest, I was glad to switch. We are progressing Alex savage, and while AST is clearly capable, it's simply not as good as SCH+WHM. It's too bad because I LOVE the look of AST. I love their weapon. I love their flashy moves. I love the idea of buffing...

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Originally Posted by Zaresin

Tell that to a lot of progression groups having AST sit out on savage. Seen several PF groups for A1 savage that specifically state no AST.

Right now AST bring nothing to the table except stress to the party. Until that is fixed they will continue to be consigned into the trash bin of Heavensward.

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Considering progression groups have cleared A1 and A2 with an AST, that's a case of the mediocre jumping on a bandwagon.

AST is very capable of doing A1S. I healed through Faust w/ it. Couldn't get further b/c AST dps is too low though, lol. I had to switch back to SCH.

Also, Celestial Opposition works on Lightspeed. I have less MP problems playing the class after the buffs.

The class is still inferior to WHM/SCH, and Selene is better at buffing than the supposed buff class.