Testing 1436 synthesis

Initial Testing
Someone listed 5 dryad saps for 2.5 mil total (which seems rather low...) but I decided to take that opportunity (read, take a hit) to atleast start gathering data about crafting 1436 synths. hopefully these numbers can help the rest of ya'll, as I always am happy to share any info.

My Craftmanship with HQ baked onion soup is 752. Thats the only number pertinent to this since I always start figuring out rotations based on how I"m gonna complete them. I never use rapid because I don't like RNG in a completion step btw. This just a personal thing.



This test afforded me two chances to gather numbers, since both the mat and the final craft have the same difficulty and durability.

First hit, Muscle Memory VS NameBrand:
Muscle Memory (473)
NameBrand (442)

Opening with Muscle Memory is likely a must.

Size of CSII hit with IGII up: 176
Name/Brand Hits after Makers mark:
347, 274, *edit* 3rd is is bigger then CSII, but at my stats, I can finish with CSII instead and save 6 cp.

since I was futzing around, gathering data was my priority over raising quality, so with 6 hits on byregots I got like 26% chance to HQ (I think, I wansn't really paying attention)....
likely, with all NQ mats, the best you can expect consistently may be somewhere between 40-60% to HQ with the right rotation.

I actually should of fraps this because I missed some data. oops.

http://nancydrewpuppymysteries.com/VAULT5/nq.jpg

Also the NQ stats on astral birch ring are WORSE then HQ stats on hallowed chestnut lmao. I guess the main difference is meld caps, but who's gonna perfect meld an NQ. so if you don't HQ, its garbage.

and of course we'll have to do this a crap load of times. this is just awful.
also, this is the first time we don't have a cheaper food craft we can test on. le sigh.


7/26 update, 2nd Attempt, HQ results, but not 100%:
thought I'd just compile my notes in this top thread.
I overmelded my main/offhands to get more craft, trying to get close what I have with food so that I could switch to control food instead. I didnt' quite get close enough so still using craft food, but I should beable to swtich to control food after one more meld.
With 772 craft (after food), I can confirm that the boost was NOT enough to buy me another move by closing early. CZII went up to 182 from the previous 176. At the previous stats, I was 10 points pass the 1436 marks, so likely the below rotation could be used with slighly less. Aeyis posted his data from 749 Craft. with the assumption that brand increases in power relative to how much progress is left, I think 749 is still a safe number for dropping the 3rd brand in favor of csII.

with 772 craft I use this rotation, although I have confirmed this rotation still works with 752 craft:
Muscle
CZ, IQ, SHII (standard opener)
HTx5
MMII
SHII, WNI
CZ <---the messy part, bad spot for it but what can you do?
HTx4 (last one sucks)
GS, INNO, SHI, BB (standard)
IGII
NAME, BRAND x2
CSII x2

managed to HQ the astral birch lumber, and then the ring.
http://nancydrewpuppymysteries.com/V...astralring.jpg
The ring is meldable with 4 cp, 8 control, 9 craft.
Because 8 control takes 2 grade IVs which honestly I would of exploded like 30 trying to overmeld (over two mil), I opted to use the Grade V I saw someone list for way less awhile back.
I got really lucky and only blew up 3 grade III craft and 3 grade 1 control lol. the only forgiving part of this whole process.

7/27
http://nancydrewpuppymysteries.com/V...trallumber.jpg
made a 2nd ring.
I took a screen shot of the numbers to be sure i'm not making any mistakes in my recordings (I got paranoid that I was off when you asked Rath, gettin' old ya know. I even messed up a few times writing this paragraph, screenshot be damned.). Anyway, this time, I did it at 754 craft (my carpenter now has 749 base, and I got 5 from FC buff). This allowed me to use quality food for a some extra oomph. at 754, there was an increase to numbers from 752, so if your asking if every point counts, it kinda does. the number this time were:

473 (muscle memory, static value, will never change)
349 (IGII NAME BRAND)
275 (IGII NAME BRAND)
177 (IGII, CSII)
177 (IGII, CSII)

Also my internet died about 5 seconds after I completed the ring. terrifying.

7/29
HQed the griffen tool belt this morning. I haven't yet tried Raths rotation directly on a 1436, but I see the grace and beauty of it.

My main update today however, is that I"ve been trying a new rotation that I'll be trying on my next 1436 material, and if promising, the craft itself. I thought I'd post it ahead of time since it will be another arduous process to get the mats to trade in again.
As with each patch, its often good to re-examine abilities that are mostly considered dead/useless. Rath brings back WNII in this rotation, a move that almost rivals MMII for dura to cp ratio, but is difficult to move since every step consumes a stack regardless of dura consumption or not. Still, placing two CSII's at the end was a very clever way to consume to SHII-less stacks. It also provides 10 touch opportunities, and is just really solid.

In any case, it has also inspired me to look at one other ability that is often considered dead, and I made a new rotation around it.
I will let you guys know how it fairs once it I get a chance to use it, but in the mean time here it is:

New rotation to test on next synth.
Dethroning Byregot's Blessing AKA Bringing Rumination back from the Dead AKA Quality Through Quantity

This Rotation provides a whopping 14 touch opportunities and use only 420 CP. If your a specialist, you can also get innovation on many of those touches for a hefty bonus. While it does use alot of CP, it relies only on the most efficient of Dura regen, MMII. It goes off the theory that, assuming HQ mats, with enough stacks of IQ, BB overshoots tends to be just shy of 100% or overshoots it completely. On the belt, 7 stacks of of probably landed at ~90% but the eight stacks I had went way over 100%. But from 8 stacks, a few more touches and I would of hit 100% regardless because at that point, each regular touch is pretty big.
This Rotation assumes you have 750 craft, If not, you have to drop the 14th touch and probably settle for 13 touches.
Instead of going for one massive BB hit at the end, this relies on a bunch of smaller hits that add up to a fairly similar effect. I'll write out how this works for me, but it will need adjustment based on who's using it and what there stats are.
This all settles on Rumination, which has oft been ignored in the past because no one had the CP to use MMII twice to get the most benefit out of Rumination, which I now see was designed to let you squeeze the most of of your IQ stacks while allowing to use your CP almost exclusively for recovery, and then providing the necessary CP at the END of the craft to actually finish it.

You can open with Makers or Muscle. Opening with Muscle is more consistent and costs less CP. Opening with Makers buys you an extra step for a FIFTEEN touches. These extra touches
can and often will be more then Byregots will give you, altogether, with an exception to Byregot's landing on good or excellent state (but at that point, its overkill anyway).

Muscle -6
CZ -66
IQ -10
SHII -17
HT +8
HT +8
HT +8
HT +8
HT +8
MMII -152
SHII -17
HT +8
CZ -66
HT +8
HT +8
HT +8
SHII -17
HT +8
HT +8
MMII -152
HT +8
HT +8
HT
Rumination +60 (if at 11 stacks, which you likely will be). You can use this CP to reclaim if you're not happy.
SH -22
IGII -32
Name of Element -15
Brand of Element -6
Brand of Element -6
CSII
CSII

412 CP

-The makers mark rotation is fairly similar, just have things shifted around abit
-If you have Extra CP, And are a specialist, consider using Innovative Touch every so often to get a bonus. It's best after the first set of 5 HTs, as the bonus isn't big on the first 5 touches.
-On good state, consider ToT to possibly buy a BT later, or a PT if you have the CP.
-If you have extra cp, you may also choose to pop innovation in the later touches.

The logic behind this is that by 8 stacks ( 7 successful touches), I had accumulated in 2445 quality from touches and culminating in 3168 quality from byregot's, or 5613 overall The rest of the quality came from HQ mats.

however, going of some basic projections (I'll post solid numbers when I try it for real) (I found that each stack of IQ added around 45 to the next touch. it caps at 11), I can somewhat project the following based on about ~740 control:

7 hits the same 2445 quality
8 hit ~2976
9 hit ~3552
10 hit ~4218 <--11 stacks, static increase from here
11 hit ~4929
12 hit ~5640 <---equavelent to 8 stacks of IQ + BB boosted with GS and Inno.
13 hit ~6351
14 hit ~7062
15 hit (if using makers) ~7773

On average, one can expect to fail 1-3 hits, but this could easily be covered for using PTs or ITs if you have the CP to do it.

7/29 (afternoon) For real test.
I tested this rotation, I even purposely reclaimed and bail so I could test it with both Muscle and Makers.
Between Muscle and Makers, I think this really boils down to a matter of choice. Muscle guarantees that you'll be fine on your progress steps. Makers gives you one extra step, but at the chance of not having enough progress. This almost happened to me, as I failed 2/14 flawless (need 12 for me to finish in the later phase).

With 743 Control, these were my numbers:
Touch 1: +222
Touch 2: +264 (42)
Touch 3: +308 (44)
Touch 4: +353 (45)
Touch 5: +399 (46)
Touch 6: +447 (48)
Touch 7: +495 (48)
Touch 8: +544 (49)
Touch 9: +594 (50)
Touch 10: +646 (52)
Touch 11: +699 (53)
Touch 12: +699 (0) <== my average byregot's attempts end up here.
Touch 13: +699 (0)
Touch 14: +699 (0) <== my best byregot's attempts end up here.

Total increase of 7068. Surprisingly, my estimate from above as actually closer then I expected.
Using this build, I've gotten higher then I have with byregot's. This time I used my extra CP for a few guaranteed touches, but in hindsight next time it would be wiser to try to snake in a few innovations. for instance, I have enough extra CP that I can do two innovations.
this is obviously a rose best case scenario, but allows for total increase of 8811 (guestimate)

From what it appears, if Byregot's blessing is like a dreadnaught war winning unit, rumination is like a zerg rush.

So in summary, the pros and cons of this rotation:

pros:
1. Less CP then most byregots rotations out there.
2. More breathing room. Most byregot rotations give you 8-10 touch opportunities, this gives 13-15.
3. Flexible opening. Switching between Muscle and Makers at preference is really easy to work in.
4. Fewer buffing steps mean more flexibility to decide what to do with good state.
5. Extra CP easily put to good use using inno, basic, or precise touch.
6. Very easy to bail at last minute. Most byregots rotations require you to bail before BB because you won't have the CP after BB. Since Rumination is used right before closes, you can see your final quality and immediately decide whether to complete or bail then.
7. No reliance on ToT to complete.

Cons:
1. needs more testing
2. needs very high stats to effectively use. If your craft isn't high enough, you won't beable to minimize your progress steps, which means you won't really make the best use of rumination's purpose of granting lots of extra units.
3. has no opportunity for explosively large increase that you get when BB lands on good or excellent.

Neutral:
1. in theory, has more or less same average results. but a larger sample size is needed.

Quote:

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Also the NQ stats on astral birch ring are WORSE then HQ stats on hallowed chestnut lmao. I guess the main difference is meld caps, but who's gonna perfect meld an NQ. so if you don't HQ, its garbage.

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That is just sad lol

I've noticed that throughout this expac as I have leveled my gatherers and crafters. The NQ of the tier above (At least for rings, next, wrist, earrings) is not as good as the HQ of the Tier before. This trend I didn't noticed before the 50lvl stuff I had made before, so I'm not sure if this is common.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrolo

That is just sad lol

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yeah for real. atleast I got some hard numbers. I hope it helps people (and those same people share as well). cause we're all collectively being shafted right now.

6 stack IQ is not a very good stack. Those name/brands with or sithout ing2?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cearka

Someone listed 5 dryad saps for 2.5 mil total (which seems rather low...)

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If you were buying mats to craft a robe, it uses 6 times as many scripts mats than that ring (cheapest 2* to make mats wise).

I.e. 2.5mil x 6 = 15mil + the other mats to attempt to make a robe HQ.

That's if you can find people selling them that "low" xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

If you were buying mats to craft a robe, it uses 6 times as many scripts mats than that ring (cheapest 2* to make mats wise).

I.e. 2.5mil x 6 = 15mil + the other mats to attempt to make a robe HQ.

That's if you can find people selling them that "low" xD

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yeah no kidding! I only took the dive cause 2.5 mil was oddly cheap. I don' texpect to see that again any time soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raves

6 stack IQ is not a very good stack. Those name/brands with or sithout ing2?

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yeah, wanted to reserve extra steps/CP incase my math of off somehow I blew the craft entirely, so I wasn't going for the usual 8-11 stacks. the raw numbers were more important in this attempt.
those brands are with ING II, forgot to mention sorry.

If you use all NQ mats, you absolutely must get 11 IQ stacks to have any chance of going over 50% HQ. Once you get the upgrades, HQing these with all NQ mats might become more trivial.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cearka

SNIP

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Sorry to hear about your NQ, but this topic on this page may help.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Materials-Gear

Thanks for taking the hit to bring us this info. lol, goodness, this just keeps getting more and more terrible. I'm not even mad anymore, it's just funny now.

Marker's Mark, CZ, IQ ...... Flawless synth over and over 70% of double inner quiet precise touch on each 'good' finish,

options: PBP or, Ingenuity I + Rapid Synthesis ..... see where this gets you , should be quite far before 10/70 at 720/700

If you get a chance please test IN vs IN2.

try converting the NQ ring after 100% SB, maybe you get a grade 2 materia ^^ (actually i hoped the new stuff would give grade 5, but i guess SE would have mentioned this)

Nah, it'll be a grade V water materia. Please look forward to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XLauncher

Nah, it'll be a grade V water materia. Please look forward to it.

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hahaha I was gonna say that butyou beat me to it lol.


EDIT
you know what? I might just spirit bond it to see what it gives me lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rath

Sorry to hear about your NQ, but this topic on this page may help.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Materials-Gear

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didn't see this one, also very good info. her numbers also vary from mine, due to different stats. This is good cause we can start forming a ceiling of what stats are needed to get things done reasonable.

BTW, thanks for posting your impulsive/impulsive/methodical method of collectibles. its really helped alot. shared that link with my all my buddies. =D

I just finished working out a similar rotation on my own, but one that does not require good state for CP (thats so dangerous). Tested this on 1116 crafts and even though it finished early, using the prior data it will made for an ok test bed.
however, this rotation requires 417 CP. if you have a lot of extra cp, you can throw in a precise over a hasty, It gets slightly mess in middle but I haven't come up with a better option yet.

Muscle
CZ, IQ, SHII (standard opener)
HTx5
MMII
SHII, WNI
CZ <---the messy part, bad spot for it but what can you do?
HTx4 (last one sucks)
GS, INNO, SHI, BB (standard)
IGII
NAME, BRAND x2
CSII x2


This isnt the best rotation I'm sure, but a working one at the very least, and one that feeds a little less into RNG (despite wholy relying on hasty =( )
alternatively, if you wanna rely on good states, you can drop the WNI altogether and throw in PT/BTs.
I played around with Makers mark, but honestly after testing it on 30 1116 synths, fishign for good states seems wholy unreliable and I'm assuming on the 1436's, its even more so unreliable. Basically, in 30 tries, (12 stacks of makers on 1116, supposedly its 15 on 1436), thats 360 times I could of seen a good state. I saw it 5 times. never more then once on one synth. Hoping fore more good states is like hoping yoru 5th slot overmeld will stick first try. It can happen, just not very often. Either I'm wholy unlucky with good states, ore other people are just way to lucky.
You could use a delineation, but then the CP you have to spent on PT then gets spent on the delineation move instead, and of course thats not an option if you don't specialist that particular craft. Delineation only last 7 steps and usually at best procs 3 states, 2 which would have to be tricked anyway to partially make up for the cost of delineation itself.

I"m gonna have to bang my head on this some more. I have 452 CP with food, gotta be a better use for that extra 35 points. gonna try some other stuff on goblin jigs (the difficulty is irrelevant for testing, just the durabiltiy, before someone trolls me on this). unfortuantely, since SE really loves to make crafters squirm, they didn't give us new cross class slots with the level cap increase, so in order to get brand/name on gsm, you gotta give up two things, and all I got to give up is ToT and reclaim =(

If that is progress for name/brand under Ing 2, then I am sad face. Also, am i the only one who does MM and Use all FS up before proceeding? I may use tricks toward the end of the stack to fill back up, ut I can't see risking cp or mm stack on anything without sh2.

I like my startup of MaM + WWYW + CZ and then taking any goods that pop up with TotT while also using every free FS. Usually, I end up with 2 stacks of Whistle down when I'm done, so I have 9 stacks, and so CSII does a crapton of Progress. I use CSII twice or as long as my stacks of Whistle are at 9, without completing the craft and keeping just 1 hit away from finishing it up. This entirely costs me 0 CP at all, since I regained it all with TotT and CZ (sometimes I even regain more than I spent) and only 20 dur to pretty much finish the item. That's on no-star crafts, though. For 2stars, most likely there's better rotation... for now at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrolo

That is just sad lol

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It's not sad at all, the HQ system is designed to be more rewarding to encourage people to HQ rather than just get NQ and already be better than HQ of previous tier.

It tells players to not rush to make the next tier til they can comfortable HQ it otherwise they are just wasting resources because they can just as easily make a better version with materials that are more plentiful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Airget

It's not sad at all, the HQ system is designed to be more rewarding to encourage people to HQ rather than just get NQ and already be better than HQ of previous tier.

It tells players to not rush to make the next tier til they can comfortable HQ it otherwise they are just wasting resources because they can just as easily make a better version with materials that are more plentiful.

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Simply crafting an item at all already means you earned the better stats with the current system. Not to rush? How does one rush when the materials are limited on a weekly basis?

I'm not sure if you understand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Airget

easily make a better version with materials that are more plentiful.

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In order to be able to craft 2* you already need fully melded equipment.
In addition, it requires an extraordinary amount of effort to produce a single NQ item right now.
It seems downright silly that a NQ will result in an item you have no use for at all, as is the case with all but a single slot of 2* equipment.


Which I agree, is pretty sad.

Well, using the above rotation, I managed to get 8 stacks and 82% to HQ. This was after HQing the astral birch lumber. This time took far longer cause I catually used my own token and farmed my own green oilds and a friend gave me 10 void nuts. T-T
will post screen shots after melding though. this piece appears to not need alot of high materia to cap.

edit:
I"m gonna add any notes I have to top post from now on.

Did you use your exact rotation above and still have enough progress?

yes. it has 5 completion steps (muscle memory, then name+brand+brand, and IGII+CSII+CSII), for a total of 1446/1436. This requires a very high craftmanship to pull off, as anything short of around 750 means you won't complete. If you have excess CP, you also have some flexibility if a good state pops.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cearka

yes. it has 5 completion steps (muscle memory, then name+brand+brand, and IGII+CSII+CSII), for a total of 1446/1436. This requires a very high craftmanship to pull off, as anything short of around 750 means you won't complete. If you have excess CP, you also have some flexibility if a good state pops.

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Can you check out the 60 2 star rotation OP. His name/brand data conflicts with yours and I am wondering if you are missing your numbers from name/brand 3 and actually used your number from the 4th hit by mistake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rath

Can you check out the 60 2 star rotation OP. His name/brand data conflicts with yours and I am wondering if you are missing your numbers from name/brand 3 and actually used your number from the 4th hit by mistake.

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Seems that way, yes.


My data: 749 Craftmanship
12x Flawless synthesis 480 progress

[Ingen II finisher]
1th Brand: 343
2th Brand: 273
3th Brand: 217
CF II: 176

Thanks for your test info Aeyis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Seems that way, yes.


My data: 749 Craftmanship
12x Flawless synthesis 480 progress

[Ingen II finisher]
1th Brand: 343
2th Brand: 273
3th Brand: 217
CF II: 176

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the 3rd hit was bigger then CSII, I checked again, but thats irrelevant since you don't need the 3rd brand to complete. you can use CSII instead and still save 6 cp.

it would appear between 749 and 752 you get 4 points different on the brand 1, 3 points different on brand 2, no difference on CSII.

using Aeyis's numbers, that 3rd brand is also unnecessary. if he were to drop the 3rd brand in favor of CSII, he'd still get 1448/1436, meaning still completion with 6 cp saved. Even if he opened iwth muscle memory, that still makes for 1441/1436. basically that 3rd brand is causing him to overshoot and cost 6 extra cp, which may or may not beable to contribute to something else.

so there isn't a descrepency so much as simple change in numbers from only 3 points of craft. I would go as far to say now, seeing aeyis's numbers, that 749 is now the BOTTOM craft you can have to complete with 2x brand 2x csII vs 3x brand 1x csII

EDIT
actually that descrepency might not be from those 3 points of craft now that i think about it. The descrepency comes from the fact that brand is affected by remainign progress. Aeyis does his brand at 480. I do mine at 473. This, AND/OR the difference in craft, could account for the 4 point difference. in my original test, I tried doing a brand at 0 progress, and the difference was massively different (442), so brand is obviously really sensitive to its starting point.

added a screenshot of the actual numbers to top post.

I posted a new rotation in my OP that I would like some other uber crafters currently active on the forums to give thoughts on (rath, jade, aeyis, luminus, etc). I haven't tested it on a 1436 yet, but I will. my tests on other 70 dura just to see the validity of it is very promising right now.

Your rotation looks solid. It only uses 412 cp though. It really depends on how much quality you actually get.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cearka

hahaha I was gonna say that butyou beat me to it lol.


EDIT
you know what? I might just spirit bond it to see what it gives me lol.

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Grade V materia can only be obtained via the goblin lottery atm. Grade V's were to be properly added in a later patch (probably 3.1).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darra

Grade V materia can only be obtained via the goblin lottery atm. Grade V's were to be properly added in a later patch (probably 3.1).

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maybe I'll wait to convert it til that later patch then. not like I can. I've done a ton crafts with it and its gone up like 2% lol.


I updated OP with actual numbers from the Rumination test.

I did spiritbond an astral birch ring and conversion resulted in a grade IV craftsmans cunning materia.
Like you i found that crafting increased spiritbonding extremely slowly, and only level 60 one and two star recipes seemed to increase it at all.
However the ring is usable by combat classes, and I found that with two melds on the ring, a complete run of Neverreap increased SB by 14% and Fractal continuum by 20%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peka

I did spiritbond an astral birch ring and conversion resulted in a grade IV craftsmans cunning materia.
Like you i found that crafting increased spiritbonding extremely slowly, and only level 60 one and two star recipes seemed to increase it at all.
However the ring is usable by combat classes, and I found that with two melds on the ring, a complete run of Neverreap increased SB by 14% and Fractal continuum by 20%

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I'll have to do that! thanks for the tip. I'm may sb it and then wait for a lter patch to see if they add gV materia