[Paladin] Recommendations & Improvements

[i. Introduction]

Paladins, as they currently stand in 3.0, are a very solid tanking class. They've maintained their sturdiness, gained some new damage abilities to add variety to their rotation, and acquired significantly more party utility though Clemency and Divine Veil. The new Paladin additions solved most of my major complaints with the class from before (dull rotation without much else to do beyond it), and I enjoy playing it a lot more than I did back in 2.X.

What's missing, then? If you ask people who've been playing Paladin for a while, especially in the new expansion, it's "complexity". By "complexity," I mean a sense of constant decision making, either as a result of new information or numerous variables that have to be considered. It's a fair complaint: the optimal Paladin rotation is Halone -> Goring -> Royal Authority, repeated infinitely (or until you run out of TP). Clemency adds a bit of decision making into the game by providing you with opportunities to save healers some mana and acting as a pseudo-cooldown while forcing you to give up your current combo chain. However, there's still a paucity of complexity as far as the Paladin tanking game goes.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, to a certain extent. The developers have implied that Paladins are meant to be a relatively simple plug-and-play class. The comparison I like to use is the Heavy from Team Fortress 2: a character that packs a lot of innate power, but which is very simple for someone brand new to the game to pick up and do well on. This is reflected in their design, especially in 2.X, where the rotation was kept to a single combo alongside a bunch of bluntly effective defensive cooldowns.

My proposal is to therefore add non-critical complexity to the Paladin's decision making. "Non-critical" means that it's not something that's required to make the class perform its role well in the hands of a novice player. Rather, it's an added element that improves the performance of the class for people who are already able to capably handle playing Paladin without creating a massive gulf between them and novice players.

[ii. Key Proposal: Riposte]

The core change I want to propose is the addition of a short-duration buff called Riposte. Riposte lasts until either its duration expires (something around 6 seconds), or until a spell or weapon skill is successfully executed. The effect of Riposte is two-fold:

• Casting speed is increased by 20%.
• Additional effects are applied to certain actions.

The primary way to gain Riposte is through Shield Swipe. The new Shield Swipe description would be along the lines of:

Shield Swipe

• Cast Time: Instant (GCD)
• Cooldown: 10s
• Delivers an attack with a potency of 210. Can only be used immediately after blocking an attack.
• Additional Effect: Riposte for 6s.
• Additional Effect: Increased enmity.

Shield Swipe, as it currently stands, is a DPS loss, and is only really useful for grabbing additional single-target enmity in certain circumstances. It's a weird skill that doesn't seem to fit in at all with the Paladin's current rotation. It feels more like I'm shoehorning it in (because it's lit up), rather than cautiously considering its use. Repurposing it to give it some use seems logical.

The second reason is also an aesthetic consideration. Part of the description of the Gladiator class is:

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"Tracing their roots to the Coliseum, where the roar of the crowd reigns supreme, these melee combatants have learned to seamlessly flow between attack and defense in a dance that delights the eye."

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This would work well with a revamped Shield Swipe. Shield Swipe would be used either before the final part of a combo, or in preparation before casting Clemency or Stoneskin. The cooldown period is intended to provide some additional thought to using it, since you won't be able to apply the Riposte effect to every spell or combo that you perform.

The other way of obtaining Riposte would be through Shield Bash. Shield Bash is another weird skill: still on the GCD and still burdened with a very high TP cost, it's strictly inferior to the stun options of Warriors and Dark Knights, especially in terms of interruption capability. There's only really been two cases where Shield Bash chain-stunning has held a practical advantage over Heavy Swing: Twintania and Leviathan (and I think the designers agree that building fights to specifically require chain stuns isn't good design).

My proposal for a revamped Shield Bash would be:

Shield Bash

• Cast Time: Instant (Off-GCD)
• Cooldown: 25s
• Stun for 3s (6s with Enhanced Shield Bash).
• Additional Effect: Riposte for 6s.

Paladin already gets two off-GCD damage-dealing skills, so I don't think it's strictly necessary for Shield Bash to have any potency applied to it. Shield Bash instead provides Paladins with a universally applicable interrupt and with a way of obtaining Riposte that isn't dependent on Shield Swipe, either as part of their rotation or in case of an emergency (e.g. when needing to get a Clemency out immediately).

The final change would be for Sheltron: if the Sheltron buff expires without being used, then Shield Swipe is activated as though an attack were blocked. This grants off-tanks a method of gaining Shield Swipe more regularly than with Shield Bash alone, though still not to the same extent that a main tank will be able to use Shield Swipe.

[iii. Secondary Proposal: Affected Actions]

As stated above, Riposte would provide an additional effect to certain weapon skills, as well as reducing the cast time of spells. For Clemency and Stoneskin, this would reduce the casting time to 2.40s, allowing both to applied more quickly in situations where it would be warranted (e.g. during a tank buster or if an emergency heal is needed).

Riposte would also provide additional effects to certain weapon skills and actions. My proposed list for this:

• Rage of Halone: Increase the duration of the Strength Reduction effect to 24/26 seconds. Increasing the duration provides more time for using Royal Authority to increase DPS, or assists the Paladin in keeping the debuff on multiple targets.
  
• Goring Blade: Provide a mild Refresh effect over a certain duration, with the potency being dependent on a percentage of the total damage inflicted by the Goring Blade DoT effect. This would provide a way for off-tanks (or main tanks who can find opportunities to move to Sword Oath) to recover mana more quickly for Flash or Clemency/Stoneskin.
  
• Royal Authority: Provides a mild TP Refresh effect over a certain duration. I'm of the opinion that non-Warrior tanks shouldn't really be so TP starved over long fights. This provides a method for Paladins to regain TP when necessary, though it requires some forethought as to when it would be best to apply the TP Refresh.
  
• Flash: Provides a low-potency DoT effect to affected targets. The intention here is to not make Paladins competitive with Warriors for AoE damage, but to provide them a bit more "oomph" in AoE situations that they're otherwise missing.

[iv. Conclusion]

As stated in the Introduction, the intention here is to provide a level of complexity that, while beneficial, isn't strictly necessary for people brand new to the class. The benefits from Riposte are mostly utility benefits and minor DPS benefits: more TP, more MP, faster casts, extra AoE damage, and the potential to squeeze out a bit more single-target damage through more frequent use of Royal Authority over Rage of Halone. I think that a change along these lines would help to improve the complexity of the Paladin playstyle for veterans, while still leaving the class accessible for brand new players.

Sorry that you had to read all of these words; please enjoy this video as a reward: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrmEOgELheE

One of my favorite parts of PLD is that their stun is on GCD, it sets them apart and shouldn't be changed imo. You can rotate it through an enemy group and basically get a 6 second invincible.

First off. Lets look at a definition. Riposte: a quick return thrust following a parry.

That being said.

Shield Swipe. While not a super purpose. It serves one. It is a way to keep generating a fair amount of threat and using less tp. Not every ability needs to be on a rotation.
Shield Bash. There is a reason we don't have a carbon copy of warriors. It is boring. Having no cd on our stun is not a weakness it is a strength. It gives us a utility others don't have. Like the adds on A3.
RoH change, not needed. You can RoH, GB, and RA, rotate through those 3 and the timers line up.
GB change, not needed. You start by arguing for more dps yet want to push for more mp to heal. conflicting opinions.
RA change. Not needed. We dont have tp issues, we just have paladins not using their mp too.
Flash. Not needed. Eventually we may get to a point, giggle, that we want to cc. Flash from the start served the purpose of letting us aoe threat int he middle of cced mobs. Valuable utility.


You are proposing changes to fix that which isn't broken. You are doing it in a new thread because the general gist of the existing thread proposing changes, 5 down at the time of writing this, is Paladins are super and changes aren't needed.

While i do acknowledge the lack of aoe damage PLDs have, i'm quite sure SE will give them aoe abilities in upcoming expansions. I've waited for clemency to become a reality, i would wait for what PLDs in 4.0 will have.

Only changes that I really want are: Increase the enmity multiplier of RoH to 6x, and extend the str debuff to 24 sec. Maybe a slight change to the additional effect to shield swipe. Most bosses are immune to it so the effect is largely pointless. Also, shield bash and the oaths shouldn't interrupt combos. I don't mind if pld is "simple" since if I ever wanted something more complex, I can switch to war or drk.

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Originally Posted by Kelg

One of my favorite parts of PLD is that their stun is on GCD, it sets them apart and shouldn't be changed imo. You can rotate it through an enemy group and basically get a 6 second invincible.

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Because it's on the GCD, by the time you stun the 3rd target, the 1st has recovered, not to mention in a group the WHM probably has also casted Holy, and there are some mobs that just can't be stunned. Bash is good for emergency mitigation when you need that extra half-second for the heal to go off. Beyond that, it's far from being invincible.

Not bad, at least you didn't ask for Shield Swipe to be off the GCD. That's a huge no-no to me, as it's our best way of maintaining TP. To give you an idea. No Shield Swipes at all, and you run out of TP in 3 minutes. 1 Shield Swipe per 3 hit combo, and you will run out of TP in 5 minutes and 30 seconds. 2 Shield Swipes per 3 hit combo, and you won't run out of TP until about 10 minutes. And 3 Shield Swipes per rotation (Simply unlikely to happen except with Bulwark) and your TP will last you 25 minutes. This is assuming you don't have any help from a TP buffing class. My suggested changes for Shield Swipe is remove the pacification, increase the potency, and remove the TP cost all together.

Shield Bash, no, bad, horrible. We currently have THE best single target CC ability in the game. You just ruined it.

Now, your effects for Riposte are really things that aren't necessary if you're actually a competent Paladin, or things that really just need to be different changes to other skills. TP recovery? We already have Shield Swipe for physical battles to preserve our TP, and we already have Flash for when Shield Swipe is unavailable to maintain enmity and recovery a small amount of TP. For AOE damage, there needs to be more focus on Circle of Scorn, not flash. A reduction in the CD to match the duration would suffice, as well as increase AOE enmity slightly as well as single target damage and single target enmity since this skill has applications for both being oGCD.

Currently though, Paladins do not have resource management issues. If a Paladin does, then the only advice for them is "git gud".

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

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Currently though, Paladins do not have resource management issues. If a Paladin does, then the only advice for them is "git gud".

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This is not entirely true (but most of the tim eit is)
I was MT in floor 4 just a few hours ago and because of the Magic dmg of the Boss shield swipe does not happen at all so i had some Trouble there, luckily stoneskin and clemenz are there for us Paladins^^

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Originally Posted by Tam_Hawkins

This is not entirely true (but most of the tim eit is)
I was MT in floor 4 just a few hours ago and because of the Magic dmg of the Boss shield swipe does not happen at all so i had some Trouble there, luckily stoneskin and clemenz are there for us Paladins^^

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I actually wonder how many pld's time stoneskin spams for the discords on that one or if I'm the only one.

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Originally Posted by Tam_Hawkins

This is not entirely true (but most of the tim eit is)
I was MT in floor 4 just a few hours ago and because of the Magic dmg of the Boss shield swipe does not happen at all so i had some Trouble there, luckily stoneskin and clemenz are there for us Paladins^^

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Exactly. You have other skills you can use to trigger a global and recover some TP. It may not be damage specifically, but being able to stoneskin yourself for the next hit, or healing someone. I prefer Stoneskin, because it's less MP, and about equivalent to the self healing that I would get if I clemented another player.

There are really only a couple changes to PLD that I want.

Take Shield Swipe off the GCD, reduce the potency and TP cost accordingly, give it a longer CD, and increase the activation window slightly. This change is long overdue and would make PLD a much more engaging job to play while helping their MT DPS and enmity generation. It also makes it significantly less lame that the final class ability you get isn't something you never use.

Take Sword and Shield Oath off the GCD. Retain or even increase the MP cost and give it a longer recast (so that if you swap, you can't swap back for a while). Stance dancing should be a more dynamic decision and fluid transition. As is, it's just poorly designed because it's horribly clunky and unintuitive. You can drop Shield Oath oGCD to negate the damage penalty and not break your combos but you can't activate Sword Oath without using a GCD and breaking your combos. Why add that layer of cumbersomeness? It's just plain stupid. People who know what they are doing are already just cancelling Shield Oath when they need a mid-combo DPS boost and activating Sword Oath when it fits in the rotation. Just change it already. I've actually given a lot of thought to switching mains to WAR because of how much better their stance mechanics are.

These are the only changes PLD really needs.

I'd like to see Tempered Will changed. It's supposed to be prevent knock-back and draw-in effects and yet it often doesn't do anything at all. I tried using it during the Bismarck fight and I ended up getting knocked off the island...

So in short? I'd like to see it do what it says on the tin: prevent a character from being moved at all by any attack for the duration of the ability. Increase the recharge time to balance it if need be.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

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oGCD abilities don't have costs, they have cooldowns. Don't see that changing.

Edit: I said this, then I started leveling Dark that does have MP costs on its oGCD abilities. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'd like to see Tempered Will changed. It's supposed to be prevent knock-back and draw-in effects and yet it often doesn't do anything at all. I tried using it during the Bismarck fight and I ended up getting knocked off the island...

So in short? I'd like to see it do what it says on the tin: prevent a character from being moved at all by any attack for the duration of the ability. Increase the recharge time to balance it if need be.

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It works. The issue you are having is timing. Often the casts are too short and the animation too long for you to really get it off in time. It is priceless in A3.

Add a 20-40% MDEF increase for the duration of the Sheltron buff.. as like a Shell from FFXI /shrug

Shield Oath / Sword Oath could be oGCD, and be categorized as Abilities (like Defiance) instead of Spells (like Grit).

Have been asking for that second one for a long time - there must be something SE doesn't like about it.

And I wonder what the situation is with Protect atm - if they are going to tinker with it since they pretty much nerfed WHM pro-protect buffed cross-class Protect for SCH/AST/PLD (was only PDEF in 2.x when x-classed)

I've always thought it'd be nice if cross-class tect somehow could play a part in a party composition.. Like have the 2nd healer's Protect and the PLD's 3rd Protect stack to make the buff marginally stronger