The cause of friction between roles

Lately I've been bouncing around the roles(Tank,DPS, and Healer),and I've noticed something. Time, as we know, is a personal perception. What may seem like a short, but necessary, trip to the bank may seem like an eternity to a kid, for example. My point is, each role has its own "time speed". IE what seems like a quick jaunt in one role seems like an eternity in another. Here are my observations:

DPS: Responsibility level=low. Their job is to dump out damage, So the average thought is "Am I hitting these rotations optimally?" or "Woo guys! Did you see that crit? DID YOU SEE MAH CRIT?!". Because DPSs deal the most damage(because its in the name) they notice a tangible return on the enemy health bar. Killing stuff is how a dungeon progresses, so they get a real sense of pushing the run forward. Combined with fact that they have a longer queue time, means runs go quick for a dps. "Man, this run went by quick!"
DPSs can have a laid back attitude because of this.

Tank: Responsibility= medium. Tanks purpose is to take the damage meant for the group. Because they don't dish out the highest damage(By design), they can't significantly contribute to the killing of stuff like a DPS can, which means they can't control the progression speed directly. They just act as meat sponges. The "action" in tanking is keeping control of aggro. If a tank fails at this, he could cause a wipe, or regain control, depending on player skill. They can't reliably self sustain(relies on CDs) and so must trust the healer to be on ball. This can make runs feel like they last forever. "DPS! What are you doing!?, this run is taking to long! Healer CS once in a while sheesh!" This, combined with short re queue times, can lead to short temperedness and impatience. A lot of Tanks become total jerks because of this.

Healer: Responsibility= high. Healers keep the group going. They sustain the party through a fight. But they can also contribute to DPS. Knowing when to do either is an import part of the job. They have sustain the party AND deal with fight mechanics. A good healer must be able to recover from their F-ups AND someone else's F-ups. A bad healer will easily wipe the whole group and therefore spoil everyone else's run. If a healer is in a good group(all roles on the ball) the runs can get slow and boring (like a Tank) but if a group is bad... "Aghhhhhhh!!! When will this nightmare fight end!?" Healers are either getting yelled at, OR yelling at people who screw up. "Stay out of the Fking AoE!""Tank, get this guy off me!" Too slow runs or not slow enough runs.

Responsibility =/= difficulty and is just a relative "blame" scale.

I hope you're editing your first post to add information instead of making a new one.
You did. No worries here.

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Originally Posted by nssixn6

DPS: Responsibility level=low.

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Maybe, but DPS often have the most complex rotations and the most difficulty keeping their stated role working to its highest. Tanks barely need to deal with mechanics and both their aggro and DPS rotations tend to be a bit easier--although they require more memorization (knowing when to pop into deliverance/sword oath/turn off grit, for instance). While a DPS may have low responsibility it's not low complexity, and therefore not low stress if they're actually doing their job well.

I get the most tired/stressed playing monk (the only DPS I really like/play).

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Tank: they can't significantly contribute to the killing of stuff like a DPS can

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Have you played a tank post 50? On the second boss of Sohm Al I can out DPS most actual DPS classes on the second boss because I can stay in deliverance most of the time (as he'll never actually attack other than the one kind of weak AoE and digestion if you just keep hitting him plus the fight is short enough that fell cleave burst leaves a lasting impact on DPS). On the last boss I can attack a different wing than both DPS and double fell cleave it to break it before the DPS wing goes. Those are just easy examples.

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A lot of Tanks become total jerks because of this.

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Nah. They turn into jerks for the same reason anyone else does: A combination of entitlement and trying to hide their own mistakes by yelling at other people. 'I'm the tank, I get instant queues, and if you kick me you might as well just disband because it'll probably take 20 minutes to find a replacement' combined with 'I bet if I just start yelling at the healer first, no one will notice I didn't use any cooldowns back there/if I pretend like the DPS were attacking the wrong targets I can act like it's not my aggro that's shitty'.

I don't think I've ever seen a tank who was good at his job act like a (total) dick. It might happen sometimes, but I've not seen it. Goes for all classes really. It's pretty rare to get a jerk who's also good. Closest I saw was one DPS, and even he stuck around in a learning party for awhile and was constructive. Just. . . very brusque.

As for stress levels? I'm least stressed when tanking. If I want to I can go balls to the wall max deeps stance dancing murder all the things, but if I don't want to do that no one cares as long as I'm using CDs and stuff. Doing my basic job as a tank, I can just. . . stop playing and chat for a bit near the end of pulls when there's not much left alive and my aggro is established enough that DPS can't pull off me, anyway. I very rarely do that (and wouldn't in any kind of difficult content), but the fact I COULD makes the entire job just. . . feel really laid back. Sure if I fuck up we wipe, but it's not like they're gonna kick me (and if they do I can get into another run immediately), and if they're jerks I can just leave and they're screwed. So the responsibility comes with a lot of power that makes up for it and makes it. . . much less stressful.

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Healer: Responsibility= high.

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I wouldn't really put healers as higher than tank on responsibility. If EITHER of them fuck up the group wipes. Healing is more complex than tanking with the same degree of responsibility, but it's less complex than DPSing. I tend to be similarly stressed as WHM as I am as Monk, but. . . a little less so. As long as everyone stays alive and I can DPS at all I feel like I'm doing pretty good. I don't feel the same need to wring every last ounce out of it (though I do enjoy the holy bombing and DPS a lot just 'cause it's boring otherwise), but the responsibility does add some stress.

Also, if the healer is yelling at people, again, they're usually doing it to cover their own mistakes. Yell at that person for getting in AoEs instead of moving out of them myself/taking any responsibility.

I think the jerk = bad player thing is probably because of how good players deal with mistakes on the part of their team members. A good player may see someone standing in AoE unnecessarily and might ask them to watch out for it in the future, but the good player is less focused on how much that guy screwed up, and instead on how they might have been able to save the run in spite of that guy's screw up. The good player always tries to find how they could have fixed it. What they could have done to have maybe made things a little smoother.

A good DPS doesn't blame another DPS with low damage for failing to meet DPS checks. They might mention to the raid leader that this person is low or ask that person if they want help with rotations, but they're also going to be thinking 'Could I have done more damage? Maybe if I had timed that tornado kick better, maybe if I slowed DPS on that add so it was around to keep GL3 up just a little longer for the burn phase, maybe I can eke out a little more with a different opener, did I make a mistake somewhere?' The good DPS may not want to carry poor DPS but they want to be able to do as much damage as possible--and being able to carry a bad DPS might just be a result of that.

The good tank when he dies doesn't yell at the healer for not being there. The good tank goes, 'well, I could have maybe lived if I had thrown out holmgang a little sooner, or if I had berserked into a second wind, or if I had--' The good tank shares responsibility.

That attitude is not only more pleasant but pushes for constant improvement from the player--which is, again, probably why when you meet toxic players, they tend to also be bad players. Because toxic players don't think about how THEY can improve, only about how everyone else can--even if everyone else was fine. It couldn't possibly be anything the toxic player did wrong. Has to have been those OTHER guys.

But, I mean, that's just my experiences. On all counts.

Your mileage may vary and all that, and you may get super stressed playing tank and feel totally relaxed playing DPS and that's cool. Maybe you're okay with healers yelling at you, which, I mean if you're into that kinda thing, well, you do you.

I'm just trying to toss out another perspective. Particularly on the 'DPS is easy faceroll' thing people think. . . which is probably why there's a lot of really subpar DPS around in every MMO. It's not really the easiest role, but when people keep saying it is, welp. That's where the less skilled players go.

This was a fun read but uhhhh TANK IS THE ONE TRUE MASTER ROLE!!!!!!!

Maybe it's just me but I play all three - and I don't feel that any one is more important than the other. All three have there place within each fight that is their responsibility. DPS do damage and deal with mechanics within the fight that tanks don't really need to worry about. Tanks keep hate, make sure others are taking as little damage as possible, and if they know their job well, also put out decent damage. Healers make sure that people stay healed, take of ailments and DPS if they can and feel comfortable with the way things are going.

If you loose one of those parts, it doesn't mean the fight is necessarily over - but it will make the fight significantly harder. I've been in fight's where we lost the healer, tank and DPS and still managed to successfully complete the fight. There have been times I have seen, or people have talked about where they loose a tank or healer and still keep going in the dungeon without it until a rep comes. I've done a lot of dungeons 3 man because of DC's etc...

It is my belief that the cause of friction between roles has nothing to do with the roles itself, it's more so a personality conflict. We have to remember that there is a real person behind that character, and not every type of personality is going to get along all the time. It doesn't help that some people within this game just treat others like dirt.

There are players who want it their way or no way. There are players who are new but not willing to listen to advice from those who can honestly help them. There are players who won't even talk to someone or let them in a fight unless they meet their standards. There are players who will kick someone out of a party because they made one mistake, yet they are making mistakes left and right. There are players who won't speak up and even say a hello when they enter a party, much less try and help people. But there are also kind, helpful and patient players as well. It's all over the board.

And I didn't mention any specific roles because this happens on all roles in the game, it's more depending on the person behind that role, not the role itself. I have been in dungeons with the nicest DPS, Healers and Tanks, and I have met just awful ones as well - and I'm not talking play style, I'm talking personality. I personally don't like to be mean, I always try to help people - I don't like giving up and I really dislike kicking people out of parties. I try to just go with the flow of whats going on, and answer questions if they are raised - but not everyone does that.

So I don't think the friction in this game is necessarily about roles and how people view them in importance, but more so about how we treat one another in this game. So as I said - this is my opinion and I already try to treat people kindly because I know the type of people they might have had to deal with. But I honestly believe if people treated one another with a bit more kindness and understanding it would be better. But I'm a realist and I know that's not going to happen - so there will always be friction in parties - unless players choose to run with friends.

Everyone always acts like DPS can goof off until a trial slaps a DPS check on them, and that's when things suddenly fall apart. Heck, even fighting Ultros on this very day will still have wipe after wipe because DPS players still don't seem to know what to do when they turn into an imp.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

They turn into jerks for the same reason anyone else does: A combination of entitlement and trying to hide their own mistakes by yelling at other people.

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This is the answer for friction among the three. Each role has the SAME lvl of responsibility just in a different way. You cannot complete any group related part of the game without all 3. This is why the term "HOLY TRINITY" exists. They all work with one another to accomplish each individual said role. Its really not that hard to see that. I don't get why people try to boil it down to "said role is more important". There's no superior role that's it, accept it.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Everyone always acts like DPS can goof off until a trial slaps a DPS check on them, and that's when things suddenly fall apart. Heck, even fighting Ultros on this very day will still have wipe after wipe because DPS players still don't seem to know what to do when they turn into an imp.

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Its not always about just one role, as others have mentioned it takes teamwork. all three jobs need to be able to work together and get the content cleared. More often then not people want to tend to jump down other throats or blame each other instead of focusing on teamwork and correcting the issue. instead of just blaming the DPS for example, why not get their side of the story as to whats going on? It could very well end up being that maybe the positioning on Ultros was off so they got blown off stage before they can get the stacks they needed to.

What we're really talking about here is Flow State and Immersion in the game. And honestly, FFXIV breaks it all the time whenever it asks for you to roll loot or give a player commendation. Deaths and trolling complaints also cause it, although acting like a bigshot pro is also a sort of flow.

Anyway, the trick to enjoying the class (and making time fly by) is to understand how that class and role fits in to the party composition. Jerks will always be jerks, whether they're DPS, tanks, or healers; and everyone will always have some sort of pet peeve that throws them off. Some players learn to ignore it or incorporate it (loot rolls for me), and others just can't.

Its true the holy trinity makes roles all equal. But in reality the amount of responsibility is diffuesed among the roles. There are 2 tanks, 2 healers, ( 4 dps, sometimes 5 if the party is doing solo tank or heal ) * sometimes they do solo heal and tank = a whopping 6 dps.
So with that said if a healer dies its over ( unless u have a smn who can rez ). In farm parties ppl will want to do single tank/ heals most of the time to maximize dps. But ofc not all dps player skill are equal. Tanks can die and still have the run intact, rare but possible.
More dps = less responsibility on pushing out high dps( titan ex farms/ levi ex farms are good examples of dps gooding around despite being old stuff )

The equality really only applies to progression groups imo cuz EVERYONE needs to pull their weight or its not happening.
Truth hurts sometimes but this is how ppl made it to be with the solo tank/ heals strats.

As a tank, I agree with the OP. Healing in FF14 is crazily stressful! All my commendations goes to healers.

In raid content, all the three roles are equally important. The responsability lies heavy on all of them:

1) Tank: You can't control the received damage or can't get adds on time. Fail at mechanic checks and/or getting debuff/dying in the process. Can't tank any longer. The boss turns back and starts eating the DPS and healers. WIPE.
2) Healer: Can't heal people on time, don't pre-emptive healing. Fail at mechanic checks and/or getting debuff/dying in the process. Can't heal any longer. People start dying. WIPE.
3) DPS: Your DPS output is really low and your rotation is not efficient. Fail at mechanic checks and/or getting debuff/dying in the process. Can't add extra DPS. The enrage happens and everybody in the raid wipes.

I think your post is the cause of friction.

There's no 'responsibility level' only responsibility.

If any one role fails in their job, then the effects are felt all over. So it sucks when you are doing your job and then something goes wrong out of your control.

For DPS, it's ending the fight quickly. Because of combat regen, a fight with a near invulnerable boss will end in a wipe without DPS. The healer would run out of MP. The healer depends on the DPS. Without a tank, the DPS would stomped by the higher damage output of bosses. The DPS rely on the tank. Without the healer, the Tank would probably die if he doesn't have a way of healing after he uses up all his damage mitigation. The tank depends on the healer.

The reverse of that cycle is true as well. The DPS depend on the healer because the healer is keeping their main form of damage mitigation (The tank) alive. The tank depends on the DPS to make the fight quick so that the healer has time to rest. The healer depends on the tank to prevent from getting punted by the boss just as much as the DPS.

HOWEVER imparting a belief that anyone role is more important than the other or has any more of an important job than the other prompts two things: One, that the dung system is flawed in some way to believe that without one of these roles, things will continue. (DPS checks are the answer how DPS become a necessity.)

Two, it manifests the Im better than you attitude. Which is not how cooperation is established.

So let's establish this really quick. Tanks are frustrated because they have the job that IMMEDIATELY can see failure and cause a wipe. In Annoy The Void, adds come so quickly and pop AoE's that if they aren't taken care of, the tank can very quickly run out of damage mitigation (making it look as if he used none at all) and resources to control aggro. Tanks also have a fairly thankless job because despite being a valuable glue to the picture, a lot of people beget that the healer does more work, such as your post projects. So combined, you are given a person who feels under appreciated who has the most to 'lose' when he/she gets blamed for something going wrong.

Healers don't have the harder job because healing in and of itself is a lot easier to manage mentally. You are given a pretty well layed out hud that helps you quickly get to the problems and take care of them. A healer who has to deal with a tank not using CDs gets blamed even if they are performing well at their job. So while it has a similar role in how immediate the failure can be seen, the healer at least has the stigma that he/she is the heart of the party and gets a lot of gratitude for it. (People comm healers no matter how bad they are. I got a good majority of mine just leveling my bottom line.)

DPS have a thankless job, but their failures are not immediately evident unless someone is looking for it. If a DPS doesn't use his buff or debuff on an enemy, big whoop, the fight takes a little longer and, as long as there's no wipe, it's widely overlooked by anyone except elitists. They don't often get comms unless they perform exceptionally well (Like a lancer who regains aggro if the tank dies and carries the group through the rest of the pull or an arcanist who heals if something happens to the healer.) The only exception to this is in FF14 where the DPS checks keep them in line. If they fail this, the wipe is felt pretty heavily and people start nit picking every little detail about the rotations and specific classes (ie MCH and BRDs getting so much crap lately.)

The cause of friction is the misconception that any one role is more important. It's important that blame is never cast, but advice to be given. It's the difference between a boss and a leader. And people hate bosses. (That's why we slay them. Who's ever heard of going into a dungeon to slay the leader, that's silly.)

This is what I hate about the ubiquitous MMO group model.

If one person screws up, the entire group could end up paying for it. Punishing the whole group for the failure of a few.

It creates a significant amount of stress and frequently "toxicity". Forcing players to play only with others that meet their "standards".

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

This was a fun read but uhhhh TANK IS THE ONE TRUE MASTER ROLE!!!!!!!

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UHHHHHHH Arcanist is the one true master class/job(s)

all i can say no matter job resposebility = same for all , tank dies = game over , dps low damage = enrage = game over , healer dies = u got it right ;)

Healer and tank are on the same level in terms of complexity and responsibility. Case and point T9 Ravensbeak. Both the tank and healer need to act in unison. Tank pops cd, healer pops adlo/ss, both are preparing for big damage. DPS definitely have it "easier" when it comes to mechanics, especially melee who have the least responsibility since they have to be on the boss to do their job thus any and all mechanics falls on ranged. I only say easier because most mechanics are either:

1. stack
2. get out of aoe
3. kite this here/there

DPS is a equally complex as they can make or break a fight, i.e dps check in bismark ex. Basically if you want the most tunnel vision role, pick a melee dps. If you want to know a fight inside and out be a healer or tank or ranged.

Only reason DPS is perceived to be "easier" is because for most content, you can have one DPS be dead, subpar, or otherwise useless (and one usually is) while the rest of the group carries him. Tanks/healers typically don't get that luxury. But anyone who has played all three roles should know the ins and outs of each and understand they're all equally important with their own unique challenges.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

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Melee DPS requires knowing mechanics better than ranged pretty often. When you need to stack, melee needs to as well. When you need to get out, melee needs to as well. When you need to block your own LoS from the rest of the party, melee needs to as well. A melee can't pre-position for these things though. A melee needs to know exactly how long they can stay on the boss before moving to stack. A melee needs to know when they pull off positionals and when they can't with the mechanics (Fire in/out you can't, but nerve gas you can, but you need to be ON POINT, for instance).

Let's use T9 a an example (because you did). A healer has to cast adlo/ss when she starts casting RB. A tank has to IB it or whatever. Same as they do for every fight's tank buster. Ranged DPS have to just kinda stand around the arena not too close to each other, and stack in and out.

A melee DPS has to watch where everyone else is dropping comets because the melee DPS can't pre-position to catch a comet, and have a pretty limited area they can put it in--if someone dropped a comet in their area (whether ranged or another melee) they need to make sure they aren't running toward it because they won't have time to correct or check before starting to run to a spot if they don't want to hit the tank/other melee with the falling rock. They need to do that while making sure they're on the boss, so they need to spin the camera to look after every meteor, make a note, remember and turn back. Meanwhile the ranged just stand where a meteor should land while DPSing.

Then when Nael leaps the ranged just move to center. Meanwhile monk has to immediately shouldertackle her, hit her with one attack, move out before IC goes off, then stack, and then run back to her to keep up GL3. A good ninja needs to pop perfect dodge to avoid iron chariot, run in, hit her a couple times--knowing exactly how long they have before needing to run to the stack, and then get back on the boss.

Further, for when Nael dives players, the melee need to be coordinated and run away from each other, the ranged should already be positioned. The melee also need to be careful in that fight because the raven's beak explosion can hit a melee doing a flank positional if they're standing too close to Nael--even on butt corner.

That's not to say that ranged doesn't have a lot of mechanics they need to deal with as well, but the claim that melee is 'if you want to tunnel vision' is ridiculous and just proves that you either haven't played any melee DPS classes or are not very good at them.

IMO I think DPS responsible is medium or kinda high, because if their DPS check is quite low, it makes healer run out of MP to keep party still alive.

My 2 cent... as a former raid healer turned DPS... DPS is hard... for me much harder than healer. Maintaining good damage while dealing with mechanics is no easy task. Watching people's hp was alot easier for me.

My 2 cents on this is yes they are all important to ensure a smooth run. However a few points (because they as a healer I am biased): 1. Tank kicking the bucket is not an instant wipe, actually a good healer can keep a melee dps alive long enough to res the tank and get them back in the game. 2. As far as the fight going on too long and healer running out of mp, I don't know how it is for whm and ast but it takes a lot for a SCH to be in that situation. 3. Also as a SCH because we have a pet we are expected to do more. I can honestly say micromanaging fairy, keeping everyone alive and status effects removed, and pushing out as much dps as possible stance dancing can keep you fully on your toes especially in fights like A4.

Also there's a reason why duty roulette has 24/7 tank in need bonus. There are 3 tanking mounts too. Cuz tanking is boring but the responsibility that comes with the job is greater than the majority that is dps. U can deny it all you want but there's a reason why the majority rather play dps than heal or tank. Even SE acknowledges it hence y they pamper tanks with such bonuses.