Tank Swapping Stance

So I noticed a lot of threads on here and reddit about whether tanks should be using Vit or Str etc. Now i'm just gonna say right now that I have never tanked a day in my life and I main a SCH which made me think. Would having a attribute swapping skill like "cleric stance" help with this problem. For those who don't know all healers have a skill called "cleric stance" which we can turn off and on freely and it swaps our Int (dmg) and Mind (healing) attributes so we can dps. If something like this was added for tanking would that help? especially for off-tanking? Just a random thought I had, I figured if it works for healers, why not for tanks.

Already (sorta) exists. Paladins have two stances: Sword Oath (helps with DPS) and Shield Oath (sacrifices DPS for mitigation). I think Warriors have something similar now too.

Doesn't work because tanks still need to deal damage in their tank stance in order to hold hate.

For your suggestion to work, tank threat would have to not rely on damage which would require a rework of the role as a whole.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Doesn't work because tanks still need to deal damage in their tank stance in order to hold hate.

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No they don't, any tank is capable of holding hate without tank stance if they are geared right.

Thanks for pointing out the flaws in the idea. Like I said I haven't tanked before so I wasn't sure if it would work; the idea sounded good in my head but these ideas usually aren't too practical in reality. Either way thanks for clearing it up.

For the PLD:

• Tank stance = enmity bonus, accuracy bonus, effective health bonus via reducing all incoming damage.
• DPS stance = extra damage on auto-attacks. That's all. Yes, many people forget this, but Sword Oath only ever benefits your auto-attacks. It doesn't magically make PLD skills hit harder, not for the tiny least bit.

Going into either stance incurs the GCD. That's why PLDs don't really do stance dance (they do switch stances when there's no incoming damage, but nothing close to the stance dance healers do).

What would solve the STR vs VIT debate is to redesign it so that it's not a trade-off between the two stats. Imagine if Crusader does not swap your MND and INT, but adds a flat say 20% damage to your spells in exchange for 20% less healing done, giving you healers who swear by going full INT on accessories.

"I don't need that extra healing power because it'd all end up as overheal anyway. If anyone needs that to stay alive, they should just get gud. Any healer going full MND is just dragging out the fight and are just noobs."

The STR/VIT debate isn't about stances but about the relative value of the two stats. Generally speaking, it's the old school "tank=absolute maximum survivability in worse case scenario" and the new generation "tank=enough survivability then maximum dps". Just like how healers can dps, the game gives significant freedom to how one plays the tanking and healing roles.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

For the PLD:

Tank stance = enmity bonus, accuracy bonus, effective health bonus via reducing all incoming damage.
DPS stance = extra damage on auto-attacks. That's all.

Going into either stance incurs the GCD. That's why PLDs don't really do stance dance (they do switch stances when there's no incoming damage, but nothing close to the stance dance healers do)

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You forgot the massive DPS penalty in shield that doesn't exist for sword. Good PLD do stance dance, the GCD penalty is a trade off and they have to consider it when deciding if a switch will be a gain. This is why people are so confused when they see PLD do as much damage as an average bard when in a MT role because they are surrounded by tanks who dismiss their DPS potential and spread nonsense, it's actually very easy if you actually take your DPS seriously.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

No they don't, any tank is capable of holding hate without tank stance if they are geared right.

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Until they get hate ripped right off of them by a really good DPS, but if your DPS members are so-so then you can likely get away with this. I've never met a single tank anywhere you can hold hate at max level against a properly geared DPS who can really put out numbers.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Until they get hate ripped right off of them by a really good DPS, but if your DPS members are so-so then you can likely get away with this. I've never met a single tank anywhere you can hold hate at max level against a properly geared DPS who can really put out numbers.

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Hahaha you have no idea who I play with. My monk who does 1300 dps in A1 says hi.

Indeed, the dps penalty in Shield Oath is 20% less damage done. Also, stance switching on the PLD will reset all your combos. So it is not possible on the PLD to go in Sword Oath for a quick +20% damage Royal Authority (PLD's dps skill) then quickly go back to Shield Oath to cover that next auto attack.

You can stay in Sword Oath by default and only go Shield Oath for the tank busters. But that significantly raises the healing requirement on you. If your healers are fine with that, then sure, why not. But that should not be done without healer consent.

Basically that's a tank who prioritize dps over mitigation and essentially makes use of what otherwise would end up as overheal HP. PLD stances do not modify their rotation, so it's possible that PLD who talks about maximizing dps with a healer who regularly will be overhealing, should by default be in Sword Oath and only switch into Shield Oath for the tank busters. In that case, yes stance dancing exist for the PLD.

I'm going to do some math to correct people who think you can't hold threat from a good DPS without tank stance, because they clearly haven't done the math. I'll use a DRK opener as an example since I have the numbers on hand here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...DDw/edit#gid=0

With the following opener: Unmend (DA), Hard Slash (Carve and Split), Spinning Slash (DA), Power Slash.

The potency of the threat, with enmity modifiers is as follows: 150(x3), 150, 450, 220(x3), 300(x6.5) or a total of 1950 potency.

Divide that into potency of threat per GCD and you have 487.5, now add STR gear and there is no DPS job that can generate more threat than that. The only real threat is the off tank, in particular wars with deliverance openers. But in that case you may as well have them tanking and that would be the most efficient DPS wise.

I just did a test opener with actual damage on a dummy, since it's actual damage that determines threat.

648, 635 (1936), 908, 1354.

Add enmity modifers and you get the following: 1944, 635 (1936), 2724, 8801 for a total of 16040 threat in 4 GCDs. In order to overtake that the DPS has to be doing 2138DPS in the same time period (/7.5 assuming a 2.5 second GCD). So yes, you can pull without tank stance, I think the problem is that people don't realize how big the enmity boost is on your threat combos, your tank stance is only a part of your threat generation.

Also I forgot to add the potency given by using DA, or the fact that by pulling you usually have anywhere between half to a full GCD lead on the other jobs. Also I am not even full slaying, this is with i150 crafted.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Hahaha you have no idea who I play with. My monk who does 1300 dps in A1 says hi.

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So do many of my FC mates and higher, who cares? The majority of tanks cannot pull this off and you know it. You might be able to swap stances after securing hate but many times it's a bad idea.

I'm a career WAR tank and I love the new DPS stance. I dont take advantage of it. For the trash, I just stan in Defiance but for the boss, once I have a shit ton of hate and I think the healer can take it, I switch to my Abandon stance and start tearing through stuff, just need to play it smart and have a feel for the group you are in. also have changed all my stat boosts from VIT to STR for my level bonuses and have two gear sets, one for PvE and one for DPS (PvP).

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Originally Posted by Wobi

So do many of my FC mates and higher, who cares? The majority of tanks cannot pull this off and you know it. You might be able to swap stances after securing hate but many times it's a bad idea.

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I think the point is that having a tanker super geared doesnt means much in Sword Oath. A DPS such as monk that can put up tons of damage can easyly take hate of a tank with Shield Oath. The enmity boost of Shield Oath almost secure that you keep the hate at all times and in case you loose it for a while a provoke should help you get it back, but if you remain in Sword Oath you will still keep loosing hate over strong DPS.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

So do many of my FC mates and higher, who cares? The majority of tanks cannot pull this off and you know it. You might be able to swap stances after securing hate but many times it's a bad idea.

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I don't think they do because there is no way you can preform at that level and not know that non-tank stance pulls are viable. Look at my above post, enmity combos alone have enough threat with STR gear.

As ever, it depends on the fight. =/

So since paladins had a DPS stance in 2.0, and warriors got one in 3.0, what's the likelihood dark knights get one in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

So since paladins had a DPS stance in 2.0, and warriors got one in 3.0, what's the likelihood dark knights get one in 4.0?

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Drk "dps stance" means clicking off Grit and maintaining the Darkside buff.