Waking Sands - Explain to me please (Spoilers)

Alright, so something that happened is bugging me and I am hoping someone can make sense of it.

1 - Waking Sands is over run by the Garleans, people are killed and kidnapped. Empire clearly knows this location of the Scions (as given away by a possessed/controlled Thancred).

2 - Rescue everyone, reform the Scions, yet go right back to Waking Sands and setup shop. THIS is what bothers me. The Empire knows the location, why would everyone just sit around here again? Why would the Garleans not just come right back and take everybody again?

It's a minor plot hole but it is driving me nuts as to how silly it is. Am I missing something here? :mad:

Minfillia is hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Or the most reliable. The game shouldn't have to outright say it. With that said I wouldn't call it a hole at all.

Urianger: Minfilla we must vacate somewhere safer. We've already suffered a hefty degree of bloodshed within these walls.
Minfillia: Nope this place is perfect. Think about it. Where's the last place that the enemy would expect us to hide? At the sight of our last slaughter of course!
Urianger: ...
Minfillia: Am I right Elidibus?
Elidibus: Probably!

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

Urianger: Minfilla we must vacate somewhere safer. We've already suffered a hefty degree of bloodshed within these walls.
Minfillia: Nope this place is perfect. Think about it. Where's the last place that the enemy would expect us to hide? At the sight of our last slaughter of course!
Urianger: ...
Minfillia: Am I right Elidibus?
Elidibus: Probably!

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*slow clap* thank you for giving me a much needed laugh today! :)

There isn't much time between the return to the waking sand and the defeat of the empire anyway, you rescue them right before going to kick Gaius' ass.

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Originally Posted by Cooperal

Minfillia is hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer. Or the most reliable. The game shouldn't have to outright say it. With that said I wouldn't call it a hole at all.

Urianger: Minfilla we must vacate somewhere safer. We've already suffered a hefty degree of bloodshed within these walls.
Minfillia: Nope this place is perfect. Think about it. Where's the last place that the enemy would expect us to hide? At the sight of our last slaughter of course!
Urianger: ...
Minfillia: Am I right Elidibus?
Elidibus: Probably!

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Lol, couldn't have asked for a better answer than this one. Thanks, stupidity does seem like the best fit in this situation :)

I think the cannon reason is because Urianger has shielded it with magics in the aftermath.

Silliness aside (good laugh though), I'd wager it's just a matter of timing.

From the moment the Scions escape Castrum Centri until the end of Operation Archon, the Garleans are too preoccupied fighting the Alliance to worry about them. Vesper Bay is just a stone's throw from Castrum Marinum, but remember neutralizing that castrum was the first step of the operation.

Afterwards? We moved to the Rising Stones in, what... 2.2? Security is hardly a concern when it comes to the Ascians, so...

Don't forget the Garleans got into the waking sands with Ascian help; they didn't walk through the front door.

While "MINFILLIA IS DUM XDDDDDD" is certainly the cheap and easy answer, the one that actually makes sense is a matter of timing. Once all the Scions are back together, they need to convene somewhere, and frankly it IS unlikely the empire would come calling there a second time. Besides which, the area has resources and contacts (of which Minfillia makes mention as a downside to relocating to Mor Dhona in 2.1). Furthermore, setting up a new base of operations takes time, which we saw in the patch stories. Time which we didn't have. As soon as everyone was rescued from the castrum, we went into Operation Archon planning pretty much immediately.

tl;dr is that the empire was preoccupied and security is irrelevant if an Ascian decides to pay a visit. Remember Nabriales?

I'm very happy with Minfillia's role in Patch 3.0. I think it's her best performance yet.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I think the cannon reason is because Urianger has shielded it with magics in the aftermath.

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Yeah there was something about glamour magic to make the place look like an abandoned warehouse.

As said the waking sands has had magic cast on it since the attack, anyone who enters into the building who isn't supposed to be there (unless they can see through the deception i would guess) will just see an abandoned building, even if a scion was fallowed in the person fallowing them would likely find no one inside.

I don't remember exactly who explains that but it is in-game. But even then in terms of story the scions don't stay there longer than it takes to get a new HQ and start working on getting rid of the garleans. Not to mention that the base holding the scions got something of a reckoning when you broke your fellows out of it, you can pretty much stamp "caution is advised" on future dealings between the scions and garleans.

All the Castrums in old Eorzea are still only filled with the XIVth leigon, we made sure they werent able to linkpearl to Castrum Oriens (which I assume is the gateway to Ala Mhigo)

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

I'm very happy with Minfillia's role in Patch 3.0. I think it's her best performance yet.

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All of my likes. All of them.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

All the Castrums in old Eorzea are still only filled with the XIVth leigon, we made sure they werent able to linkpearl to Castrum Oriens (which I assume is the gateway to Ala Mhigo)

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I agreed, I'm total sure we will have a dungeon there and only by clear it we will acces to the possible 4.0 areas maybe?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

I agreed, I'm total sure we will have a dungeon there and only by clear it we will acces to the possible 4.0 areas maybe?

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I hope not. I want the Garleans to be more than just fodder to be killed. They're such an incredibly interesting race with rich lore.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Yeah there was something about glamour magic to make the place look like an abandoned warehouse.

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Originally Posted by Aryalandi

As said the waking sands has had magic cast on it since the attack, anyone who enters into the building who isn't supposed to be there (unless they can see through the deception i would guess) will just see an abandoned building, even if a scion was fallowed in the person fallowing them would likely find no one inside.

I don't remember exactly who explains that but it is in-game. But even then in terms of story the scions don't stay there longer than it takes to get a new HQ and start working on getting rid of the garleans. Not to mention that the base holding the scions got something of a reckoning when you broke your fellows out of it, you can pretty much stamp "caution is advised" on future dealings between the scions and garleans.

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Tataru was the one who stated this, specifically, it was at the very end of the 2.55 story at Camp Dragonhead in the aftermath of the fateful banquet when the player and Alphinaud reunite with Tataru and Yugiri inside the Intercessory:

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Originally Posted by patch 2.55 main scenario quest 'Before the Dawn'

Tataru: "Anyway, after Yugiri found me, we travelled to Vesper Bay and met up with Urianger. When we told him what had happened, he used his magics to weave a glamour around the Waking Sands. From the outside, our old headquarters now looks like an abandoned storehouse!"
Tataru: "The transformation didn't take long either. Apparently, Urianger started making preparations after the Imperial attack, just in case the Empire ever chose to pay us another visit. Good thinking eh?"

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I hope not. I want the Garleans to be more than just fodder to be killed. They're such an incredibly interesting race with rich lore.

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what I said has no relation at all with your answer.
We dont know nothing about the garlean society, maybe they arent all bad. Maybe their own ppl is controled by a dictatorship, like most empires do.
There nothing we know deep about garleans, maybe we will have more lore of them, more culture, maybe they will be a new race.

Going back to what I said at the begining, there are big chanses that this could be a dungeon to unlock the possible 4.0 areas ( if 4.0 turns out to be ala mhigo ). Since that castrum is a wall that doesnt not let us go to those areas, also is exacly like steps of faith. Steps of faith was our trial to get acces to Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I hope not. I want the Garleans to be more than just fodder to be killed. They're such an incredibly interesting race with rich lore.

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Indeed. I am no fan of Ala Mhigo myself. Would much rather see more of Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I hope not. I want the Garleans to be more than just fodder to be killed. They're such an incredibly interesting race with rich lore.

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What lore again? Right now they're basically Roman-based Allagan copycats who can't use magic, have a sever hatred of religion and want to conquer the world.

And ironically, Ala Mhigo still has even less lore than that.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

What lore again? Right now they're basically Roman-based Allagan copycats who can't use magic, have a sever hatred of religion and want to conquer the world.

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They're very similar to the Archadian Empire of FFXII - a game which I adore quite a bit. FFXIV is heavily inspired by it in many ways so it is my hope that the Garlean Empire will have more depth to it than being stereo-typically evil. I also find the Allagan Empire to be very intriguing - and hope to see more of that in the future as well. As for 'conquering the world'? Perhaps they'd be better off ruling Eorzea given how hypocritical Eorzea's city states are. Squabbling over Allagan relics (something they're quick to criticise Garlemald for), scheming against each other and justifying atrocities in the name of 'Ala Mhigo'.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

What lore again? Right now they're basically Roman-based Allagan copycats who can't use magic, have a sever hatred of religion and want to conquer the world.

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They don't hate religeon itself, they hate the summoning of the false gods who suck aether out of the world, and temper their followers. It's also worth noting we have seen the Garleans making developments with their technology, given that those big tall gunships from 1.0's opening have been replaced by the gunships we first see in Keeper of the Lake. We've also seen Garleans breaking away from the Imperials, like Nero, Cid and

Lucia

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

They don't hate religeon itself, they hate the summoning of the false gods who suck aether out of the world, and temper their followers.

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Gaius specifically decries Eorzea's worship of the Twelve, calling us weak for relying on them for comfort and leadership. No reason to suggest that the rest of the Garleans don't share that (especially with them willing to commit genocide on those who would never summon, but still worship)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Gaius specifically decries Eorzea's worship of the Twelve, calling us weak for relying on them for comfort and leadership. No reason to suggest that the rest of the Garleans don't share that (especially with them willing to commit genocide on those who would never summon, but still worship)

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He has a right to call us weak for relying on gods, but he's not interested on killing Eorzeans just because they worship the twelve, if he did, he'd have just sat back and let Nael drop Dalamud right on top of us, instead of making an effort to prevent it. Even the bloodthirsty Emperor Varis Zos Galvus opposed the meteor project. I think the public of Garlemald will think that they have the right of it, they will see it as the Garlean Empire uniting the world and crushing those who would suck the lifeforce out of the world, they wont see it the same way Eorzea does. Garlemald does have its fair share of crazed Legatus and soldiers. But who are Eorzeans to throw stones after recent events?

Who was it who tried to release the Warring Triad and declared themself a King of the world, again?

I'm not saying the Empire are right, but they're not totally evil, Gaius did have his redeeming qualities, as does Nero.

Evil with beast tribes, and yea, the empire always proposed an peafull union before going to war.

Actually Garlemald's 'peaceful union' was in fact a demand to the Eorzean Alliance to surrender themselves to the Empire and become vassal states - effectively to become like Doma and Ala Mhigo, only without a a single shot being fired. Needless to say, this never happened (mostly due to the timely arrival of Minfilia, Alphinaud and the Warrior of Light ;)).

As for whether Garlemald is 'right' in their attitude of conquest, whatever moral high ground they may have had was eliminated the moment that they started allying with the Ascians, you know, the very beings who actually teach summoning.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

As for whether Garlemald is 'right' in their attitude of conquest, whatever moral high ground they may have had was eliminated the moment that they started allying with the Ascians, you know, the very beings who actually teach summoning.

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Ah, but do we know that Garlemald proper is allied with the Ascians? We certainly know Gaius turned to them for help in the conquest of Eorzea sometime after the Fall of Dalamud, but I don't believe Varis has given us any reason to believe he consorts with the servants of Zodiark. It's important to remember that in the course of ARR's MSQ that the XIVth legion was about as rogue as Darnus' VIIth in the final days of 1.0.

That's an actual question, I can't remember if it was explicitly stated and I'm just forgetting. It's not as clear as Ascians whispering Allag secrets in their ears either, as we know Garlemald has long profited from unraveling Allaga's technology.

Though I guess that's a totally believable plot-twist. "HA! THE GARLEAN EMPIRE? SOLUS ZOS GALVUS' EMPIRE WAS CREATED BY ASCIAN WILL!" What better way to ensure Gods are summoned, aether is drained, and wars waged than giving a backwater nation the power to conquer and installing a right sociopath to helm the most technologically advanced military in over 5000 years?

We know a few things. We know that Garlemald has a rigid class structure ranging from the Emperor right down to the people of the conquered territories don't aren't technically citizens and don't have a citizen's rights unless they prove themselves of value to the empire. We know the empire is ruthless in conquest and in enforcing its control. We know that it practices conscription. We know it has a genocidal policy towards the beast tribes which honestly might lead to a ban on religion once they discover that anyone can summon primals, not just beasttribes.

We know their leadership can be just as prone to hubris and arrogance as any other culture. We know that the Garlean's actively screw with highly dangerous technology with a sense of arrogance just asking for disaster. Its why Cid left Garlemald.

I wouldn't call Garlemald generic evil. I think they represent though an example of hubris and its dangers as well as the heights mortals can achieve. In many ways they share a lot of traits with the Allagans. Sadly, many of those traits are what led to their downfall and the terrible legacies the Allag left behind.

None of the villain races and groups are really particularly generic evil when you dig into their lore. Most however display traits that lead to suffering of others and destruction which is why we generally oppose them.

I certainly wouldn't claim the Eorzean states are as bad. They certainly have their serious flaws but nothing quite as destructive or as arrogant as the Garleans.

As for unity and peace, its worth pointing out Garlemald just had a civil war over succession.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

comment.

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Yes but what kind of civil war?
For what we know, the revolucionars. On what side of the of this war there were the ones that were the royals, I mean the ppl loyal to the last emperor and on the orther side the ones loyal to Varis ( rovolucionars )?
Of what we know, Varis despise his grand uncle, so he was not on his side, that is obious. But there was no side that wanted a republic, so far we know. Both sides had different opinions on how to continue the empire.

Maybe I wrong? maybe the orther side wanted to start a republic and the one of varis, continue the empire?

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

As for whether Garlemald is 'right' in their attitude of conquest, whatever moral high ground they may have had was eliminated the moment that they started allying with the Ascians, you know, the very beings who actually teach summoning.

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I don't think Varis knows about that particular bit, since it's revealed pretty late in 3.0's storyline. However, this might be more useful in showing Varis' motivations:

You know as well as we what will ensue should these insatiable creatures be allowed to roam free--that their very existence threatens the life of this star. We but disagree on the solution to the problem.

Varis is entirely preoccupied with ending the primal threat, and he will not hesitate to exterminate anyone or anything that prevents him from meeting that goal.

edit: I don't know SE's Grand Plan, but based on Varis' behavior so far, it wouldn't surprise me if he threw in to help with the Ascians.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

edit: I don't know SE's Grand Plan, but based on Varis' behavior so far, it wouldn't surprise me if he threw in to help with the Ascians.

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Its almost certain the the Ascians have a hand in the Emperor's plans. Most likely, they are much more "hidden" than how Lahabrea handled the Archbishop and Gaius (they both knew they were dealing with the Paragons), and definitely keeping hidden that they know of summoning beyond "its bad for the star". Don't forget, we've been (and likely still are, to a lesser extent) manipulated by them as well. The Ascians are literally everywhere, and moreso whenever Primals are concerned.

I'm undecided on who is going to wake the Triad (you know its going to happen and have something to do with the VIth Legion); the questions are "when?" and "who does it?"; will it be Varis, after being manipulated into thinking they spawned the Primals and the only way to stop them is kill their creators (which then backfires horribly), or that they hold the power needed to stop the Primals once and for all? Hydrus, seeking power for power's sake or the to protect his Emperor? Or will it be the Warrior of Light...

I can see us working alongside the Garleans to reseal the Warring Triad, neither side wants a real Eikon on the rampage.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

I can see us working alongside the Garleans to reseal the Warring Triad, neither side wants a real Eikon on the rampage.

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I hope so. This would be awesome - and allow the Garleans to be more than just fodder to be killed/opposed at every turn. It'd also set up a potential push for peace and more diplomacy - perhaps if the Warrior of Light ends up being the one to save the Emperor.

Though I don't think Varis is going to survive. I think he'll be betrayed and killed as a blatant reference to FF6...

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Yes but what kind of civil war?
For what we know, the revolucionars. On what side of the of this war there were the ones that were the royals, I mean the ppl loyal to the last emperor and on the orther side the ones loyal to Varis ( rovolucionars )?
Of what we know, Varis despise his grand uncle, so he was not on his side, that is obious. But there was no side that wanted a republic, so far we know. Both sides had different opinions on how to continue the empire.

Maybe I wrong? maybe the orther side wanted to start a republic and the one of varis, continue the empire?

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We know it was a war of succession. A war over who would take the dead emperor's place. My point is that Garlemald stability is dependent entirely on the power of the current emperor. The moment there is a power vacuum it can become a free for all. Its pretty clear that Garlemald has its factions.

The only example of an attempt at changing the current structure of the empire was Doma's attempt at succession which was put down brutally, hence all the Doman refugees.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

I can see us working alongside the Garleans to reseal the Warring Triad, neither side wants a real Eikon on the rampage.

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I think the fact there are factions within Garlemald will eventually play into events. I suspect the current leadership will be mainly villians. They have strong traits of Hubris and Overconfidence. Note, the Garlean's don't only seem interested in the technology to seal Eikons but also the tech that enslaved them. There are a lot of similarities in the folly that lead to the depravities of the Allag and the path the Garleans are on. A similarity in mindset. I think though we will see Garleans who recognise this. Cid is technically an example of that, but I'm more talking of loyal Garleans. Nero might have a part to play in that.

No enemy we have had in this game have been completely villains, except maybe the Ascians. The beasttribe dailies should very clearly that the Beasttribes weren't clear cut villains. Infact the Sahagin and Kobalds had a pretty understandable side to their side of the war. I think eventually we will work with at least a group within Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Note, the Garlean's don't only seem interested in the technology to seal Eikons but also the tech that enslaved them.

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I think the thought process here is that one of the two approaches can get rid of the primals entirely--you either seal them away, or if that fails, you enslave them to some machine and then bury it in a hole somewhere.

After all, nobody knew the Warring Triad existed until the snow pope pulled Azys Lla down to an accessible height.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I think the thought process here is that one of the two approaches can get rid of the primals entirely--you either seal them away, or if that fails, you enslave them to some machine and then bury it in a hole somewhere.

After all, nobody knew the Warring Triad existed until the snow pope pulled Azys Lla down to an accessible height.

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Not so. The whole reason he wanted to get to Azys Lla in the first place was because he wanted to absorb their power. Most likely, the Ascians told him they were there and that they could give him the power he desired to ascend to Primal status.

We don't really know if the Ascians are manipulating Varis. I think it's more likely that his intentions are pure and he'll seek to destroy the Warring Triad - though Regula will betray him. Either because he wishes to gain the power for himself or because Regula ends up being corrupted/seduced by the Warring Triad. We already know that the Archbishop weakened their wards so that's my theory - that their influence will corrupt Regula (and therefore give us the 'Kefka' moment that seems very likely if we're getting a strong tie in to FF6).