Ways to Improve the DRK

Hello there, I made this thread to generate ideas to assist DRK in ways to make the class better.

Problems:

Damage mitigation: Worse than PLD

Self Healing: Worse than War

Utility: Less than both classes

Dark Mind: Even when buffed with Dark Arts only lasts for 10 seconds. That is almost worthless. That especially needs to be buffed.

Suggestions:

Capitalize on an anti-caster tank class: Give the DRK more utility that weakens spells done to the DRK or to the party. Perhaps take a page from the Death Knight and give them an anti-magic field to throw on the ground. Except make it useful in this case.

Parry: Give the DRK the ability to Parry spells from casters as well. This may or may not give the DRK his own niche and role in the tanking world.

If anyone else has suggestions or comments feel free to post them. Thanks for reading!

YES! Your parry casters idea is exactly what I was thinking would be a really cool addition to their kit! Make it so Grit allows them to parry casts!
YES! increase the duration of Dark Mind! I love it.

I would only add that the self healing combo of Souleater should not be part of the Syphon Strike Combo, It should be part of the Hard Slash/Spinning Slash combo!

I agree with you, just give them like... just a little more.

Please. No more RNG.

Make them more like Shadowknights in Everquest, Lifetaps and DOTs instead of high mitigation. NO RNG.

Would be nice if they change how "carve and spit" like when it's not buffed by DA it will regen mana and maybe gain 50 TP

And maybe change Delirium Int debuff to stackable with dragon kick that would be great because right now warrior has storm path and is not cross firing any class atm and so is paladin str down is not cross firing any class atm but why does dark knight has to get the short end of the stick

I'm failing miserably to understand the complaints with DRK at level 60.

DPS: You have two 400+ potency attacks, 75 and 40 potency DoTs with a very short cooldown and joke of a TP cost, respectively, the most spammable AoE with proper MP management, an OGCD gap closer. Suffers only a 5% damage reduction while MTing.

Utility: -10% incoming damage, -10% incoming INT based damage. Former stacks with Storm's Path. Latter procs on parry but in any fight where you're MTing its up at least half the time.

Hate: DA Power Slash is ridiculous and is enough to put you in the lead on hate to the point where you don't need to maintenance it for half a dozen full combo rotations at least, leaving you free to focus on mitigation, DPS, and utility. Gap closer supplements pulling, Abyssal Drain is targeted, ranged AoE hate. Salted Earth further supplements steady hate on trash.

Mitigation: Has a Vengeance and a Rampart. Dark Dance and Dark Mind have ridiculously short recast times, and are easily stacked with Foresight/Awareness/Convalescence/Bloodbath for a decent dual-CD. Has 4 cross-classable defensive CDs where the other tanks get 2. DA Dark Mind stacked with a Shadowskin or Shadow Wall makes most magical tank busters hit you like a wet paper bag, whereas a Dark Dance+Foresight trivializes sustained auto-attack damage. With Dark Mind already have an anti-caster tank. You have a tank buster (most tank busters thus far have been magical) CD with only a 60s recast. Its OP if anything. If you DA Dark Mind + Shadow Wall an Akh Morn with Reprisal and Delirium up that's an 80% reduction in damage. I haven't tested yet but I'm pretty sure DRK could solo the first two Akh Morns without Living Dead. With that kind of magic mitigation you don't need to parry magic. Its not worthless. Its like having a magic-based mini Sentinel, without actually using your Sentinel (Shadow Wall). Dark Dance's parry rate increase sees to it that any boss that auto attacks is going to reset your Low Blow recast and proc Reprisal with moderate consistency. It is actually possible to have 1-2 defensive CDs up with near 100% uptime with a proper rotation. Has a 400 potency self heal, a targeted, ranged AoE self heal, and cross classes Bloodbath. DRK requires tanks to stack multiple CDs on occasion in exchange for having more of them and having shorter recast times. Its not like Pally where you push one button and you're set. And if you can't time a 10s duration CD to survive a tank buster (Dark Mind and Shadow Wall are obvious tank buster CDs) you need practice.

Resource management: A DA Power Slash opener leaves you free to use Syphon Strike combos, DA Soul Eaters, maintain debuffs, and Blood Price is enough even on single targets to maintain a constant MP pool if you're paying attention.

OTing: With proper use of Blood weapon you have a 400 potency attack every 7.35 seconds for 20 seconds and an additional OGCD 450 potency attack afterwards, while maintaining debuffs and MP in the 20 sec remaining on the CD at that point. Not to mention an OGCD gap closer, stun, AoE DoT, and line AoE.

There's nothing wrong with DRK. It just does not play at all like the other tanks. But trust me, its awesome and honestly needs no fixes other than maybe OTing TP issues.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I'm failing miserably to understand the complaints with DRK at level 60.

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Then you have to dig better the class, and the utility of the other 2 Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

DPS: ...

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The Dps is worse than a War in the OT spot and in a sustained fight you will run out of TP. In the MT spot you can do more Dps Than a pld may be, but with the far worse mitigation than the Pld and the lack of a skill like hallowed ground there is no reason to contend the MT spot if you have a PLD avaible. Same rason for the OT spot with a Warrior

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Utility: -10% incoming damage, -10% incoming INT

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Even the utily to the party is far behind the other Tanks. Reprisal is not reliable since you can't keep it up. If a switch happen, bye bye reprisal. In a fight you have still no reason to bring a DrK. The combo Pld+Drk+Monk will provide a FAR better mitigation just using their always up skill. (str down,path and dragon kick). And all of this without talking about Divine veil and Clemency from the paladin.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Hate:

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Yup, the hate is fine. Even too easy.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Mitigation:

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The mitigation is behind too. vegeance have shorter CD and Sentinel 10% more mitigation. Shadow Skin is on the same level of Rampart and Inner beast. with Dark mind on the same utility spot of Thrill of Battle and the Block chance you still lack of CD in the 50-60 lv range. ( Clemency, Divine Veil,Sheltron, Raw intuition, equilibrium) wich set the Drk on a spot with TWO (2!!!) less cooldown.

All of this put the Drk in a bad spot. You can do every content right now with it? yeah, sure. The other two tanks make it easier and play their job and role better in ANY situation? Again, Yes. No reason to carry a DrK in a party if you have the other 2 job avaible.

DRK's aggro management has to be godly easy.

They're the only tank punished for using their enmity combo.

RoH: STR debuff. BB: Highest potency combo
Power Slash: Second weakest combo, no utility, no Syphon for MP rejuvenation.. You're losing 2-3 ticks of MP via Darkside just using it. I expect DRK aggro modifiers will be adjusted nerfed in 3.05, as well as adding a buff of some sort to PS so that it will become a viable part of DRKs rotation. As is, avoid it like the plague.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

(most tank busters thus far have been magical)

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Wrong.
In 2.x most of tank busters were physical.

Mountain Buster
Death Sentence
Ravensbeak
Bahamut's Claw
Critical Rip
Revelation
Flatten

Lol'd so hard when I read Dark Mind is worthless because it lasts 10 seconds. You know how long Sentinel & Shadow Wall lasts or Inner Beast? The duration is fine. Know when moves are coming out and act accordingly.

Drk Isn't on a spot with 2 less cooldowns, They have the same quantity as PLD's. PLD's Sentinel and Convalesence (and awareness but lol) are more potent. Shelltron is physical 1 hit, Dark Mind is magical however many hits fit in 10s.


The deal isn't to make tank classes the same. If one wants all classes the same then there is no point in classes at all. Its for each Job to have is strengths and weaknesses to make them valuable. Square is setting up Pld to be the main Physical damage tank with defensive team support, thats not a biggie. They've set up warrior to enable the other tanks full potential via Storms Path & Storms Eye while also being potent as general damage mitigation through Inner Beast. They're setting up Dark to be the Paladins Magical counter-part but it does not have defensive team support. In terms of every tank having its niche that makes it desirable the questions are primarily

1) Has SE met its goal of DRK having an advantage for Magical Damage.
2) If SE has Met the first goal is this advantage large enough to make up for the reduced Utility they provide to teammates
3) If the Advantage is not large enough, then what other advantages do they bring. Is it personal damage, team defensive, team offense, team healing?
4) For their Skills/mechanics in general does everything have its purpose is anything particularly clunky/unwieldy. Obviously some skills are not meant to be used generally and are there for specific situations, are they good at these situations?
'As far as Magical damage goes I believe the DRK is pretty much where it needs to be.

Living Dead is an example of 4). It works and its a functional skill but does not speak well for the long term. The more Health a DRK has the more health that must be restored. Health goes up with gear, while the CD is lower then Hallowed ground it is certainly a more cumbersome skill with lesser results. Is the expectation that Healer output will scale linearly with tank health so that there is no disruption at all as we gain more and more health?

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I'm failing miserably to understand the complaints with DRK at level 60.

DPS: You have two 400+ potency attacks, 75 and 40 potency DoTs with a very short cooldown and joke of a TP cost, respectively, the most spammable AoE with proper MP management, an OGCD gap closer. Suffers only a 5% damage reduction while MTing.
Individual potencies don't matter, overall DPS does. WAR wins on that. WAR also has unlimited TP, PLD can go for 30-45s longer than DRK. DRK does 1*0.8*1.15=92% of a DRK with no Grit/Darkside. WAR does 1*0.75*1.2=90% of a WAR with no Defiance/Deliverance, but WAR also has Inner Beast and Unchained which ignore the penalty.

Utility: -10% incoming damage, -10% incoming INT based damage. Former stacks with Storm's Path. Latter procs on parry but in any fight where you're MTing its up at least half the time.
Reprisal is completely random. Delirium isn't unique, MNK has the same debuff.

Hate: DA Power Slash is ridiculous and is enough to put you in the lead on hate to the point where you don't need to maintenance it for half a dozen full combo rotations at least, leaving you free to focus on mitigation, DPS, and utility. Gap closer supplements pulling, Abyssal Drain is targeted, ranged AoE hate. Salted Earth further supplements steady hate on trash.
Enmity is literally no problem. Both PLD and WAR can hold single target and aoe enmity with no change of losing aggro, so I don't see why that would be considered an advantage of DRK.

Huge wall of mitigation text
DRK simply can't match PLD or WAR in a cooldown rotation. Even in magic heavy fights, WAR ends up with more mitigation thanks to Inner Beast and its short cooldowns. That's kinda funny considering magic tanking is meant to be DRK's gimmick.

Resource management: A DA Power Slash opener leaves you free to use Syphon Strike combos, DA Soul Eaters, maintain debuffs, and Blood Price is enough even on single targets to maintain a constant MP pool if you're paying attention.
Probably the only place you're right, but WAR/PLD don't even have to deal with that at all.

OTing: With proper use of Blood weapon you have a 400 potency attack every 7.35 seconds for 20 seconds and an additional OGCD 450 potency attack afterwards, while maintaining debuffs and MP in the 20 sec remaining on the CD at that point. Not to mention an OGCD gap closer, stun, AoE DoT, and line AoE.
And you'll be out of TP and useless at 2:15 into a fight. You don't even burst higher than WAR in that time.
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Stuff in bold.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

1) Has SE met its goal of DRK having an advantage for Magical Damage.
2) If SE has Met the first goal is this advantage large enough to make up for the reduced Utility they provide to teammates
3) If the Advantage is not large enough, then what other advantages do they bring. Is it personal damage, team defensive, team offense, team healing?
4) For their Skills/mechanics in general does everything have its purpose is anything particularly clunky/unwieldy. Obviously some skills are not meant to be used generally and are there for specific situations, are they good at these situations?
'As far as Magical damage goes I believe the DRK is pretty much where it needs to be.

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Point 3:

Just look at the utility of MCH & AST as well. The utility of all 3 are lacking - or at least - not on par with the others in their roles (BRD/SCH/PLD/WAR). I'd sooner assume SE was playing it safe when rolling out these 3 Extra Jobs, and are using the community through 3.05 as QA testing to help decide where and how to strengthen their party enhancing capabilities - but doing so also considering how to not disrupt or phase out other jobs' utility.

They admitted in the Famitsu article (which was what - less 2 weeks before Early Access?) that they hadn't decided on what debuff to add to Delirium. That's a strong indication of the above. They're erred on the side of caution - not wanting other jobs to rage. They'll sprinkle in the utility once they've got Data analysis from the community. They've already promised adjustments to AST before (SAVAGE).

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

=They admitted in the Famitsu article (which was what - less 2 weeks before Early Access?) that they hadn't decided on what debuff to add to Delirium. That's a strong indication of the above. They're erred on the side of caution - not wanting other jobs to rage. They'll sprinkle in the utility once they've got Data analysis from the community. They've already promised adjustments to AST before (SAVAGE).

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I'm just hoping they see that INT down was a bad idea and makes it Magic Damage down. Achieves the same thing, works wonders with Storms Path and Dragon Kick, and gives us something to add to the raid.

Wouldn't say Int down is bad at all. This game is only going to add more jobs, it's to be expected that there will be some carry over for mix and matching compositions, as we see rather clearly for WAR and NIN. The difference here is that Both War and Nin have stronger combinations if someone else is applying the slashing debuff. Delirium is the strongest combination for a DRK and a Monk has to apply Dragon Kick since it has their blunt resistance.

Magi damage down is basically just another way of saying "Why not just let Delirium and Dragon Kick stack", which would end the whole argument towards Delirium. Simultaneously there's no harm in Drk being a "selfish" tank either, but then it has to be *good* at being Selfish.

Solution for TP issues:

Buff Unmend. Increase potency to 200 and move the delerium added effect to unmend.

What's really odd is during the live letter they flat out said that drk = magic tank. If this was the core concept around the build, then I really gotta ask why they gave us dark dance? We all know how well reprisal is working, when its not on cooldown....(lets not even talk about the dark arts version with evasion).

The thing that really blows my mind is SE has already had a magic tank in the past. FFXI rune fencer ring a bell to anyone? Almost feels like SE mixed that + dark knight together into some odd hybrid that we see now.

The difference being rune fencer was pretty good for magic mitigation, and even had a skill for party wide magic mitigation.

But truly, I'd rather just have dark knight like the original concept we've seen in all of the FF games. I feel in terms of mitigation, and enmity drk is currently fine (though some tweaking would be nice). The main issue is how its set apart from other tanks. Paladin is centered around being the highest mitigation tank, and blocking. Warrior has the wrath/abandon mechanic. I think DRK needs a real focus to set it apart.

One thing I noticed is drk is centered around mp. The odd part is all tanks technically have a use for mp. The only difference being war has no way to regain it outside of regen over time.

So if drk's mechanic really is to be focused around mp; I think it should be done like this:

Since drk's goal is to always have up darkside in both MT and OT; it should be setup accordingly. Meaning while in grit, darkside should do a scaled down version of blood price. While not in grit, darkside should be like blood weapon.

Meaning while your are taking dmg you regain mp, and while you're OT you are regaining mp by attacking.

The reason I suggest it that way is because it would free up two skills. You could then replace one of them with a skill that restores tp/mp. Like those above, I can confirm that drk runs dry far faster than other tanks whlie OT.

I also think they should get rid of dark passenger, dark dance, and rework abyssal drain. Abyssal drain should have two separate uses. Non dark arts should be a single target hp drain (higher drain on single target). Dark arts version should be the same and drain a certain amount of hp from all targets.

I honestly I'm kind of disappointed with how very few skills you can apply dark arts on, and really wish they expanded them to include most of them. That would then allow more different play styles for different situations.

Perhaps they could add a skill that lets us either exchange mp for tp, or allow us to do all of our tp moves for mp cost. Oddly enough ffxi drk had a skill called "scarlet delirium", which "Channels damage taken into enhanced attack and magic attack." There was also a skill called "soul enslavement", which let you regain tp upon striking.

So what I'm saying by all of this is if drk is a magic tank; give us more magic tank like abilities than just 1. If drk is a parry tank, fix parry. If drk is all about mp then it seriously needs to be reworked. Instead of being jack of all trades master of none.

Its like we are all playing a 2.0 war, with tp issues that relies on an mp mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I'm failing miserably to understand the complaints with DRK at level 60.

DPS: You have two 400+ potency attacks, 75 and 40 potency DoTs....

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Pls tell about this rumored 75 potency dot....we only have a 40 potency dot from scourge. which is a secret nerf because at the start from heavensward the potency was at 45.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

DRK's aggro management has

I expect DRK aggro modifiers will be adjusted nerfed in 3.05, as well as adding a buff of some sort to PS so that it will become a viable part of DRKs rotation. As is, avoid it like the plague.

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If they do that we are instantly kicked out of any tanking spot. we eat way to much dmg and we deal to less dmg. they could make him a dps right away. nobody would use a drk as a tank anymore.

The 75 potency Dot is salted earth. Its a ground targetted aoe that deals damage over time to all standing within it for 21 seconds...
Every 3 seconds they're hit, its 7 hits, 525 potency aoe.

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Its like we are all playing a 2.0 war, with tp issues that relies on an mp mechanic.

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This isn't even close to 2.0 war.

An adjustments I believe make sense for starters.
Waking dead does not need the 100% health requirement. Its cooldown is 2 minutes longer then Holmgang and its effect is weaker then Hallowed ground.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

The 75 potency Dot is salted earth. Its a ground targetted aoe that deals damage over time to all standing within it for 21 seconds...
Every 3 seconds they're hit, its 7 hits, 525 potency aoe.

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Thats not a Dot its a stationary aoe....

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Originally Posted by Hypie

Thats not a Dot its a stationary aoe....

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Technically it's both. It's a stationary AOE that does damage over time (dot). Not sure why you're arguing over semantics.

At first glance on the DRK kit I thought it was pretty weak, but after leveling it a bit I can see it being pretty good when played properly, especially against numerous mobs (like Alex 2) and heavy magic damage bosses (like Alex 4). If Alex Savage is unclearable on DRK without overgearing, then it'll probably need some help. I think it's too early to jump to conclusions at this point.

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Originally Posted by Hypie

Thats not a Dot its a stationary aoe....

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That does Damage Over Time (DOT). Dark Flare or whatever is ALSO a stationary AOE that most people call a DOT.

Well for me a dot is something like scourge. Everything that is removed when you kite the mob out of the area is a aoe for me o,o°

Any ability that deals its damage over time Is a Dot, this can be applied as an aoe, or a targetted skill on the environment or on the target.

Imo an area that falters is Unleash vs Abyssal Drain.
AB is ranged...does more damage and has a dark side benefit.....but unleash is more lax on MP kind of meagre.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Stuff in bold.

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1.TP never stopped WARs in 2.x WAR is also designed more as an OT and its higher DPS is part of its utility. DRK is more in-between.

2. Random, but frequent. When MTing I rarely have to wait more than a few seconds after its recast time is up before it procs. The fact that MNK overwrites Delirium means we can end our combos with 400 potency instead of 280 whilst self healing. I'm okay with that, I'll bet any group would be too. Having a MNK keeping DK up actually boosts my DPS and simplifies my rotation. =]

3. The advantage isn't that the other tanks can't do anything, I never once argued that the other tanks were lacking in anything. DRK has higher potency non-aggro combos and the trivialization of aggro in your opener as an MT DRK frees you up to focus on that and thus MP, debuffs, and damage.

4. No. Dark Dance = Bulwark. Bulwark is 60% supplemented by a good shield. Great. It also has triple the recast time and 3/4 of the duration. For mild, sustained mitigation against fluff physical damage the closest WAR equivalent is Foresight, which is cross-classable. Draw here if you ask me. Shadowskin = Inner Beast = Rampart. Inner Beast's uptime relative to its duration is the almost the same same percentage (6s out of every 15-20 vs. 20s out of every 90) WAR wins here though. Shadow Wall = Vengeance = Sentinel. PLD edge here. Dark Mind = ??? This is basically an extra 30% mitigation you can stack on top of Shadowskin or Shadow Wall for any magic-based tank buster that the other tanks completely lack, or just pop on CD for fights where ALL the damage is magic, like A4 (someone also corrected me on magical tank busters. Yoshi did say though that there was going to be a leaning towards more magic-based damage in upcoming content). I guess you could equate this to Raw Intuition or Sheltron? Sheltron blocks only one attack and Raw Intuition has a longer CD. Dark Mind will be up for more tank busters, DRK has the edge here. The new self heals for WAR/PLD are big but they are gated by recast time/huge MP cost versus DRK's smaller Souleater heals that are pretty much constant. Pretty equal here. Thrill of Battle is unique to WAR but doesn't really do anything by itself without input from the healers or supplemented with Convalescence which again, is cross-classable. None of the other CDs WAR and PLD get are really game changers cause squeenix gave them all to DRK via cross class and thus they can be stacked with its CDs, etc. I'd say the tanks are pretty well balanced for mitigation.

PLD------------WAR------------DRK
Rampart - Inner Beast - Shadowskin
Sentinel - Vengeance - Shadow Wall
Bulwark - Thrill of Battle - Dark Dance
Sheltron - Raw Intuition - Dark Mind
Clemency - Equilibrium - Souleater
Convalescence - Convalescence - Convalescence
Bloodbath - Bloodbath - Bloodbath
Awareness - Awareness - Awareness
Foresight - Foresight - Foresight

5. A job being more difficult or complex to play in no way affects its efficiency in a raid when in the hands of a good player so yeah. WARs stack management I'd argue is somewhat equivalent to this but I guess not anymore with Deliverance/Abandon.

6. You'll be out of TP and useless 2:15 into hitting a dummy or fighting a punching bag like T8 or T12, of which there no such fights in current 3.0 content. There's currently not a relevant encounter where a DRK is allowed 100% uptime on a boss, OTing, where the boss does not engage in some mechanic that makes it untargetable/out of range/etc. Burst also depends on a number of factors. You'd have to have a DRK and WAR both out of tank stance with neither of them shouldering the responsibility of their respective debuffs (a NIN keeping DE up and MNK keeping DK up) to free them both up to use their highest potency combos. If either of them has to put up and maintain a debuff due to party composition that affects DPS for both of them, and of course, have identical gear. If you've got a side-by-side parse of those circumstances I'd love to see it. Also I've not discovered an unanimously agreed upon OT DRK opener but if you've got one, enlighten me.

I just really love the job and don't feel gimped at all while playing it, and I leveled and raided with both tanks in 2.x so I'm perplexed by the droves of people crying for buffs. I didn't enjoy being shoehorned into the OT slot as WAR and got bored with the simplicity of PLD. Party composition really shouldn't be an issue that people dwell upon if your group is skilled. Happy's group dropped t13 with a DRG and SMN before their respective buffs/fixes and no MNK. I've yet to be turned away from a raid group or PF because people were like eh, no reason to bring a DRK. I doubt people have the job min-maxed to the point where we can make judgements.

EDIT: Oh wait, checked your lodestone. DRK lvl 40. That's okay bud. Level it more, you'll learn to love it. :D

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Shadowskin = Inner Beast = Rampart. Inner Beast's uptime relative to its duration is the almost the same same percentage (6s out of every 15-20 vs. 20s out of every 90) WAR wins here though.

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WAR wins because "relative mitigation" is irrelevant. You want to mitigate every big hits, and Inner Beast's "cooldown" means that you'll have it ready everytime.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

WAR wins because "relative mitigation" is irrelevant. You want to mitigate every big hits, and Inner Beast's "cooldown" means that you'll have it ready everytime.

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Except there aren't any tank busters that happen every 20 seconds, anywhere, in the entire game, and the ones that happen the most frequently require a tank swap or could easily be mitigated by some other means in the case of the other two tanks because the other two tanks have more raw mitigation CDs and more small CDs to supplement them; WAR has IB on such a short "cooldown" to balance the fact that it literally has only one single other raw mitigation CD (Vengeance). ToB doesn't actually mitigate anything, Foresight is not exclusive to WAR, and Raw Intuition is essentially a physical Dark Mind with a longer duration and longer recast time, balanced by the crit mechanic.

I dunno why people keep up with this. When you actually take everything into account (durations, cooldown times, percentages, etc.) and consider that we have no clue what mechanics future content is going to bring the tanks at the moment are actually very well balanced. Every tank, in terms of defensive cooldowns anyway, has tools that equate to the tools the other tank brings, when all aspects of the abilities are considered. DRK just especially appeals to me because of the extra cross class CDs and short recast times of Dark Dance and Dark Mind, giving me high uptime and multiple creative ways to stack 2 or more CDs for a given situation, and the active playstyle of resource management that is absent in the other two tanks.

There hasn't been a single tank buster in the new content that I have not been able to prepare for and have CDs off cooldown and "ready every time" I have literally never eaten a tank buster because I burned all my shit and had nothing to pop, and if I ever did, it'd be me that fucked up, not the devs that designed the job. I've even theory-crafted FlattenBreath/Akh Morn CD rotation for DRK elsewhere on the forums. If there was content with tank busters placed such that it was impossible to effectively mitigate them with the tools at hand and their durations/recast times, then yeah, I'd say DRK was in a bad spot. But yeah, that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Except there aren't any tank busters that happen every 20 seconds, anywhere, in the entire game

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Back in 2.xx, Odin used Sangetall far too frequently for a PLD to have a reliable mitigation tool for each one. So, yes, you'd need a tank swap to ensure that everything go smoothly.
With a WAR, you could do a solo tank without any issue and bring an additionnal DPS.

And the point is not really that a tank buster can happen every 20s but just more often than the cooldown rotation for PLD.
For example, a tankbuster every minute ?
First buster, you use Rampart
1 minute later, you use Sentinel
1 minute later, Rampart is back, so you use it
1 minute later, Sentinel and Rampart are still on cooldown. Do yout put Hallowed Ground in your "usual" cooldown rotation ?

As a WAR, you could have a Rampart-like mitigation for every tank buster, and pop Vengeance more often than Sentinel on top of Inner Beast.
I won't count Foresight and Awareness, since both tanks can do it (And WAR more often than PLD for Foresight)

That leaves Bulwark which is not as reliable as other CD, and WAR can pop Thrill Of Battle and Second Wind to ensure a safety net.
And this is without counting Storm's Path.

Back to your list of CD, it's more like that :

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

PLD---------------WAR------------------------------DRK
Rampart -------- Inner Beast --------------------- Shadowskin <- WAR wins
Sentinel --------- Vengeance+Inner Beast ---- Shadow Wall <- WAR wins
Bulwark --------- Raw Intuition+Inner Beast -- Dark Dance <- WAR wins (It can even pop Featherfoot to be closer to a Dark Arts-Dark Dance
Sheltron -------- Thrill of Battle ------------------- Dark Mind
Clemency ------- Equilibrium ---------------------- Souleater
Convalescence - Convalescence ------------------ Convalescence
Bloodbath ------- Bloodbath ----------------------- Bloodbath
Awareness ------ Awareness --------------------- Awareness
Foresight -------- Foresight ----------------------- Foresight

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People think PLD is far more sturdy because it blocks more damage in between tankbusters, thus requiring less heal overall.
But, when mitigation really matters, WAR has absolutely no drawback, except when when you compare the aftermath of Hallowed Ground vs Holmgang.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Lol'd so hard when I read Dark Mind is worthless because it lasts 10 seconds. You know how long Sentinel & Shadow Wall lasts or Inner Beast?

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So comparing skills that are outright better than dark mind that also last 10 seconds makes dark mind justified? You might as well have just said, "You know what else lasts 10 seconds? Hallowed ground, boom checkmate".

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Originally Posted by Nova_Leon

So comparing skills that are outright better than dark mind that also last 10 seconds makes dark mind justified? You might as well have just said, "You know what else lasts 10 seconds? Hallowed ground, boom checkmate".

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No the idea that 10 seconds is intrinsically a short duration is flawed, its a perfectly fine duration for a defensive cooldown, how melodramatic.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

No the idea that 10 seconds is intrinsically a short duration is flawed, its a perfectly fine duration for a defensive cooldown, how melodramatic.

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^ this /10char

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Originally Posted by Hundred

No the idea that 10 seconds is intrinsically a short duration is flawed, its a perfectly fine duration for a defensive cooldown, how melodramatic.

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The 10 seconds is a variable in it's flawed nature. Being 10 seconds doesn't automatically equal flawed as you are trying to present my argument as being. The meaning was that for 10 seconds of that buff it gives poor value simply because of how situational it is compared to the other skills that you listed. The ratio of buff duration/mana spent is also bad. I'm not surprised coming from a person who saw "almost worthless" and interpreted "worthless". Worthless is when it doesn't even deserve a slot on the bar. Almost worthless is it rarely gets value. Talk about melodramatic, it was hard to take you seriously when you misinterpreted my argument or intentionally created a straw man by attacking a position that I was not defending.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Solution for TP issues:

Buff Unmend. Increase potency to 200 and move the delerium added effect to unmend.

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No. Simply make it so Delirium can work with Dark Arts, and DA'ing it restores 150 TP along with the normal debuff. There, we've fixed it.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Waking dead does not need the 100% health requirement. Its cooldown is 2 minutes longer then Holmgang and its effect is weaker then Hallowed ground.

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I have to agree, change it to 50-66% health and it'll be golden.

For a tank designed to be the "magical defense tank", its actual magic damage mitigation is weak. Its only a tad bit better than PLD and WAR. That's pretty bad given that WAR does a lot more dps than DRK and PLD is much more physically sturdy than DRK.

I think Dark Mind's cd should be changed to 40secs, so it can be used a bit more frequently.

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Originally Posted by Domira

I think Dark Mind's cd should be changed to 40secs, so it can be used a bit more frequently.

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Yeah, I like the idea of dark mind but I feel it isn't where it needs to be yet. A decrease in cd duration may help a great deal.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Leon

Yeah, I like the idea of dark mind but I feel it isn't where it needs to be yet. A decrease in cd duration may help a great deal.

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It's up often enough for (averagely-spaced) tank busters/big AOE raid damage isn't it? Not much of a Raider myself but from what I've read from others it's CD is NOT a cause for concern.

As for DRKs TP issues, I think Dark Dance makes the most sense as the TP regeneration skill. Has a good CD and currently has no use outside of MT. Just make it so that in Grit it does it's current thing and outside of Grit it regens TP (more with Dark Arts).

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Originally Posted by spelley

It's up often enough for (averagely-spaced) tank busters/big AOE raid damage isn't it? Not much of a Raider myself but from what I've read from others it's CD is NOT a cause for concern.

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Just about yea. Reducing the cooldown is just a idea. Even a increased duration or buffing the mitigation from 30% to 40% would ensure DRKs really are "The magic mitigation tank". On another note, DRKs group utility is pretty bad. Definitely the worst of the three tanks.

I think TP regen is a waste and is players loosing sight of the game. Between Goad, Paeon, the MCH's turret and hell watchamacallit from AST, the game encourages TP to be cared about and supported by allies. Complete self sufficiency only works against numerous support skills in the game and diminishes their value if everyone is self-sufficient.

A warriors TP regen is really based on Fell Cleave/Decimate/Inner Beast/Steel cyclone.
60/3 = 20. You regen 20 TP a second. 200/60 = 3.3. Equilibrium gives you 3.3 TP per second, so A warrior in deliverance has 23.3 TP regen per second. 190 is the TP cost of the combo rotation. 190/7.5 = 25.333333333333333333333333333333. In a world without downtime a Warrior still eventually taps out even if he had no skill speed except...Wrath/Abandon skills are essentially free TP. Finally you aren't spending any TP when Pacified.

In the worst case scenario if a DRK had Blood weapon on 100% of the time (obviously you cannot) from the base 2.5 he'd go to 2.25. Same 190 cost, He would pay 28.148148148148148148148148148148 but only has the base 20 regen to a Warriors 23.3. Now that was hypothetical because Blood weapon doesn't have 100% up keep.
If we had 180/6.75 however we suddenly hit 26.6 tp spend per second (or well 6.6 TP spend per second after the 20 TP regen per second)
Divine the 1000 TP by 6.6, 150 seconds. Aka if a DRK had permanent blood weapon it be 2 minutes and 30 seconds (we don't).

A very *simple* means of slowing down Drks TP expenditure while still maintaining the value of TP support skills, is to make Syphon strike 50 TP. Frankly you could do similar with the PLD's Riot blade by putting it to 55 TP for instance.

All that being said math wise, I still don't know if making TP easier to hold is the direction to go. There is 4 classes that provide TP to allies. Naturally things like MP and TP regen are to remain valuable.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Back to your list of CD, it's more like that :

Nope. Being able to stack Inner Beast with other CDs does not mean WAR wins. Not always at least. Lets not pretend WAR has the monopoly on stacking CDs. Remember that DRK has two 60s recast CDs with longer durations, one of which can easily be paired with other mitigations for any given tank buster or even both of them, as 90% of the most infamous tank busters in this game just so happen occur 55-65 seconds apart. LOL@the Odin example. Remember also that its not just the tankbuster that matters but preceding and subsequent auto attack/aoe/whatever damage and longer duration cooldowns help balance this out. I.E. in T13 for first phase Flattens and final phase Akh Morns you can easily have both Dark Dance and Dark Mind up for ALL OF THEM, before actually using a bonafide mitigation tool like Shadowskin/Vengeance/Rampart etc. The same goes for Discoid in A4. 1min apart. DA Dark Mind + Whatever else you want to make your healer's job easier. tl;dr The comparison is flawed, DRK has short recast CDs too, that it can stack and have up for 95% of tankbusters, try again.

People think PLD is far more sturdy because it blocks more damage in between tankbusters, thus requiring less heal overall.
But, when mitigation really matters, WAR has absolutely no drawback, except when when you compare the aftermath of Hallowed Ground vs Holmgang.

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stuff in bold.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

stuff in bold.

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Dark Dance is worse than Inner Beast, and only works on physical hits. Dark Mind is only better than Inner Beast with Dark Arts but only works on magical hits.