Low-manning dungeons should be rewarding!

Hey there! Recently re-subbed after having quit over a year back because a number of frustrations became too much to bear. Motivated by the fact that a friend of mine I haven't been able to game with in a while started playing this again, I decided to give it a second chance, re-rolled on a new server for a fresh start and everything. Going to work really hard to not think too much about the things that pissed me off and drove me away (mostly the horrible game design of housing and glamours >_<) and just log in whenever and enjoy playing with my husband and our mutual friend.

That brings me to this, my one failure... D:

One thing I recalled from past reading to keep up with the game was that SE had implemented a way to enter dungeons without the full party size of 4. I was thrilled to see that, as I'm one of those gamers who likes to just try things because I can. I really chafe against restrictions that tell me, "No, you cannot because we say so". I pointed the feature out to my husband, and we both got super excited, as one of the things we like to do to keep leveling interesting in some MMOs is low-man dungeons. It's a way for us to get challenge out of content that doesn't usually have any challenge (unless it's WildStar dungeons.. XD). For example, back when we played WoW many years ago, we created a pair of characters and leveled them almost entirely by just chain 2-manning all the dungeons in the game. We 2-manned every single 5-man content from Ragefire Chasm to Halls of Reflection (yes). Definitely more engaging and challenging than running stuff with a full group, and it was super fun to boot. The level 60 BC dungeons especially got very difficult with only 2 people. xD

Anyway, we were clearly thrilled at the prospect of doing this - or at least attempting it - while leveling our rerolled characters. The leveling dungeons in this game aren't really challenging at all, so we figure what better way to keep ourselves engaged than create challenge?

But then a fellow guild member informed us that if you low-man a dungeon, you don't get experience.

I really don't understand this design decision at all. The guildie who told us this seemed to honestly fear that if low-manning rewarded experience, then no one would ever be able to get dungeon groups again. That seems like just an absurd fear to have, as it certainly wasn't a problem in any other MMO you can do this in. We would be tackling the content in a more challenging way, and taking away a huge chunk of the reason for going in there in the first place (to level) seems really counterintuitive.

I will hope that someone may see this thread and perhaps push to change this design in a future patch. :/ Please, let us receive all of the experience points due to us for going through a dungeon, regardless of how many people are in the instance.

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Some concerns brought up and my rebuttals:

Concerns:

1. Level-capped players shouldn't be able to just carry lowbies for levels.

Fair enough. The solution to that is to either eliminate the XP rewards for all if someone of a higher level than the dungeon enters, or scale as PArcher suggested:

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If they implement xp rewards for undersizing dungeons, then have to scale it based on the people in the party. Someone up to 5 levels over sync? 1/2 penalty to xp. 5+ levels over? Gain 1/4 or less xp. Lv60 present? No xp.

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2. If you give people the option to go in with less and get XP, no one will queue up for DF.

To which I say, this is a made-up concern that won't have any real impact. It's not something that happens in any other MMO (who all generally allow you to enter dungeons however you want), and I can't imagine why FFXIV would be different.

3. Bots!

They're going in with parties of 4 anyway, and why would a bot want to do something that would be harder? That'll just end up with dead bots.

The no experiance is to prevent you from getting a lvl 60 to 1 shot everything in the dungeon for fast and easy exp.

Basicly either you do the dungeon the normal way with normal rewards, or you do it the fast and easy way with no rewards.

If you dont like long duty finder ques you can always preform a full party.

Low-manning a dungeon is rewarding- you still get all the loot from treasure boxes. You don't get EXP so that you can't just faceroll every dungeon from 15 to 50 with a level 60 friend flailing at anything remotely hostile.

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Originally Posted by Devils_Lawyer

The no experiance is to prevent you from getting a lvl 60 to 1 shot everything in the dungeon for fast and easy exp.

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Easiest solution to prevent that is to cut XP rewards if there's someone in there who is higher level. If you go in at-level, you should get at-level XP rewards, regardless of the number of people.

We don't want to do it "fast and easy". It's already super easy with 4 at-level people, hence wanting to test our mettle with just 2 to keep our leveling experience engaging.

The no gil/no xp is so the RMT won't have it even easier.

If they implement xp rewards for undersizing dungeons, then have to scale it based on the people in the party. Someone up to 5 levels over sync? 1/2 penalty to xp. 5+ levels over? Gain 1/4 or less xp. Lv60 present? No xp.

Precisely, PArcher!

There is another option you might enjoy that syncs you at the dungeon's intended item level. I know it works at level 50 content, but I'm not sure for levels below that.

That mode is there for the challenge.

But the whole point is that we want the challenge while we're leveling. No point in doing it the boring way to 50 and then going back. :S I just don't really see how it hurts anyone to reward people with at-level XP if they enter a dungeon at the proper level. Just cut the reward away if a higher level person enters with them, so you don't get people asking for carries to level their lowbies.

It is to help other with clearing the dungeon and to farm gear for yourself.

The feature not only allow you to enter the dungeon with less than 4 people, it also don't synch you down. Exp reward would be too much in this case.
Maybe SE can change it that exp get added if also the "minimum level" option is activated (if this option also synch the character level and not only the item level. I have it not tested yet).

Low-manning dungeons lets new players run through them with a single friend for MSQ progress though. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Easiest solution to prevent that is to cut XP rewards if there's someone in there who is higher level. If you go in at-level, you should get at-level XP rewards, regardless of the number of people.

We don't want to do it "fast and easy". It's already super easy with 4 at-level people, hence wanting to test our mettle with just 2 to keep our leveling experience engaging.

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This is not a bad idea. But I don't know that it's really a good enough idea to implement. Ideally, it would be great to have options for every possible sort of play style! I am rather skeptical, though, that there would be enough people interested in this feature of running dungeons short man at level to justify putting development time and money into it.

It seems like a good idea. But there are a ~lot~ of good ideas, and limited resources available.

And ties up the instance servers while excluding those icky strangers.

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Originally Posted by Xairos

And ties up the instance servers while excluding those icky strangers.

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Oh nvm that point.

Poor husband...

I was a tad disappointed by the no exp thing, regardless of participants being of-level for the dungeon. I get, however, that it's probably for the aspect to keep some appeal to using DF pugs, so whatever.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If they implement xp rewards for undersizing dungeons, then have to scale it based on the people in the party. Someone up to 5 levels over sync? 1/2 penalty to xp. 5+ levels over? Gain 1/4 or less xp. Lv60 present? No xp.

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This actually isn't a very difficult thing to do, since it already exists outside of dungeons. If anything, they could just set it so that anyone over the 2+ level range present will negate dungeon exp entirely (or however many levels it is for ARR dungeons with normal DF queuing).

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

The no gil/no xp is so the RMT won't have it even easier.

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RMT generally have a 4-man bot party anyway. Position haxx can carry you pretty damn far.

Low manning for xp is the whole reason I would use this feature, taking out xp just makes it an useless waste of time for me at least.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Low manning for xp is the whole reason I would use this feature, taking out xp just makes it an useless waste of time for me at least.

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The reason I'd use it would be to get guaranteed drops if I'm looking for a particular minion drop, glamour farming, or if there's an expensive building mat that comes in chests there. There are enough ways to get xp in level appropriate dungeons as is.

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Originally Posted by Ramien

The reason I'd use it would be to get guaranteed drops if I'm looking for a particular minion drop, glamour farming, or if there's an expensive building mat that comes in chests there. There are enough ways to get xp in level appropriate dungeons as is.

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And not only to farm gear for glamour, but also to level up your desynthesis.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If they implement xp rewards for undersizing dungeons, then have to scale it based on the people in the party. Someone up to 5 levels over sync? 1/2 penalty to xp. 5+ levels over? Gain 1/4 or less xp. Lv60 present? No xp.

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Exactly. Please add it.

I can understand exactly why it doesn't give EXP: if it did, you'd get everyone running dungeons that way to level instead of DFing it and being matched with PUGs who also need to run the dungeon or trial. It would be terrible for new players who don't have people to queue up with because it would cut down on the number of available slots in DF.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I can understand exactly why it doesn't give EXP: if it did, you'd get everyone running dungeons that way to level instead of DFing it and being matched with PUGs who also need to run the dungeon or trial. It would be terrible for new players who don't have people to queue up with because it would cut down on the number of available slots in DF.

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As I said in my OP, this doesn't happen in any other game. I can't imagine why FFXIV would be different.

I like the idea others have said in this thread about scaling xp reduction. I'll add it into my OP!

You want reward for rushing trough dungeon in 2 minutes and 3-shot killing mobs? How about no? :D
People still get loot + achievements (in coil), sounds about enough for me.

Really you should reword what you are asking for instead of asking to change the rules of undersized parties, you are better off saying:
"I want the option to enter a dungeon with fewer players but still have the same rules as a duty finder group."
So if you do enter with a level 60 they will get synced the same way they would in DF, you are then doing the exact same content as DF just with less people.

You can then change the name of undersized party rules to:
Rollfaceonkeyboardeasymode4.0archancemageoptimalrotation!

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

You want reward for rushing trough dungeon in 2 minutes and 3-shot killing mobs? How about no? :D
People still get loot + achievements (in coil), sounds about enough for me.

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If you paid attention to my post, you would realize that's not what I want at all.

We want to get xp when we low-man a dungeon on our at level characters.

Totally get what the OP wants and don't understand the objections, which seem to stem from folks not really reading what she's after? No, of course you shouldn't be able to run through Qarn by yourself as a level 57 and get 3K XP per kill; that's ridiculous and no one suggested it. She (and I, and my friends, actually -- we've talked about this a lot) want the challenge of 2- and 3-manning dungeons, appropriately level-synced and with any ilvl restrictions intact.

I, too, was excited to see the addition of the undersized party option and then read the deets and went "awwww".

I love the way it is now. It's purely for a fun distraction. The first day it came out, the first run I did as a MCH was going into Satasha with my GF who had just unlocked DRK for the first time as well. We did a quick run with just the two of us while getting used to our new skills and play styles. Even without any reward below low level gear, it was still a blast....

I recently went back in and soloed that dungeon as a lvl 60 MCH right after I did a roulette and got stuck there just to see the comparison between running it synced as a party with running it solo unsynced. With a DF party speed running it, we got through in about 15-20 minutes I think. Soloing it as a 60 and stopping every few feet to talk to people in my FC and LS chats, I got through in eight minutes. Sometimes it's fun to see the drastic differences between things like that....

Bottom line. Nothing needs to be changed. It does exactly what it's intended to do. Nothing more, and nothing less....

It's rewarding enough.

the fact that i can go in and roflstomp the first boss of qarn HM solo without dipping under half health as a DRK in almost ten minutes is a victory in it's own.

also,

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This option has no effect on the strength of enemies or mechanics in the duties it is applied to. Players will still receive treasure rewards, first time completion bonuses, and experience points upon completion of duty when using this option. However, players will not receive experience points or items from enemies that appear prior to boss encounters. Spirit bond and soul resonance cannot be gained when using this option.

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you still get exp from bosses, just not the trash. so you can do this unsynced and still gain exp, you just won't get the exp from the filler pulls in between bosses. i think mid bosses give exp, but not sure. final bosses do.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Bottom line. Nothing needs to be changed. It does exactly what it's intended to do. Nothing more, and nothing less....

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Bottom line: I am happy so anyone else's thoughts, feelings, and suggestions are invalid.

No one is suggesting replacing the ability to do a dungeon un-synced for comparison's sake, to get a FC mate through an MSQ, or whatever else. We want the ability to do them, level-appropriate, in addition.

I'm essentially in the same boat as the OP. I like doing things with my friends and we're few in number. Going into a dungeon with two or three, level appropriate, should not take away your XP. Yes, if you enter at a high level you shouldn't get XP. Of course not. That's ridiculous. Going in at a disadvantage should not penalize your xp gain.