Should Defiance affect ALL healing received?

As I am sure many of you are aware, actions that increase the healing input/output via healing magic (Defiance, Convalescence, Mantra, Divine Seal, Fey Illumination, Dissipation) do not affect healing abilities, or really anything besides healing spells.

Prior to Heavensward, Defiance and Shield Oath (Grit) were pretty much on par with one other in terms of their base effect. That is, 20% damage reduction is equal to, in effect, 25% more HP and 25% more healing. While Defiance only has 20% more healing, rather than 25%, it's about equal.

Now, with the inclusion of multiple potency-based healing abilities (Lustrate, Indomitability, Asylum, Assize, Tetragrammaton, Essential Dignity, Collective Unconscious), Defiance has fallen a bit behind. Shield Oath and Grit, however, do receive more effective healing from any and all potency-based healing sources.

Do you think that Defiance's base effect should be, or is supposed to be, weaker than Shield Oath's and Grit's, in this fashion?

Furthermore, if you're interested, how do you feel about other actions that affect healing input/output? Should those affect non-spell potency-based healing as well?

Discuss.

Yes, it should at least affect all incoming healing spells and abilities.

Warriors should not be strictly worse than the other two tanks when it comes to receiving Emergency healing. This is an extremely poor choice.

There's literally no reason for them not to, as Defiance is meant to be an equivalent to ShO/Grit.

First thing came to mind after changes was warrior OT on T7 savage adds.. but can do unsync now.

It's a nerf, but WARs will be able to live with it. Tanks are different, WAR is weaker in some aspects and stronger then others. The ability to seamlessly stance dance without breaking combo is amazing and WAR Dps is unrivalled. Storms eye/path also mean that WAR isn't going anywhere, still the best tank in the game.

We also have our own emergency heal in equilibrium and only tank that can cross class second wind. We'll manage.

Yes, Defiance should be equal to the other tank stances. PLD and DRK both get healed for more by every single healing ability. Convalescence, Mantra etc. don't need to be changed to do the same, but Defiance needs it so that it's not harder to heal WARs (even if it's not a huge difference).

Yes, I don't see any good reason why it shouldn't. Convalescence should work on these abilities too.

Having to make such a distinction between different healing skills is pretty silly as is. Regardless of balance purposes, it should be changed for the sake of consistency at least.

Yeah I hate the difference between healing abilities and skills because it means that things that I'd normally think of boosting all my healing actually only boost some of my healing, but I never considered how it makes warriors get less effective healing from emergency abilities now.

I never really realized that. I have a SCH to 60 and that's why i exp difficulty healing lv 60 WARs when that problem was non-existent pre-HW.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I never really realized that. I have a SCH to 60 and that's why i exp difficulty healing lv 60 WARs when that problem was non-existent pre-HW.

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That was the only healing nerf sch's recieved pets got theit heal out cut by roughly a 3rd. The abilites being unaffected by healing buffs just feels like insult to injury.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

It's a nerf, but WARs will be able to live with it. Tanks are different, WAR is weaker in some aspects and stronger then others. The ability to seamlessly stance dance without breaking combo is amazing and WAR Dps is unrivalled. Storms eye/path also mean that WAR isn't going anywhere, still the best tank in the game.

We also have our own emergency heal in equilibrium and only tank that can cross class second wind. We'll manage.

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except it isnt :P

Yes it should. Defiance is already weaker than ShO/Grit.

The problem with this is, that it affects each healer different. With SCH being hit the hardest.

Edit: And Square saying "working as intended" is just BS. This is clearly an oversight.

Edit 2: To make that clear, all healing buffs should affect healing abilities.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

And Square saying "working as intended" is just BS. This is clearly an oversight.

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This is what concerns me the most. They did mention that they may re-evaluate during/after Alexander (Savage), but I honestly feel like that's too late. I don't get the impression that they intend for Defiance to be that much weaker, in base effect, than Shield Oath and Grit.

Personally, I'm okay with other healing input/output modifiers only affecting healing magic, but Defiance's healing increase is, as far as I can tell, intended to be the equivalent to Shield Oath's/Grit's damage reduction in terms of its effect on the tank's sustainability through HP recovery. But it's not.

Based on the recent live letter, I'm not sure if they understood this distinction (that is, why Defiance, specifically, was brought up) or not. I would certainly hope so.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Prior to Heavensward, Defiance and Shield Oath (Grit) were pretty much on par with one other in terms of their base effect. That is, 20% damage reduction is equal to, in effect, 25% more HP and 25% more healing. While Defiance only has 20% more healing, rather than 25%, it's about equal.

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Sorry, I don't follow the this reasoning. How does 20% damage reduction translate into 25% more healing (healing received, I'm guessing)?

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

Sorry, I don't follow the this reasoning. How does 20% damage reduction translate into 25% more healing (healing received, I'm guessing)?

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Let's assume we have a benevolent White Mage using Cure II, which restores 2'000 HP (2'400 because of Defiance's 20% healing bonus) because they're a scrub in i100 gear or something. The tanks are also down to half HP.

Paladins would go from 4'000 HP (50%) to 6'000 HP (75%) with a Cure II cast.
Warriors would go from 5'000 HP (50%) to 7'400 HP (74%) with a Cure II cast.

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Something along the lines of that. It would be more appropriate to say that healing spells are more effective on Paladins (and by extension, Dark Knights) due to them having damage reduction instead of 20% increased healing.

Also, to note, that example was used with both tanks having 8k base HP. I just lazily quoted one of my earlier posts on Warrior vs Paladin. :p

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Yeah I hate the difference between healing abilities and skills because it means that things that I'd normally think of boosting all my healing actually only boost some of my healing, but I never considered how it makes warriors get less effective healing from emergency abilities now.

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I think this is a valid argument, however WAR's do not have many downsides right now. Honestly, they seem a little OP, and this is a subtle but interesting way of trying to balance them. I think that your essential statement is correct, but that WARs need a nerf, and in absence of both happening, things are pretty okay right now.

No it's not a good way to balance WARs. This only really affects Scholars, since they are the only job that uses abilities in their base healing kit.

Edit: And WAR is still behind DRK and PLD in terms of healing efficiency. Don't know how that translates to OP to you.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

And WAR is still behind DRK and PLD in terms of healing efficiency. Don't know how that translates to OP to you.

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It's pretty simple: There's more to tanking than getting healed.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

No it's not a good way to balance WARs. This only really affects Scholars, since they are the only job that uses abilities in their base healing kit.

Edit: And WAR is still behind DRK and PLD in terms of healing efficiency. Don't know how that translates to OP to you.

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Asylum, Assize, Tetragrammaton, Lustrate and Essential Dignity are all abilities, not spells. WAR receives noticeably less healing from all of those compared to PLD/DRK, which is hardly fair.

It should probably affect everything except Equilibrium. Also it should really just be 25%.