Nanamo & Teledji - story discussion [SPOILERS! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!]

So yeah... (Putting my first post in spoiler tags to avoid people reading spoilers by hovering their mouse on the thread title)

(Edit: Bleh, got the wrong lalafell name. I meant Lolorito)

First of all, totally called it that she was not dead but kept in dead like state! *cough* Sorry...

Anyway, I'm sure people have their things they want to say about this. So I hereby declare the need for a discussion thread. Because I'm sure some people out there thought this was poor writing. (As was already suggested in the pre-3.0 nanamo thread if they went this route.)

I was a bit dissapointed how fast the entire thing got "resolved". Now I'm putting resolved between quotes, because I have this huge gut feeling that we've only scratched the surface on that storyline part. And that it was only added to prepare for the upcoming 3.x story patches.

Things that still bother me and leaves me thinking that we're far from done with Lolorito. Or are just huge plotholes.

- Lolorito looking annoyed at the end of the 2.x storyline about something. Clearly something didn't go as planned.
- Omega weapon case closed? Highly unlikely.
- Mention prior to the "nanamo rescue" about a huge supply of that sleeping drug being ported in. (My memory might be fuzy on that part but I think that was one of their leads. Correct me if I'm wrong.) Which is now either a giant plot hole. Because why bring in such a supply if they were planning on waking her.

I'll admit that I will be sorely dissapointed if everything did get resolved in the matter that it did. Because Lolorito reasons left even me dumbfounded in front of my screen with a "Really?! That was the entire plot reason? Who thought of this?"

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Originally Posted by Vydos

So yeah... (Putting my first post in spoiler tags to avoid people reading spoilers by hovering their mouse on the thread title)

(Edit: Bleh, got the wrong lalafell name. Why do I always forget his name! *goes searching*)

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Yep it's Lolorito you want to talk about. Teledji has been cut in half and will not factor in anymore.

Between Before the Fall and Heavensward, I put myself out there a bit by making a judgment and throwing my lot in with the, "But it'd be bad storytelling!" crowd (as I did when it appeared Louisoix was back, though I think they toed that line beautifully, in the end). For that reason, I feel kind of professionally obligated in a way to organize my final thoughts on it, lol.

<takes a deep breath and puts on his tophat>

I'm not going to be lame and walk back on my previous comments; the use of the "death-like slumber" trope was pretty weak, imho. However, having seen the story play out, I would now say that it's not the writing, but the pacing that led to my disappointment, and this is mostly just speaking as someone who played during 2.55 and through 3.00. Playing the Death-is-Cheap card isn't an invalid option, but the way they played it (capitalizing on it as a conclusion and escalation of uncertainty, only to take a short time-out from Ishgard to say PSYCHE! in 3.0) invalidates a lot of the impact, for me. In retrospect, what we thought was a big ending is just a benign cliffhanger, and just when I was praising the Thal's balls it took to do go through with it.

HOWEVER, the expansion is fantastic, overall, and if they had to use a Disney death, this is much closer to best than worst-case scenario, imho.

To future players, that plot arc will be a transition, not a temporary conclusion, and I don't think the structure will appear weak to them.

And then they'll get to the Vault...

But I won't ramble more than I already have. What's done is done; I'm movin' on!




P.S. Speaking of the deathlike-slumber drug trope, the story hinted that the potion used was a creation of the former ALC guildmaster, which really set off my spideymoosey-senses. In 1.0, said ALC guildmaster's son, Damielliot, was plagued by bouts of irresistible sleep that would put him out for ever-increasing spans. Was Faustigeant drugging his own son...!?

Loloritho's goal was to have Raubhan kill Teledji in blind rage, but sadly Ilberd decided to make the situation worse by agetating Raubahn even more.

He probably also wanted to keep Raubhan, the Scions and the Warrior of Light in custody long enough for him to dig up the Omega Weapon without any major distractions.

It didn't surprise me (and some others) that there's a high possibility that Nanamo's poison was to knock her unconscious. But still, I am pleasantly surprised that Lolorito/ Teledji was able to find a backup ruler in the form of a Hyur (her maid?) from the Thorne line.

I love and hate it at the same time because Lolorito would have gotten away with it in both cases: If the Scions and WoL were captured then he can kill off Nanamo and install the Hyur Thorne as a puppet ruler ... but since that failed he came up with this plan instead.

He played everyone well and I REALLY hope we can get rid of him.

Lolorito should not get off the hook for free with this one, his little plot has lead to the possible deaths of the Scions, and to Y'shtola's current condition.

It was inconclusively resolved. Lolorito essentially said "Psych!" and got away with it.

I'd be fine with that, except he sicced the Braves and Blades on us after Teledji was downed anyway, plus I have a hard time believing the toxin in Nanamo's drink was a sleeping drug after she was choking like that.

... whatever. The rest was good. Hope we find the other Scions soon.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

plus I have a hard time believing the toxin in Nanamo's drink was a sleeping drug after she was choking like that.

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It does seem odd, but remember that the whole switcharoo was to fool Teledji and the PC. If she would have just passed out, it would have been a lot more suspicious. It's not out of the realm of possibility that another agent was added to the concoction that caused muscle spasms and such.

I didn't like the fact of how swiftly they resolved the matter. I mean granted I liked how we got to kick ilberd and company's butts. I'm really hoping they go back to everything cause right now lolorito has raubahn by the proverbial balls and i don't really like that

Personally I feel the whole Ul'dah arc in 3.0 was very weak and still as completely contrived as it's begining. Every time the questline took me away from Ishgard I was like "Really?! You want me to leave now?!". I actually kinda wish they had held off to 3.1 for the resolution of the banquet arc, but I understand they needed to resolve it to end 3.0 on the high note of Ishgard joining the Alliance.

I do like Nanamo but the fact that nothing actually changed after all of the Ul'dah drama in 2.0+ has left an even more bitter taste in my mouth than at the 2.55 release (and I was quite bitter at the time). The only things I did like about the Ul'dah arc was the shout out to the 1.0 Alchemist storyline, and that Dewlala actually spoke.

Thankfully, I feel the rest of the 3.0 storyline more than makes up for it. Yes, even Moogle Hell and the Vault.

The fact that they pulled another "psych!" with Niddhogg and the Dragonsong War erks me a bit, even though I figured something like that was coming. At least at the end of 3.0 there has been actual change in Ishgard politically.

Although I agree this isn't the end of it. I really do hope we/Nanamo/Rauban/Pippin/Someone manages to give Lolorito his just deserts.

For me it wasn't cheap writing at all it was a brilliant political maneuver to survive, I mean having an escape plan for worst case scenarios plus contingency plans so that worst case scenario doesn't happen.

If I was as ingenious as lolorito I would keep nanamo alive and keep Raubahn close, not a dead empress trying to make new connections with the most probably unstable new one and an escaped ex-champion gladiator ex-general of a grand company who has a ton of friends/connections to making future transactions/movements a pain and possible losing the long game of politics.

I know it went all like Psych! I was kidding lol lets be friends again. But it is more like closing act 2 in the least chaotic way where you make a few moves and there is more gain than working harder to maintain what you have.

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Originally Posted by Waffilicious

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I agree Lolorito is too damm brilliant to make some high risks. He cares about money and a civil war with the orther Gc wouldnt help him. It was Teledji who wanted to risk everything and was thinking withouth reason the consequenses of his acts.
Thats most probably why Lorolito was like angry at the end, despiting that everything went perfectly for him, despite Teledji was dead, he could have being "worried" what kind of reprecusions would have brought on a near future. Maybe he was thinking that, the knowing that the WoL scaped, he will encourage the orthers GC leaders to go againts U'ldah? just a posibility

It honestly felt like Lolorito was cutting his losses when the Ul'dah storyline resolved itself. He held all the cards, but he couldn't do anything with them, because if he made a move, he couldn't be certain of the reactions of Gridania, Limsa Lominsa, or the Garlean Empire. It must've been bittersweet for him, to have all the power, and realize he couldn't do a thing with it. In the end, he removed Teledji Adeledji as a rival, gains kudos for protecting the Sultana from a legitimate assassination attempt, and has a little something over Rauban too.

If he were plotting something, my guess would be that the Sultana is an imposter, and will be a puppet dancing to his strings. The real Sultana may indeed be alive (thus the shipment of alchemical supplies designed to keep a person in a coma/long-period-sleep alive, rather than dying to malnutrition), but I do think it would be more interesting if she were actually dead, sad as it would be.

This was really really dumb. Nanamo is my favourite character so sure her being alive is nice but it was cheap with the way they ended the ARR storyline with all this drama and a death of a beloved character and then some. It cheapens the way players felt about it and the sacrifices made because now we know some people returned we know the rest will too. The only person I expect to stay dead after HW is Haurchefant because such a huge deal was made about his death. Lady Iceheart sacrificed herself for us but after the scene nobody even spoke about it again. Why? Because she'll probably be back later. Scions? We know they'll all be back.

If you have so much drama and a big death scene like that going back on it just makes you look dumb. It's freakin Clannad all over again. "We will make you sad with all these death scenes then make up some stupid get out clause so everyone lives happily ever after" and you just think "What was the point of even having a sad scene?" Fake death scenes are about the dumbest idea in writing. Now death means nothing. No reason to give a crap. Nanamo being alive and Ul'Dah just returning to normal makes me wonder what the point of that ridiculously long ending scene was.

Her magically being alive really pissed me off. I wanted me and Raubahn to go in there, kick ass, and take over. Then after the traitorous syndicate leaders were put to the sword, then Ul'dah is made in to a republic as Nanamo intended. Also, I'm pissed at Raubahn for killing Teledji, I wanted that pleasure for myself after the things the little bastard said after he orchestrated nanamo's assassination and gloated about it.

I'm really hoping it turns out some how that Nanamo isn't actually the true Nanamo. I know it's a long shot given how they've let Raubahn get really close it just seems too convenient that Lolorito would bother not pressing to have him kept imprisoned. At the end of 2.55 Lolorito was shown to be a very sinister character. So obviously he's not done with whatever he's planning yet. I'd guess at least if Nanamo isn't a fake she may have at least programmed by Lolorito to do something in the future. Lolorito's still the leader of the blue bastard traitors and I doubt that Ilbred isn't working for him still.

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Originally Posted by Orson_Dara

I'm really hoping it turns out some how that Nanamo isn't actually the true Nanamo. I know it's a long shot given how they've let Raubahn get really close it just seems too convenient that Lolorito would bother not pressing to have him kept imprisoned. At the end of 2.55 Lolorito was shown to be a very sinister character. So obviously he's not done with whatever he's planning yet. I'd guess at least if Nanamo isn't a fake she may have at least programmed by Lolorito to do something in the future. Lolorito's still the leader of the blue bastard traitors and I doubt that Ilbred isn't working for him still.

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he is not, he is done with the crystal braves. He said it hymself

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

he is not, he is done with the crystal braves. He said it hymself

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I don't think I would believe anything he said at this point. Even so if he's out for the liberation of Ala Mihgo then how is he going to get that without powerful allies. I'd say he'd be ripe for a redemption storyline but it'd have to be a hell of turn around for me not wanting to stick an Axe in his face. Not only that he's just not a fleshed out character he's as generic as they come. Forever a lackey imo that's being manipulated by his impossible goal.

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Originally Posted by Orson_Dara

I don't think I would believe anything he said at this point. Even so if he's out for the liberation of Ala Mihgo then how is he going to get that without powerful allies. I'd say he'd be ripe for a redemption storyline but it'd have to be a hell of turn around for me not wanting to stick an Axe in his face. Not only that he's just not a fleshed out character he's as generic as they come. Forever a lackey imo that's being manipulated by his impossible goal.

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Dont speculate over to much, even if he is not trusfull i dont see any evidence of why he would lie on that point. So yea he is done with the crystal braves

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Originally Posted by Orson_Dara

I'm really hoping it turns out some how that Nanamo isn't actually the true Nanamo.

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I started thinking about that (how I'd feel if I had to factor a big shift in again). At that point, I don't even know how I'd critique it, anymore!

Seeing the deathlike-slumber claim in practice, my gripe is just that they spent the interim between the "Season 1 finale" and "Season 2 premier" cashing in so hard on all the things that come from a character death (the ramping-up of the plot's intensity and depth, the excitement of a new expansion, our feeeeelz) without actually paying for it with with said character's life. It's a pacing thing and structure thing, mostly, that re-writes a powerful ending.

We wouldn't exactly be back on the level, pacing-wise, if we negate the negation, we'd just be playing Rabbit Season - Duck Season. It would balance the scales, plot-wise, but my consolation now has been getting to see Nanamo's character development not severed at the moment of its highest potential. <goes crosseyed> Probably better if I just remove my analysis/critique hat on all things "The Death(s)[?] of Nanamo Ul Namo" from here on out regardless of the outcome...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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They are not gonna over complicated this even more. Namamo is back, is her( the real one ) and everything will keep is course. We can speculate more, gotta wait for 3.1 !

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

They are not gonna over complicated this even more. Namamo is back, is her( the real one ) and everything will keep is course. We can speculate more, gotta wait for 3.1 !

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Nanamo may be back, but Lolorito essentially got away with drugging her and seizing control of the city. Raubahn may be back in control of the Immortal Flames, but the Brass Blades haven't had their power reduced at all, and they had essentially months to solidify their power, even with interference from Raubahn's son and the Immortal Flames officers.

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

They are not gonna over complicated this even more. Namamo is back, is her( the real one ) and everything will keep is course. We can speculate more, gotta wait for 3.1 !

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Ya I believe you are correct but my thought is just wishful thinking. A manchurian candidate kind of story would work ok for some proper pay off. As Lyst says and as I previously speculated though Lolorito isn't done plotting. %$#@ is going to go down in Ul'dah again and hopefully we'll actually get a chance to bring about proper justice. At the very least I wouldn't be surprised if some of the scions are actually still imprisoned by him as leverage against us.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

/snip

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Quite honestly moose I wouldn't be surprised if they went that route. I mean they already went through the whole common plot of poison the person in charge and blame it on the hero route. When she woke up the first thing I said was, "That's not Nanamo." I don't know why she seems a bit off in looks *shrugs* though that in on itself could be because of the slight upgrades they did (I'm on ps4 sooooo). I'll just have to wait and see if they touch upon it more, if they even do. LOL hell isn't the Fantasia that we get in the lore of the game? Please let me know on that.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

Nanamo may be back, but Lolorito essentially got away with drugging her and seizing control of the city. Raubahn may be back in control of the Immortal Flames, but the Brass Blades haven't had their power reduced at all, and they had essentially months to solidify their power, even with interference from Raubahn's son and the Immortal Flames officers.

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I never said that the situation is over, ofcurse is not over lol. But we can do nothing just to wait, strating to make lots of scpeculations and crasy theories are gonna makes as ve even more confused and paranoid. Pls not the same as 2.55 again ><

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Isn't the Fantasia that we get in the lore of the game? Please let me know on that.

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Ish. Fantasia is one of those things that's so obviously a game mechanic item that they don't want you to really think about it despite any tongue-in-cheek attempts to explain it away. Every now and then, you can pose a question like this to the lore team just to see how they choose to crack wise about the subject (as we recently did about Fat Chocobo's aerodynamics), but that's about as far as it goes.

The explanation that Koji Fox gave was that, obviously, lore-wise, you can't just make everybody able to change into anybody, or the abuse of it would be out of control and the world itself unravels. But everyone wants to change on some level, and sometimes you get that opportunity. Maybe you can change the way you look with a new haircut or a facelift, or change your identity itself with a new career or a new spouse. Oftentimes, however, people just aren't willing to make drastic changes to their lives because you risk things changing for the worse.

Fantasia gives you the courage you need to make those changes!

Then you sweep the whole "courage turns a female lalafell into a male roegadyn" thing right under the rug and accept it for what it is.

I assume that's why an NPC has never referenced its existence.

Well there goes my reasoning to turn female for Ayemeric...

To be serious though, damn if it was 100% in the lore then it would give more meaning to why they went into the fact of even mentioning on how Teledji had found another person who could take the throne and Lolorito still using them as well even though Adeledji is dead... Ah well I guess I'll just have to see what happens then.

I'm pretty sure this Ul'dah arc is making way for ala mhigo in the future and lolirito is plotting something about it.

Nanamo I think is the real one... Though Lolorito mentioned that Teledji had found someone with apparently a legitimate claim to the throne to replace Nanamo as his own personal puppet? I do wonder what happened to that plot point, or did I miss something/imagine it... I'd be surprised if anything further happens to Nanamo though, I jokingly expected Lolorito to have given Raubahn poison so he could get Raubahn to killer her and frame him, but I never really expected them to pull anything surprising the moment it was revealed that Nanamo was still alive (disappointed as to the lack of Heart Striker involvement though...), from that point it seemed like a pretty cut and dry "Lets restore normality" plot line...

As for Omega... I suspect we'll be using that to fight Nidhogg... Bahamut was one of the Celestial Seven before he was a Primal, and the Allag apparently killed him... I can smell the "Omega was built to subdue Bahamut... But not the Primal one!" reveal coming... I also suspect we'll be getting the aged old "Omega has to hunt and destroy Shinryu"; Nidhogg is back on the scene, one of his eyes perhaps contains an Ascian who'd just shown us the true power of the Echo to create Ascian Prime... I can see the same thing happening with Lahabrea and Nidhogg resulting in a Shinryu... Either way, now that Ishgard is back in the Eorzean Alliance they're going to have to have something to say about Omega and Carteneau, when it turns out that it was a device either built to disable a Dragon God, or simply a Dragon, the conclusion to use it to stop the crazed Dragon avatar or rage seems fairly obvious...

The whole Ul'dah plot feels tacked on, like they just needed something to drive the story of 2.1-2.55 with Gaius and Lahabrea out of the way and Thordan not yet involved. I really hated how - even though the Crystal Braves seemed like a dumb idea that was going to backfire - I still had to help Alphinaud create the company because we aren't allowed to say "No."

I hope the plot does begin to build up again, toward the retaking out Ala Mhigo, we still have Ilberd, Laurentius and Yuyuhase out there too, you can bet they will rear their heads again. So many strands are leading toward Ala Mhigo now.