Kind of wishing Bards had kept Healer LB.

The amount of Bards and Machinists I've seen using LB incorrectly is too high.

I've seen them wait until adds on a boss are dead THEN use it.

I've seen them kill trash and use it after all but a couple of mobs are dead.

I've seen them use LB as soon as it's up without even giving me time to use it.

I even had a bard tell me the other day that Bard LB does as much single target damage as melee LB.

It's sad :(

as a career bard i do miss my healer LB

Not going to lie, there've been a couple times since Heavensward where the cry of our Mumble has been "Healer LB--crap they're dead! Bard LB--oh. right. shit."

Same as when a DPS caster uses LB when there is a melee LB user in PT. No different to those players.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Same as when a DPS caster uses LB when there is a melee LB user in PT. No different to those players.

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And now we've got bards/machinists doing it too. Making a problem worse isn't a fix to the problem or justification for others who are part of the problem.

Besides, it may just be me, but I rarely have seen a caster waste LB.

I wouldn't worry. Melee are not immune to these things and in the end a mistimed Limit Break rarely amounts to much.

Besides that, there's a learning curve with anything. I'm sure more and more bards will get a handle on the limit break timing as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I wouldn't worry. Melee are not immune to these things and in the end a mistimed Limit Break rarely amounts to much.

Besides that, there's a learning curve with anything. I'm sure more and more bards will get a handle on the limit break timing as time goes on.

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Hopefully. I don't see why, if bards insist on using LB, that they've been waiting until the fewest amount of enemies possible are alive :x

If they know how AoE works, they should know a single target LB is best against a single target. Seems a lot of people don't. There shouldn't be a learning curve there.

Eventually the shinyness of the Ranged LB will wear off and it'll die down. I can understand those moments where Bards having the Healer LB could help out if both Healers are down, but usually by that point it seems the Bard is also down.

Bards are still excited to have their new LB, they've had the healing LB forever and now they can finally do damage. If I was a Bard/MCN main, I'd probably be pretty dang excited to and try to use it as often as possible.

Don't be so hard on them OP, I'm sure the excitement over LBs will die down sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by Selli

Bards are still excited to have their new LB, they've had the healing LB forever and now they can finally do damage. If I was a Bard/MCN main, I'd probably be pretty dang excited to and try to use it as often as possible.

Don't be so hard on them OP, I'm sure the excitement over LBs will die down sooner or later.

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If only it was just that :p

All the bards and machinists I've seen using LB AFTER adds are dead kind of makes me think it's not just about seeing the shiny new LB. They could have seen the shiny and hit multiple enemies, but instead they chose to use it to hit one enemy.

Besides, the most numerous culprits I've seen have been level 60s. By that level, they should know what their LB looks like and when to use it, and when not to use it.

And that person who said BRD/MCH LB does as much damage as melee...that shows a deep misunderstanding of how AoEs, much less LBs, work. And they were a 60!

Bard-design is suffering identity crisis.

Is it a DPS-Support, is it a Support-DPS, is it a DPS/Support, is it merely a DPS... SE doesn't even know.

WM was shoehorned in, it's clunky & doesn't mesh well with BRD's design.

They stole our free-mobility away which was the beloved niche of the Job to a great many.

They added phenomenal utility/support options to other Jobs yet only we get punished for ours (even when it's disabled!).

They try to appease us by giving us a "DPS Mode" stance ability which still doesn't bring us up to par with BLM/SMN when our songs are off.

Not only that, Yoshi-P even considers us a Support yet removes our Healer LB.

Identity Crisis. BRD needs heavy revision.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

Bard-design is suffering identity crisis.

Is it a DPS-Support, is it a Support-DPS, is it a DPS/Support, is it merely a DPS... WM was shoehorned in, it's clunky & doesn't mesh well with BRD's design.

They stole our mobility away which was the beloved niche of the Job to a great many.

They added phenomenal utility/support options to other Jobs yet only we get punished for ours.

Even Yoshi calls us a Support yet they try to appease us by giving us a "DPS Mode" stance ability which still doesn't bring us up to par with BLM/SMN when our songs are off.

Not only that, they consider us a Support yet remove our Healer LB.

Identity Crisis. BRD needs heavy revision.

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I'll miss the days of Bards being able to save groups from wipes. Now they just get a very narrow, low damage LB.

Indeed, I miss the day where you ended up having 2 BRd in a 4 man Duns. And when I asked for LB, realised we had 2 Brds, oh..shit!!!

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Originally Posted by Adire

Hopefully. I don't see why, if bards insist on using LB, that they've been waiting until the fewest amount of enemies possible are alive :x

If they know how AoE works, they should know a single target LB is best against a single target. Seems a lot of people don't. There shouldn't be a learning curve there.

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I find that If the way you treat other people is motivated chiefly by efficiency than you will never be happy and neither will the people around you. Different people have different ways of playing, different ways of thinking, and differing levels of ability, but always, without fail, no one is perfect. Life goes more smoothly by overlooking the little things than it does by getting the limit breaks just right.

Honestly... Archer should split into Bard or Ranger, with Bard getting a rework.

How many melee have I seen sit on the LB2/3 until they think its going to be enough to kill the boss (or just plain ignored that it exists) when they could have used it at any safe point before then rather than use it and complain they died because they were animation locked (and trust me you get those parties every once in a while where you probably could get 2+ LB's off)... Anyone can misuse the LB doesnt make it right but making it seem like you feel this is a bard or machinist issue isnt going to change the fact your going to occasionally get one of THOSE players regardless of class or LB type so brush it off and move on

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

Honestly... Archer should split into Bard or Ranger, with Bard getting a rework.

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Agree 100%....

I'm also mad the phys. ranged LB was designed as yet another plainly damaging LB.

Should've been like a raid-wide haste or something.

15/22.5/30% reduced recast times for 8 seconds at 50% reduced MP/TP costs? Mayhaps with 10/15/20% increased movement speed as well!

Rough figures, but you get the idea... they could've been so much more creative.

The only time this would be an issue at all would be in a random unorganized pug, where the content is typically so easy that what role uses their LB doesn't even matter anyways. Why is it an issue? The old bard LB was useless 99% of the time anyways, at least this one can be put to use in an organized group.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Indeed, I miss the day where you ended up having 2 BRd in a 4 man Duns. And when I asked for LB, realised we had 2 Brds, oh..shit!!!

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then maybe a better implementation of a damage LB to brd would to have it stay healer lb for full party content where it benefits from the LB3 rez, and for light party to have it as a damage LB where as LB3 can not be achieved in this content. then again the limit break in any light party content is mere convenience and only shaves seconds off an encounter. half the time its unnecessary or goes unused

This is one of these few situations that it'd be great if we sorted out having Personal LBs and then a Party-wide Greater LBs. Bards function as a DPS on a personal level but that always goes to the sidelines in favor for team-wide support. So it'd make perfect sense to give them a Personal LB that deals damage and their Greater LB could still utilize the healer's.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I find that If the way you treat other people is motivated chiefly by efficiency than you will never be happy and neither will be people around you. Different people have different ways of playing, different ways of thinking, and differing levels of ability, but always, without fail, no one is perfect. Life goes more smoothly by overlooking the little things than it does by getting the limit breaks just right.

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I don't think life lessons and overthinking are necessary here.

I just want bards and machinists to realize they're holding up the group that much more when they waste LB, that's all. :)

No need to get too deep or analyze the purpose of our lives and paths to happiness over this, it's just a game.

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Originally Posted by Yurimi

How many melee have I seen sit on the LB2/3 until they think its going to be enough to kill the boss (or just plain ignored that it exists) when they could have used it at any safe point before then rather than use it and complain they died because they were animation locked (and trust me you get those parties every once in a while where you probably could get 2+ LB's off)... Anyone can misuse the LB doesnt make it right but making it seem like you feel this is a bard or machinist issue isnt going to change the fact your going to occasionally get one of THOSE players regardless of class or LB type so brush it off and move on

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Bards LBing wrong wasn't such a big issue until they were given a damage LB. If you're going to LB as a bard, do it right please. And give melees a chance to do it right.

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Originally Posted by MisterLucie

The only time this would be an issue at all would be in a random unorganized pug, where the content is typically so easy that what role uses their LB doesn't even matter anyways. Why is it an issue? The old bard LB was useless 99% of the time anyways, at least this one can be put to use in an organized group.

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In an organized group, a bard still won't typically LB. Melee LB will still be typically used.

And it may not matter that much, but used right, LB can still shave time off a dungeon run for everyone. If a bard LBs a boss rather than a melee, everyone is going to spend that much more time there for no reason.

Unlike rotations and dps, which some people are better at than others, LB is one button. Knowing who should press it is not too much to ask of players I would hope...

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Originally Posted by Adire

Bards LBing wrong wasn't such a big issue until they were given a damage LB. If you're going to LB as a bard, do it right please. And give melees a chance to do it right.

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have you never been in a primal when both heals went down, brd was still alive with that last hope of rez limit break and a DRG or MNK believes they can save the day with an almighty single target LB3 praying just this once it diminishes 40% of bosses hp? people love that shiny button. nothing new here

What SE needs to do is add different Limit breaks you can set and give people a choice.

If bard wants to use a healing LB or a Damage LB put it on.

its good to have a choice. Though this might happen a little later down the road maybe.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

have you never been in a primal when both heals went down, brd was still alive with that last hope of rez limit break and a DRG or MNK believes they can save the day with an almighty single target LB3 praying just this once it diminishes 40% of bosses hp? people love that shiny button. nothing new here

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I don't recall condoning wrongful usage of LB by anyone? Please quote me if I'm recalling incorrectly :)

I actually support Bard having healer LB if that wasn't already evident from my title...

Instead of that, we now have more damage that can be wrongfully used.

Edit: And if you want to play this game, I can name some times when I've seen Bards and healers down and melee LB did save the day.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I don't recall condoning wrongful usage of LB by anyone?

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except you are pointing out brd/mch directly when this is not new. been done by all roles in not so efficient manners. in the end it does not really matter nor is it game breaking. i ran copperbell normal as drg many times LBing the spriggan @ the 2nd boss encounter because it doesnt break the game nor lose the fight

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

except you are pointing out brd/mch directly when this is not new. been done by all roles in not so efficient manners. in the end it does not really matter nor is it game breaking. i ran copperbell normal as drg many times LBing the spriggan @ the 2nd boss encounter because it doesnt break the game nor lose the fight

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Bards doing it is new....lol.

They couldn't do it before, now they can and often do. What's so hard about that to understand?

And I have to say, again, may be personal experience. But I've seen far more striking instances of Bards and Machinists misusing LB lately than melees or casters doing it :P

I actually don't ever think I've seen a caster wait until after adds are dead before LBing, it's usually when there are no adds in the first place or when there are adds. And usually even then they let melees do it. Can't say the same for bards and machinists though!


Oh and uhhh...lbing that spriggan that dies in like 2 hits. That says a lot....

Hint: You're better off lbing the trash right before or after.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Bards doing it is new....lol.

They couldn't do it before, now they can and often do. What's so hard about that to understand?

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so because a class which now has a different use for ur glorified damage button uses it just because; its forum worthy?
mind you other than my copperbell spriggans which were usually done premade or 3/4 premade and for the sake of having fun, im all for efficiency. but its just spilt milk. it happens. its always happened. it wont always be the case. sometimes you get to have your glory, sometimes people want you to share that bright yellow bar.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

so because a class which now has a different use for ur glorified damage button uses it just because; its forum worthy?
mind you other than my copperbell spriggans which were usually done premade or 3/4 premade and for the sake of having fun, im all for efficiency. but its just spilt milk. it happens. its always happened. it wont always be the case. sometimes you get to have your glory, sometimes people want you to share that bright yellow bar.

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Have you seen some of the threads on the forums?

I think my legitimate complaint about something trending in the community is pretty forum worthy compared to some of this stuff. Even not compared to some of it, seeing as this is community general discussion after all :)

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Originally Posted by Adire

I don't recall condoning wrongful usage of LB by anyone? Please quote me if I'm recalling incorrectly :)

I actually support Bard having healer LB if that wasn't already evident from my title...

Instead of that, we now have more damage that can be wrongfully used.

Edit: And if you want to play this game, I can name some times when I've seen Bards and healers down and melee LB did save the day.

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The Healer LB3 was fine for BRDs in Full Group content. It was a pain in light group content though when you ended up paired with another BRD and now with a MCH. In all the time I played I've only ever seen the BRD healing LB3 used once and it was still a wipe. Its almost useless.

As for the current situation and potential wasted LB3s I still see it happen all the time by all groups. I had a tank pop it during a dungeon fight two days ago. Its hardly like BRDS are uniquely abusing it. Plus its still not a complete waste when they do use it on a boss even if it is poorly timed. Your talking about wasted time but at most your talking about 1 to 2 minutes difference.

Give BRDs and MCH a break. They already have enough limits placed on them for being 'support'. Personally if they really want BRD and MCH to be real support I'd prefer them to actually develop that aspect of the class into something beyond being Mana and TP recharge stations. Other DPS get much more interesting support utility skills.

im just saying its being made into something bigger than it has to be. was morre so hoping this thread would be more so about the utility a dps with healer limit break could bring to a party and not over mis-use or someone stealing anothers thunder

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Originally Posted by Adire

I don't think life lessons and overthinking are necessary here.

I just want bards and machinists to realize they're holding up the group that much more when they waste LB, that's all. :)

No need to get too deep or analyze the purpose of our lives and paths to happiness over this, it's just a game.

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Is this life lesson not applicable here? :p But I think I did get a little wordy. What I'm saying is don't sweat the small stuff. People make mistakes. It's silly to expect them not to.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

im just saying its being made into something bigger than it has to be. was morre so hoping this thread would be more so about the utility a dps with healer limit break could bring to a party and not over mis-use or someone stealing anothers thunder

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It's about both, really. Inefficient usage of LB trending with bards and machinists, and the fact that they have a weak, narrow LB that can easily miss and does low damage when they previously had a potential group-saving LB.

Bard LB has gone from a potential group saver to near useless damage, adding more likelihood that it will be misused and is still inferior to other LBs.

It might be somewhat useful when you have 2 bards, but even then it's still almost useless just because of the sheer pathetic amount of damage it does. In most situations, it is useless completely because it's inferior to melee and caster lb. And as such, it is more easily used wrong.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

Is this life lesson not applicable here? :p But I think I did get a little wordy. What I'm saying is don't sweat the small stuff. People make mistakes. It's silly to expect them not to.

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Not really. I don't normally mind small mistakes and such, but after doing so many runs where I never even had the chance to LB because someone got trigger happy and after seeing so many people do it at the worst possible times, I wanted to rant a bit.

Its one thing to want to try to use the new LB to experience it. Its another to ride the LB button and snipe it from melee dps on single target fights. I never see a ranged use it on a big pull or on sets of adds in fights, but they seem to love LBing bosses.

And missing, which makes me grin at their fail.

I wish that the DEV crew would reconsider and have each class branch into more jobs like SMN/SCH. Such missed potential.

They could have branched off an made it Ranger, Sniper or Assassin~

Let BRD stay supportish and keep the healer LB (Its not often needed but it felt good when it was!)

I miss the old LB.

so let the little brds and mch's have fun for now, let them experiment. if i had not hit the lb3 during ravana ex(easy fast clears so we were seeing various lb3 animations) i would not have been able to figure out the benefits or proper use of my brd LB. yes in cases of efficiency mostly useless compared to a melee single target or caster huge aoe limit break. but running first floor of alexander with 3 melee my straight narrow line became efficient when lined up with both targets. its early still and all trends die out in time or at least calm down

If there is a situation that Brd really need to use healer lb3 ... Its already most likely 50% wiped .... or even more

Well, do you blame us? I mean, I've literally lost count of all the times my parties have sat on the limit break or waited till the last 5% before using it. I was in a Neverreap run, with a Dragoon as the other DD and both first bosses he never used it. I asked and he practically said, "Waste of time unless you're impatient."... So, yeah, do you blame us? We're just thinking, "You use that limit, soldier, or I'll find someone who can!"

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Well, do you blame us? I mean, I've literally lost count of all the times my parties have sat on the limit break or waited till the last 5% before using it. I was in a Neverreap run, with a Dragoon as the other DD and both first bosses he never used it. I asked and he practically said, "Waste of time unless you're impatient."... So, yeah, do you blame us? We're just thinking, "You use that limit, soldier, or I'll find someone who can!"

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Can't blame for using it in that situation, can blame you if you use it in the ways mentioned in my OP or don't even give the melee a chance to use it.

People say the old BRD healer LB was useless quite often, however I have been in situations (not often but it happens) where a BRD LB3 has saved the party when the healers have both gone down.'

Giving them an AOE LB was unnecessary, the casters had that covered and the old BRD LB was a good piece of raid utility for the "support DPS" job.

This means that now in 8 man content the only way to prevent a wipe in the event both healers go down is to have a SMN in the party rez them assuming you have one in the group.

As for the issue of 2 BRDs meaning that there is no useable LB in 4 man content, well LBs arent really necessary in a 4 man dungeon, just a nice bonus.

I've been using it in dungeons because the other dps tends to say it's a waste? Im not normally dps but what's the point of saving when they aint using it? Oh and still don't understand mch LB properly yet and ive not seen LB3.