So, this has been bugging me for a while now.
Why did the archbishop summon King Thordan? Now to be clear, I DID enjoy the Thordan fight and all. However we've been told over and again that both a large amount of Prayer and Aether are required. The Archbishop claims that the transformation was powered by a 1000 or so years of prayer and the power of the eye. Now unless I've missed a MAJOR detail, this is clearly not true. At no point has any characters mentioned Thordan with any benevolence, if anything he appears to be treated as a "cool" myth and people only talk about him when directly asked about it.
Normally this wouldn't bother me so much.
However, there IS a suitable "Person" who seemed to be ripe for the summoning. This person has and still is worshiped to this day by many Ishgardians. Characters also often pray to this person (off-handedly i'll admit) at multiple points during the MSQ. It just seems so obvious to me that Halone would be primal of choice for Ishgard. To be completely honest I was completely convinced we would face Halone at some point in the MSQ due to talk of primal summoning and more than a few lingering shots of Halone statues (Did no one else see this as some serious fore-shadowing?). Hell, i'm fairly sure the Archbishop had 2 of them in his office (that were practically always in frame).
So all in all,
How strong was ArchThordan with the serious lack of Prayer?
Do you think we could have beaten Halone?
Why Thordan over Halone?
Considering Thordan's worship is seemingly non-existent, how on earth did the Heavens' Ward manage to summon individual Knights Twelve? Where was their Aether supply?
Was the Archbishop uncomfortable in becoming a female primal?
Or perhaps he wanted to be a King more than he wanted to get the job done right?
Or perhaps like every other Mistery in FFXIV, it was the Allagans?
Poor Decision making? (Spoilers)
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07-07-2015, 04:27 AMtkcrispyPoor Decision making? (Spoilers)
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07-07-2015, 04:38 AMRhaja
I'm going to just lay the sad truth on the table
It was all for the Knights of the Round reference. Whole thing. -
07-07-2015, 04:44 AMFrejyaAthenes
Probably because Thordan I and the Knights Twelve were more revered since they were national heroes. Then again I'm not well versed on the lore of the Twelve so I figured they were like modern religion. Y'know, maybe their real, maybe they're not. Or I'm just rping an aethiest much better than I expected.
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07-07-2015, 04:56 AMCilia
Without more information, the best we can do is speculate.
Thordan I is, at the very least, considered the benevolent progenitor of Ishgard before we exposed the lie. During that time people fought in his name, despite praying to Halone for deliverance. It's not impossible to think many prayed to Thordan himself, if covertly.
Halone is also suggested to be a genuine goddess (maybe), not a primal. Of course there's always "summoning Halone as a primal," but that wouldn't be the "real" Halone. Primals also have their own will and agenda unless summoned into a(n Echo-possessing) mortal vessel, so a "primal Halone" wouldn't necessarily behave in a predictable or controllable manner. Summoning Thordan and his Knights Twelve as primals made the Archbishop and the Heavens' Ward into realized, ideal images of famous historical figures - the heroes of legend come back to end what they began. It's a great PR move to those ignorant to the truth.
Directly answering the questions:
1. King Thordan was probably the strongest primal we've faced to date, somehow using the backlog of prayer from the Dragonsong War and Nidhogg's right eye for sustenance.
2. It depends? A war goddess, maybe not. If it were a primal, it's just a matter of how much aether and prayer is sustaining her, and how powerful we are.
3. PR (see above). Alternatively, mayhap Thordan VII loves Halone too much to desecrate her with a primal summoned in her image, even knowing primals are just shades of mortal desires made manifest?
4. Given the heavy Ascian involvement in Thordan's plan, anything is possible. Perhaps they taught the Heavens' Ward to believe in themselves enough to manifest a primal in the image of one of the Knights Twelve, and the entire lot could only manifest themselves with Nidhogg's eye providing the aether?
5. Maybe? Considering what he knows about primals, it's probable he just selected someone (or something) to summon that's good for PR (see above).
6. He does ramble at length about becoming a god-king... perhaps, but I don't know.
7. Not always Allagans. Sometimes it's the Ascians. -
07-07-2015, 05:02 AMCausality
It's a matter of the religion itself.
Halone, according to lore, demands strength and self sufficiency of her followers and the Knights of the Heavensward and the Archbishop are charged with guiding and guarding the Papacy followed then by Aymeric and his Temple Knights. While they may pray to Halone for guidance and Strength, they Pray that The Archbishop, Their Leader, Sends his Knights of The Heavensward to save them when the Temple Knights have failed (ie the dragons made it into the city).
To the average Ishgardian the Heavensward and not Halone (of whom they believe would tell them to pick up a sword and fight for themselves) are their only hope. -
07-07-2015, 05:17 AMWintersandman
I don't believe he was summoning Thordan as he is Thordan. He was naming himself King and using the power of the Eye to bolster his power.
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07-07-2015, 05:25 AMWhiteroom
I may be mistaken, but did he not just turn himself into a primal, not summon thordan? He retained his own conscience it seems, rather than taking on that of the primals. It seemed a twisted summoning at best, given that he became the primal, rather than creating it. Its not inconceivable that there was a good amout of prayer directed to the archbishop himself. But I am fairly new to the loore forums and still picking stuff up.
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07-07-2015, 05:51 AMmyahele
I personally believe that the "experiments" that Lahabrea has done was all for this moment; especially since now we know they were allied with each other for years
1. Artificially (?) giving the echo to someone who never had it: Sahagin Priest
2. Using oneself as sacrifice for a stronger/ EX primal (this is kinda reaching out there)
3. Echo users becoming a vessel for a primal: Ysayle/Shiva
The Archbishop/ Heavensward seems to have been "farming" the populace for prayers: purposely letting in the heretics so they can cause havoc -
07-07-2015, 05:56 AMVeloxIt's no different than what Ysayle did with Shiva though. Summoning by using one's body as a host is a very new concept that we still don't know a lot about. That being said, we do know that the summoner retains his/her own influence over the power they are given. Instead of having a dog on a leash, it allows for complete control (and thus, can be much, much more destructive in the wrong hands).Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom
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07-07-2015, 06:19 AMZohar_Lahar
One thing I noticed is that the archbishop seemed to fully understand what primals actually are, and exploited it to the fullest. Whereas Ysayle mistakenly thought she was reincarnated Shiva, Thordan knew that what he was summoning was the power of myth, and planned to game the system as a means of becoming God-King. He did it so well, he even took out Lahabrea for us in an ironic end.
As for why Knights of the Round, remember that the Archbishop had a praetorian guard of twelve knights styled after King Thordan's original twelve knights. This was simply the most convenient mechanism to utilize the nature of primals. -
07-07-2015, 06:37 AMAnonymooseThis isn't going to be a very critical analysis; I'm just kind of rambling off the top of my head. To outsiders, it seems a lot like what you're saying here, but things are different inside of religious communities. The longer that a scripture survives, the more versions of it are written, the more schisms create new denominations of it, the more and more elaborate some of the tales become (especially if this all started back when people generally knew less than they do later), and the more and more venerated they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
There are apocryphic texts where Jesus tames dragons and make snakes explode and curses people blind. Saints of various religions are said to fly and walk through fires unburned and tear lions apart with their bare hands and become giants. That's the kind of stuff people are believing of King Thordan and the Knights Twelve - embellished, inflated stories backed by an extremely zealous central religion and the need for security after a millennium at war with dragons.
Once you get that deep into your worship, a certain level of interaction with the godhead becomes so far over the line as to be considered blasphemous (though they clearly don't have a problem with idolatry or deity depiction given the art and statures, lol). I think the only person who'd dare do anything on Halone's behalf would be Thordan VII, and he wanted to become a god in and of himself using the inflated, mythical version of Thordan I.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
How many crystals did she eat?Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
Maybe, though he was clearly selfish in his desire. He wanted to be a God-King. I can't really tell where Halone would have fit into that. Does he do away with her and reign himself? Does he keep her above him as Her worldly representative and chosen ruler? I'll keep an eye out as I re-read things; I've only been over it the one time so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
Now that I'm still fuzzy on. Crystals in their pocket, like Iceheart? lolQuote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
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07-07-2015, 07:47 AMtkcrispy
Some interesting and plausible ideas here. Although i'm beginning to realize that summoning rules as a whole are.... flimsy. Which is somewhat understandable, given the restraints that the original "rules" put in place. After all there are other instances of summoning against the rules. For example, Garuda managing to simultaneously summon Titan and Ifrit by inflicting pain on a very small group of individuals with no crystals in sight. Then Ysayle summoning Shiva solo whilst in free-fall (Which MIGHT have possibly been powered by Hreasvlgr, although nothing actually made this distinction). Also, was it not meant to be crystals of the correct elemental type? If so then that idea has gone out the window with King Mog, Ravana, and King Thordan having no discern-able elemental type(Although i guess the eye could technically hold all elemental types).
On a final note, how important are crystals anyway? Bahamut was imprisoned for millennia, yet there was no sign of crystals in the coils. It's also been mentioned that many other Primals like beings have been captured by the allagans, do they imprison each with a life supply of crystals? -
07-07-2015, 08:06 AMWhiteroomAre crystals even needed beyond the inital summoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
Another funny thing about primals, since it has come to light that they are just creations of the summoner imaginings. How are some then aware of others, such as Ramuh. Don't some of the others as well refer to each other, or was that something from the 1.0 version. Also, how did Ruda summon Titan and Ifrit in the same form as we fought, aside from it just being easier for the devs to do it that way. -
07-07-2015, 08:16 AMVeloxGaruda did not summon Ifrit and Titan. She inflicted pain onto the Amalj'aa and Kobolds to a point where they called out and summoned their respective deities themselves. That's why they didn't change form. We see Ifrit and Titan as the Amalj'aa and Kobolds (summoners) see them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom
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07-07-2015, 08:24 AMDualblade
If I'm correct one of the bigger reasons he went to Azy in the first place was because of the Warring Triad, IE a GIANT WELLSPRING OF AETHER to use from himself. The Ravana EX quest also mentions him wanting to take the Warring Triad's power/aether for himself for his conquest of Eorzea (and I think something about Bismark just wanting to eat them? Not sure there.)
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07-07-2015, 08:26 AMVeloxPrimal don't necessarily need crystals. It's a misconception. Primal need aether for sustainment. It just so happens that corrupted crystals are a wellspring of aether in a tangible form, thus making it possible to accumulate them without technology. Allag had no need for them since their devices captured the sun's energy. Their tech was so advanced they could twist and manipulate aether at will. The internment hulks that bound Bahamut kept funneling aether into him. That plus the endless prayers of the imprisoned dragons fueled his eternal existence. Even after he was struck down by Louisoix, the hulks kept trying to rebuild him. The whole Coil premise was to shut down the IHs to stop Bahamut's regeneration.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
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07-07-2015, 09:28 AMCiliaStrictly speaking crystals are never required for summoning. Aether matching up with the element(s) of the primal to be summoned is usually used, e.g. for Bismarck to be summoned the Vanu Vanu just need (a lot of) wind, water, and lightning aether (based on his attacks). Crystals are just a convenient way of carting aether around since they're a dense, tangible form of a normally intangible substance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteroom
They do still need aether after an initial summoning; the aspected aether available to a primal determines it's relative strength. We go up against Shiva and she's reasonably tough (story-wise), but then she gets trounced by Ravana which (according to Ysayle) was due to the lack of available ice crystals (aether).
It's been confirmed the primals are vaguely aware of each other, even if they've never met face-to-face. As manifestations of (elemental) aether, they always exist in the Lifestream where they probably bump into each other as elemental forces. Other people explained how it wasn't Garuda that summoned Ifrit and Titan, but captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds praying to them. -
07-07-2015, 07:30 PMDaraliiIt's mentioned even during the fight itself. Before the Knights of the Round phase, he tells Ascalon to "Drink deep of the power of slumbering gods," which I'm assuming was referring to the Warring Triad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dualblade
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07-07-2015, 11:06 PMLethorian
Here is my take on the whole thing, I will try to answer your questions as best as I can, and correct me if I am wrong anywhere:
1) "ArchThordan" had a tremendous amount of prayer. 1000 years worth of prayer. While those in Ishguard did praise Halone and seek her out for strength in times of need, it isn't the same as praying to her. The Holy-See were more than anything followers of Thordan I. The Dragon Song War had nothing to do with Halone. Ishguard were getting behind Thordan and believed enough in him to continue feuling the war for 1000 years thinking the dragons are the ones who drew first blood and more than anything wanted retribution for that.
2) Halone would have been just as strong as Thordan was, with they same amount of prayer and Aether thier power would have been equal.
3) Because it was Thordan who was revered by the Holy-See. It is also my belief that the Archbishop did not wan't to actually become a god, but the hand of a God. Like the Garleans, the Holy-See had the same goals as we do: Extinguishing the Primal threat. The thing is they were fanatics and were going about it all the wrong way seeking supression instead of freedom. He wanted to do Halone's bidding, not become Halone herself.
4) You seem to be confusing worship and belief. They don't exactly need down-on-your-knees-worship in order to fit the conditions of summoning, they simply need a strong belief in place, and as I stated before Ishgardians BELIEVED in Thordan I. This belief is also separate from the Aether supply, both belief and aether are required for summoning. The aether supply was the Eye of Niddhog. If you remember we used an Eye to destroy an Ascion just before this fight, which was a lot easier to do than what we had to go through the last time we wanted to destroy an Ascion (gather a ton of aether before hand, plus sacrifice a Scion). Using the eye, while also being weakened after being used to break the barrier of Azys Lla, was still much easier than what the previous method was. Thay had a fresh fully charged eye at thier disposal, they pretty much had an unlimited supply of aether.
5&6) As stated above, He just wanted to do Halone's bidding more so than become her.
7) Like The Moose stated, this one was all the Ascion's doing, which then became thier own undoing.
Bonus) One thing I believe is that the Archbishop didn't exactly become Thordan I, but that he manifested Thordan I into the giant sword he was using, much like how Odin is not the weilder, but actually the weapon weilded.
Hope some of this helps you! -
07-08-2015, 02:44 PMBeckett
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Twelve probably wouldn't allow a Primal of themselves to exist.
It's not really so much one over the other. Both are worshiped, but it's a very different sort of worship. It's the difference between George Washington and Jesus. One is considered to be a great man with mythos much larger than what he actually was, and is known and revered by millions of people hundreds of years after his death. The other is considered to be a literal aspect of God. It's easy to see how, in the world of FFXIV, Washington could be summoned as a Primal, given lore and aura surrounding the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy
That was where the eye came in. It had much more aether than all the crystals used to summon any of the beastmen Primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkcrispy