So we've had explanations given for how the different kinds of magic work in Eorzea; white magic draws on the aether from the surrounding elements, arcanima uses geometric designs, etc, etc. We even have pretty in-depth histories on most of them. Summoning was created by the Allagans during the Third Astral Era to combat Meracydia, Black Magic was developed by Shatotto during the the Fifth Astral Era...
However, the nature of the dark magic that Dark Knights harness is... incredibly vague. As far as history, we don't have much. The first dark knight turned against a corrupt clergyman and was stripped of his titles and denounced for it, only to cast aside his shield and "in its place, he came to wield something far more potent: a power born of the abyss which lies at the heart of us all. A darkness which can grant us great strength...at a price." He then trained two apprentices, and they in turn have their own roles in training the player, making us the third generation of dark knights. So not much to go on in terms of history.
Now, its also not any kind of thaumaturgy. If you talk to Cocobuki in the thaumaturge guild before the lv. 60 quest, he says something along the lines of his art being more arcane in nature than that of the dark knight. After completing the lv. 60 quest; "Hm hm hm... You think darkness is your ally? Be wary, [player], for darkness bears no allegiances.
"There's a darkness within us all - nothing dangerous, mind. In fact, it's quite healthy. But the crystal changes you - gives you the power to channel it." - Fray
And it's more than just channeling aether, there's a definite structure and form to some of the spells that speak to something more complex than just "grrr rawr, anger rage rawr."
So what is it? Void magic? Channeling negative emotions into power via aether, à la the Sith with the force? And by using the darkness within, are dark knights actually using their own personal aether to harness that power instead of the aether of the environment? That'd certainly explain "the price," as anyone who's leveled a conjurer will know.
How does the "Power of Darkness" work? (Minor DRK spoilers)
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07-06-2015, 09:21 AMKhyzenHow does the "Power of Darkness" work? (Minor DRK spoilers)
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07-06-2015, 09:42 AMsilverwell
Considering this dark magic has only been around since very recently, I would wager it hasn't been around long enough to warrant much in-depth detail.
Or, maybe SE made it a recent enough discovery so that they (SE) wouldn't have to put much lore into it.
My theory is that everyone has some amount of aether flowing naturally within them. Some have lots, some have barely any.
When some natives get to the point of an extreme, they may exhibit an affinity for channeling aether in some way, shape, or form.
By what I've seen of this first dark magic user, he simply got to a point his inner/putter conflicts fueled his inner aether, and he just "burst".
But I haven't touched the DRK quests yet. -
07-06-2015, 09:53 AMNaraku_Diabolos
I'm thinking that it aether that we have within ourselves, but it is along the lines of negative and dark emotions.
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07-06-2015, 10:08 AMCilia
Exactly how it works isn't very well explained. Implicitly it's channeling your emotions in tandem with aether to produce effects. The problem with that is that negative feelings tend to linger or produce stronger effects than positive emotions.
Part of the 50-60 DRK quest is getting Sidurgu to admit the reason he fights so hard for Rielle is because he loves her (in a platonic way), and that the reason he took up the sword was vengeance against the Ishgardian Temple Knights for taking away his loved ones. It's a very emotional power unlike most other magicks, which can make it very dangerous.
Now where that darkness comes from, well... Zodiark? Don't know yet. -
07-06-2015, 01:22 PMGrayve
Up to 50, I think it's clear the WoL is using their anger to fuel their powers. Post 50, it becomes their 'love' for Eorzea, or at least to protect those that can't protect themselves. Sid, in the other hand, is using anger all the way to at least 58... IMO, using Rielle as a justification for his revenge based on what Ishgard did to his family, his mentor, and Fray. It isn't until the penultimate quests that he is able to put that aside and become more focused on protecting others, IMO.
As for the fuel source.... Emotions, positive or negative, drawing upon personal aether. However, unlike WMGs, the DRKs refuel their own aether by stealing their foes aether. This prevents the DRK from burning themselves out.
Just speculation based on the mechanics of the class. -
07-06-2015, 02:46 PMKotori_Southburd
I think it's kinda like WAR
WAR draws from the your inner beast... your inner battle lust... adrenaline rush... that satisfying but arguably immoral pleasure you get when you brutally maim someone
DRK from what I have seen, draws from your inner contempt and bitterness towards the world
I guess in Star Wars term, DRK would be Sith? -
07-06-2015, 02:50 PMKaiser-Ace
I played the 1st quest but haven't leveled it much yet, and based on what I see it seems to be a final fantasy version of The Force with us playing the "Rouge Jedi" roll of trying to balance the Light and Dark sides of the force (In this case keeping our inner light in balance with our inner darkness)
So the power source is literally us. The Aether we're using as DRKs is just our inner energy using Aether to manifest physically in a very similar way to how force lightning is hatred given form by The Force.
(Fun Fact, Aether historically has been thought of as matter and energy at the same time, not explicitly one or the other) -
07-06-2015, 02:53 PMDualblade
if it ends up having something to do with Zodiark that could possibly fit in with my theory of him not being evil...
That said, there isn't much we know about it yet. At the least it draws power from out own self, usually negative feelings but if the whole thing at 58 was pointing towards emotions in general maybe (with certain ones of course being stronger for it EG Love and Hate) then...well that actually shows a good bit how it could be just as destructive towards us as it is helpful. Too much anger and we lose control of ourselves, yet love too could lead us to doing something drastic that ultimately kills us. -
07-06-2015, 06:39 PMArcaviusGreyashe
I fully agree with Dualblade...
As it seems to be pointed out in the post-50 quests, Darkness is the power of feelings, love, hate, and so. Not only positive feelings, not negative, Just feelings. But the pre-50 describes the objectives of darkness. Darkness makes us free. In French, Fray tell us that we can escape all the pressure others are putting on our shoulders, we can flee and be whoever we want, whatever we want. It tells us that the Warrior of Light is no super human, he just happens to be blessed by Hydaelyn, but who asked him what he wants to do, to be ? Nobody. Nobody but Fray, the incarnation of our freedom.
Darkness is freedom, freedom to do whatever we dream of, by consuming our own aether. Why the dreams, you'll ask me ? Because there's a dichotomy between Zodiark and Hydaelyn. And the more the story progress, the more I see their evolution, the more I see, not Light and Darkness, but Reasoning and Feelings.
When did Ysayle's light shard appeared ? When she reasoned about what she was doing, when she let her feelings of dragons being victime aside.
What are the objectives of Ascians individuals ? It is implied several times That every last one of them has its own motivations. They have dreams.
So no, Zodiark may not be the bad guy. Just the one that keeps being beat because he lets his people dream. So... Who's the villain, now ?
Ah, and for those that'll come up saying "Zodiark is chaos, not feelings, he needs to disappear for the equilibrium, blah, blah", yes, Zodiark is Chaos. And Feelings. Those aren't That different at all... And for the equilibrium to be restored, we need both light and darkness, feelings and reasonings, Harmony and Chaos... -
07-06-2015, 11:32 PMRhajaSo... we're playing Dissidia =DQuote:
Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe
O_O I want Zodiark to have the same voice actor as Chaos!!!! -
07-07-2015, 01:01 AMCiliaFunny enough, I'm not entirely convinced Hydaelyn is the benevolent goddess she's made out to be for similar reasons. Primarily because she's, you know, a goddess, and we're made to protect and serve her. While it's far from the same genre, the Souls games (and Bloodborne) touch these kinds of things. Paraphrasing BB's Plain Doll:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe
"Eorzeans have told me about Hydaelyn. About the Goddess, and Her love. But... does the Goddess love Her creations? Of course, they do love Hydaelyn. Isn't that how She's made them?"
Even Thordan tells you that by tearing down the Church you're offering Ishgard only "virtuous suffering" and "bitter truth," but (DS II's Aldia) "no matter how tender, how exquisite, a lie will remain a lie."
Chaos is freedom - the freedom to do as we wish, unbound to the yoke of Ishgard, or Eorzea, or even Hydaelyn herself. The quest log for DRK even says so. Chaos is considered inherently evil, but as important component of freedom... is it really?
EDIT
Not that XIV is the sort of game to touch on such vagaries of morality... -
07-09-2015, 10:52 PMAllyrionThey really put a lot into the DRK quest log. It's really interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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07-09-2015, 11:40 PMsaber_alterif i know gods and goddesses, they always have ulterior motives. most likely we are just her self defense mechanism though...the overpowered kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
aldia has the right of it. the truth stings because it is supposed to. Ishgard lived a lie out of necessity to stave off Nidhogg's rage, and though the dreadwyrm is back, the necessity died with the archbishop and the heaven's ward.Quote:
Even Thordan tells you that by tearing down the Church you're offering Ishgard only "virtuous suffering" and "bitter truth," but (DS II's Aldia) "no matter how tender, how exquisite, a lie will remain a lie."
i see this slightly differently. chaos and lawfullness are not similar to good and evil, though they share the same tendencies. someone who is evil can bring chaos, and someone who is good can be lawful. the ascians are a perfect example of this trait: on one hand they seek to destabilize hydaelyn to bring about the rejoining, but at the same time they seek to restore the balance with their own champion. same goes for us, who value the freedom adventurers have, but wish the world not to fall to the ascian's chaos.Quote:
Chaos is freedom - the freedom to do as we wish, unbound to the yoke of Ishgard, or Eorzea, or even Hydaelyn herself. The quest log for DRK even says so. Chaos is considered inherently evil, but as important component of freedom... is it really?
yeah, it definitely doesn't. just sunshine and moogles here kupo.Quote:
Not that XIV is the sort of game to touch on such vagaries of morality...
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07-10-2015, 12:24 AMAllyrionWell it deals mostly in alignments and doesn't mesh them too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by saber_alter
Like you all said, chaos isn't evil in itself. It's like the DnD alignments.
There's is Chaotic Evil (Garuda) and Lawful Evil (Thordan) . Likewise, there's Chaotic Good (DRK) and Lawful Good (PLD).
I actually would say that Lawful Good is the least represented by the NPCs.
I wanted to say Scions, but they're pretty rogue most of the time. They definitely fall into Neutral Good.
FFXIV deals with the alignments heavily.
I guess it's not vague in the sense that people mostly fit into one category and stay there most of the time.
That's pretty true. Otherwise, it definitely deals with the spectrum of alignments and separates lawful and good (as well as chaos and evil). -
07-10-2015, 01:28 AMsaber_alteri would say that DRK falls more into chaotic neutral or true neutral. we do good, we do bad, we don't get a shite about most laws, and will kill people who hide behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allyrion
they for the most part follow the law. they really have their own alignments however, with thancred being the closest to chaotic good while the rest are neutral or lawful. minfilia, Y'shtola, and papalymo are without a doubt lawful good though.Quote:
I actually would say that Lawful Good is the least represented by the NPCs.
I wanted to say Scions, but they're pretty rogue most of the time. They definitely fall into Neutral Good.
exactly! good and evil (like order in chaos) are not polarizing. those that walk the road to ruin pave the ground with good intentions, and villains can turn into anti-heroes just as quickly. Thordan made it perfectly clear that he was becoming a god-king for the good of eorzea and that nothing would stand in his way in achieving his goals. he WANTED to see a ishgardian empire at peace with the world, and was willing to do anything to make it so. He was ultimately wrong, and his way of going about his goals were as poor as gaius,' but he had good intentions.Quote:
FFXIV deals with the alignments heavily.
I guess it's not vague in the sense that people mostly fit into one category and stay there most of the time.
That's pretty true. Otherwise, it definitely deals with the spectrum of alignments and separates lawful and good (as well as chaos and evil).
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07-10-2015, 11:15 PMshinros
Well sid also mentions we use the power of the abyss. Now what the abyss is? Is it related to Zodiark or the void? Who knows. I mean when you finish the 60 quest and learn your last skill the text says "From the abyss you hear a whisper.....", now where is this whisper coming from? Normally before if we learnt a skill through our darkside it would say so. For example when we learned abyssal drain? Or was it sole survivor? It said "Your dark side feeds on the pain" or something like that.
Maybe we will learn more if they add a questline for our artifact weapon and armor. Or we may have to wait until the next level cap increase. -
07-10-2015, 11:40 PMMysteltainI like those examples and raise you a Demons' Souls, haha! In DeS, one of the characters is Yuria the Witch who uses an off-shoot of the Soul Arts (magic utilizing the souls of demons), aptly called Witchcraft. To quote her description of it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Sage Freke also later comments that Yuria's witchcraft appears to be tied to her emotions, hence why a lot of the spells come across as uncontrollable or dangerous to the player, themselves. It seems like XIV follows suit with this, as both White and Black Magic are very well defined and systemized, requiring full understanding of what one is doing to make the most use out of it, while Dark Magic stems from a much more raw nature, and thus makes it more unwieldy and chaotic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuria the Witch
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07-11-2015, 08:26 AMshinros
Honestly I think our power is void based I think abyss is just another word for it just like chakra is aether. I mean you can't go around saying that you use the power from a place which spits out demon like creatures no one is going to want your help then.
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07-11-2015, 03:44 PMCilia
Well, getting back on topic from the discussion about Hydaelyn...
Implicitly, the power of darkness is harnessed through physical and/or emotional duress, conscious or otherwise. "Fray" is a construct of your post-traumatic stress from 2.x, and as a defender with no shield we're taking a lot of punishment. Blood Weapon drains MP with every hit. Then there's Blood Price, where we literally feed off of our pain, and Syphon Strike, Souleater, Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, and normal Carve and Spit, where we vampirically drain our enemy's life energy.
What does this have to do with the power of darkness?
Demons and voidsent feast on aether, so you could say we're tempting the darkness with our own aether and harnessing it through the pain and suffering that goes along with it, then replenishing our aether by draining it out of our enemies.
That's entirely the point of being a dark knight. People will shun and hate you for what you are, for what you do. Dark knights are the people who have seen the truth - that the world is a strange and cruel place, and that the only real justice is that of the grave. Instead of sugarcoating what we do with valor, honor, duty, religion, or custom, we have no illusions about such lofty ideals - we kill the corrupt people law can't touch because nobody else will, and if we don't do so they'll just get away with killing and hurting more people.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinros
We know what we are - criminals, murderers. And we know what that means, what it costs, and what it's worth... and choose to fight anyway, because no one else will.
That's the ideal, at least. Sidurgu himself uses that ideal as an excuse to indulge in vengeance, but he seems to be moving toward that ideal after the 58 quest. Let's just let this little exchange between Yuri and Flynn from Tales of Vesperia sum up the Dark Knight ideal; Yuri is, obviously, the Dark Knight.
Yuri: The laws have always been the tools of whoever happens to hold all the chips.
Flynn: Just saying that doesn't make it right for individuals to judge right from wrong, or for you to operate out of your own private court of law! If the laws are at fault, then fixing those laws comes first.
Yuri: But you can't deny that lives were saved because those bastards were put down. You'd rather tell those people, 'Sorry you have to die today. I promise we'll change things real soon'?
Flynn: That's not what I'm saying at all!
Yuri: They're out there, you know. People so bad they'll just go on hurting others. What can the average person do but be victimized by people like that?
Flynn: Even so, Yuri, what you're doing isn't right. Do you intend to rain your justice down on all the villains of the world? That's the behavior of a common criminal.
Yuri: I recognize it for what it is, and I've made my choices. Murder is a crime.
Flynn: ...And still, you intend to dirty your hands?
Yuri: Intend to? I already have.
... and that, ladies and gentlemen, is what it means to be a Dark Knight. -
07-11-2015, 04:57 PMKaiser-Ace
Here's my recomendation for a new Dark Knight War Cry. (Curtosy of Hellsing Abridged series)
Who are we?
The Nessisary Evil!
Why are we nessisarry?
To purg the world of evil worse than mine!!
And why are we, the Gods chosen few, ordained to undertake this unholy task?
Because no one else will!!!!
And because it's F-ing FUN!!!!!!! -
07-11-2015, 08:16 PMshinrosOf course, just saying that everyone would run away screaming if they knew where our powers came from at best currently we get jeered at, booed and a few ambushes.( only because of the 50 quest and that keep found out whats underneath the "mask" luckly we had a friend there to keep it on the down low.) Now if the common man understood there would be pinchforks and torches instead of the normal stuff I would expect the same response from the 50 quest when the temple knight tried to kill you but on a bigger scale. Then the whole town/village would be calling you a demon/heretic trying to put you down. The life of a dark knight is glorius ins't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Its the same with BLM they don't walk around saying to everyone hey guys we totally use/channel the void! That would be bad :P. Now the reason why I believe it's void based is because a certain someone during the level 50 quest was using strange skills like gravity force and flare. The only being we know who uses that spell is diabolos who is known as king among voidsent. Oh and flare is a black magic spell only people we know of who use black magic spells are wol and his friends, ascians and void sent. Maybe I am reading too much into it but that's what I think. -
07-11-2015, 11:05 PMAllyrionI think people know Black Mages use the power of the Void.Quote:
Originally Posted by shinros
That's why BLMs seem to live in secret or on the outskirts of society. People are afraid of them and don't ask questions they don't want the answers to, but I don't think it's really a secret.
You don't run around telling people where your power comes from, because it's a 'don't ask, don't tell' situation.
But I think it's sort of like after 2.55, the Braves and the Brass Blades don't confront you because they're afraid.
Either way, the normal BLMs and DRKs wouldn't go walking and talking to people normally anyway.
And telling people randomly where your power comes from is a bad deal for any Job, even the accepted ones. There's no reason to do that.
I think it's clear the DRK is related to the Void in some way, or Zodiark or both. We need a better understanding of the connection of those two in the first place.