Wait, so why did the Archbishop... (SPOILERS)

...go to Azys Lla? Doesn't seem like he needed anything there to summon King Thordan unless that was where Haldrath's body was, but how would that be possible?

The Secrets of Allag™

That phrase is used nearly every time Azys Lla is brought up. Like the Ultima Weapon, Azys Lla is a tangible link to the knowledge of Allag; something you can learn from and use and make their abilities your abilities. Azys Lla was dedicated to the binding and control of primals, eikons, and dragons. This knowledge would well serve a primal-infused aspiring-God-King waging a millennium-long war against dragons, so the Ascians offered it, the same way they offered the Ultima Weapon - the power to rid Eorzea of primals - to Gaius van Baelsr. If the Ascians were trying to corrupt Fat Chocobo, it they would use a fishing rod baited with a slice of cake of a recipe devised by Xande himself.

Super-awesome Allagan tech aside, Urianger states they likely went to Azys Lla to seek out the Warring Triad's power when you go trigger the EX Primal quest.

And then there's the other lingering question of how much of the tech we've seen so far is actually Allagan and not just a rebrand, like the Heart of Sabik powering the Ultima Weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

Super-awesome Allagan tech aside, Urianger states they likely went to Azys Lla to seek out the Warring Triad's power when you go trigger the EX Primal quest.

---

Correct;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Urianger

'Twas first and foremost to acquire the infinite power of the Warring Triad that the archbishop did seek Azys Lla.

---

Considering his intent to betray the Ascians, this is the Secret of Allag™ that probably tempted him the most.

I'm still unsure whether we're to believe that the Ascians knew that the Triad were his specific focus when the story was in motion, though. It feels a bit like a post-affairs revelation. The Ascians sought to sow conflict and were surprised to see the Warrior of Light was powerful enough to deny them their abilities. If they knew ahead of time that the Archbishop specifically planned to reach Azys Lla to drive Ascalon into the Warring Triad and consume their "infinite power," wouldn't they have shown some caution? He could end all conflict with that much power, and surely rival the Warrior of Light's ability to occasionally check the Ascians. I don't feel like I've wrapped my mind entirely around that part of the story, yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

He could end all conflict with that much power.

---

The Garleans say the same thing; ask them how that's going?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If they knew ahead of time that the Archbishop specifically planned to reach Azys Lla to drive Ascalon into the Warring Triad and consume their "infinite power," wouldn't they have shown some caution? He could end all conflict with that much power, and surely rival the Warrior of Light's ability to occasionally check the Ascians.

---

They might have known. We do encounter them down in the Triad Control Room, and I doubt Thordan knew about the Triad on his own.

In regards to them supporting Thordan's Quest for Peace, his idea of "peace" was probably "slaughter anyone who opposes me," exactly as he tried to do to us. Definitely plays into the Ascians' plans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

In regards to them supporting Thordan's Quest for Peace, his idea of "peace" was probably "slaughter anyone who opposes me," exactly as he tried to do to us. Definitely plays into the Ascians' plans.

---

Perhaps the Ascians were willing to roll the dice on him [A] not turning on them and [B] causing enough chaos to bring about Zodiark's return before resistance ended. Or maybe I'm just wrong in assuming that resistance would end. If someone displays an infinite wellspring of power, don't you just lay down your arms for the time being? Imagine the shock and awe of a defeat at the hands of a Triad-empowered Thordan and the Knights of the Round (assuming he also killed the Warrior of Light). I would expect things to just collapse into the Ishgardian Empire sooner rather than later, lol.

Then again, perhaps the eventual Isghardian Empire - Garlean Empire war would guarantee enough chaos to raise Zodiark.

In all likelihood, Thordan never actually told them of his true intentions beyond, "I want to stop the Dravanians," because that's the only thing that was clearly at the surface. Their likely plan was to get him to kick the door open to siphon the power of the Warring Triad, which he would fail at doing, and thus release the Triad back into the world. They didn't anticipate either his greater ambition, nor the fact that he had the immense power of the second Eye of Nidhogg with him.

One thing to remember, Elidibus does say in the after-credits scene that Lahabrea and the other Ascian were basically trying to rush things, which ultimately got them killed (though I'm still sure Lahabrea will find a way back.) So they screwed up big time both in letting the WoL getting too powerful AND not keeping enough of an eye on the Pope and his Knights own plotting against them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adrasteia

In all likelihood, Thordan never actually told them of his true intentions beyond, "I want to stop the Dravanians,"

---

This was my first impression as well, that Thordan outwardly expressed only that he wanted to end a millennium mired in war against the dragons by becoming the mythological version of Thordan with his Knights Twelve from the scriptures in order to finally end the stalemate with Dravania. That's what I'm going to stick with for now; I think the Ascians would have accepted that without a second thought about what he'd do if he actually accomplished his goal. And who's to say they'd let him? I bet they'd simply offer the dragons just enough power to resist him in a brutal, chaotic struggle that leads to Calamity. The sunset of the Allagan Empire was built on Darkness, and yet they just turned the tide by coaxing Tiamat to summon Bahamut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Perhaps the Ascians were willing to roll the dice on him [A] not turning on them and [B] causing enough chaos to bring about Zodiark's return before resistance ended. Or maybe I'm just wrong in assuming that resistance would end.

---

To [A], Lahabrea makes it pretty clear he never expected Thordan to betray him. He seems shocked and incredulous that he's doing so.

To [B], there's no way to know exactly. Going into the realm of theory, if the Warrior of Light died fighting the Knights of the Round and Thordan went on a "conquest of peace," doubtless the beast tribes would all summon their primals in response. If anyone fought back, there would be deaths. If it escalates to a war with Garlemald, that's an even higher death toll. All of that works in the Ascians' favor.

Maybe they expected Thordan to unleash the 8th umbral era, they seem to be eager to trigger that one as if it was the final one, others have occurred millennia from each others and now they try to trigger it while it has only been 5 years since the last one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lololink

Maybe they expected Thordan to unleash the 8th umbral era, they seem to be eager to trigger that one as if it was the final one, others have occurred millennia from each others and now they try to trigger it while it has only been 5 years since the last one.

---

Aren't we still in the 7th Umbral Era though? Thus far all the Umbral Eras represented an element, except for the current/7th Umbral Era? I do know that the GC leaders all claimed that we're currently in a new Astral Era in the end of 2.0... but that seems to be more of a PR move.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

... but that seems to be more of a PR move.

---

The cycle of Calamities is surely concrete, but the cycle of the eras? Ehhh... Exactly where one starts and exactly where one ends seems up to the people of the time. In this cycle, the Seventh Umbral began with the Calamity itself, but would you have called B.S. if they'd called it in ten years earlier with the fall of the Keeper, appearance of the primals, arrival of the Reaper, and sounding of the Echo? Some knew then and there that Calamity was coming and moved to try to prevent / forestall it. Likewise, does it end when all foes are defeated? When the aether is in balance? When it has been X days without primal summonings or Ascian machinations?

The GC leaders seized momentum and claimed that the defeat of the XIVth Legion was proof that things weren't just going to get worse forever, that things weren't hopeless, and that any attempt to raise us up from Calamity wasn't just doomed to be undone by the next unfortunate event.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamer Escape Interview with Koji Fox at Fan Fest '14

GE: So, officially, it’s the Seventh Astral Era… but there’s still… a lot of stuff going on. Who are the Grand Company Leaders that they can just be like, “Okay, it’s over, we’re done!”

MCKF: This is a very political thing. Basically, five years ago, you had half of your world destroyed because Louisoix stepped in and tried to stop things and only half stopped things. A lot of people did pass away during the calamity and their livelihood as been destroyed and they have to rebuild and go into the shroud to move felled trees and rebuild their farms and it got a lot of people down. If you look at some of the NPC dialogue, one thing we did in 2.0 was, we thought you know if my life had been destroyed I’d be all depressed, I’m just trying to rebuild things and get back on my feet. SO we’ve tried to put that kind of text into these regular NPCs. You have all these people in these nations that are very down. They had this big war with the Garleans, they won all these great battles, it was the first time in thousands of years the Grand Companies were formed and then “hey we made… DIDN’T make it” so basically the GC leaders were waiting for something good to happen and they grasped onto that and said “ok! umbral era is over mission accomplished we’re done!” to hopefully bring peoples spirits up. It’s a morale thing, you can’t have your people depressed all the time, they won’t be productive thinking “why should I farm? Another Bahamut is gonna just destroy my fields”

GE: So we have that quest line, Chronicles of a New Era.. so we ARE in a new era then?

MCKF: Yep. When they announce it, that’s it. But it’s weird because if a new player picks up the game and starts today they’re still in the Umbral Era, it’s in that time bubble.

[SOURCE]

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

Aren't we still in the 7th Umbral Era though? Thus far all the Umbral Eras represented an element, except for the current/7th Umbral Era? I do know that the GC leaders all claimed that we're currently in a new Astral Era in the end of 2.0... but that seems to be more of a PR move.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The cycle of Calamities is surely concrete, but the cycle of the eras? Ehhh... Exactly where one starts and exactly where one ends seems up to the people of the time. In this cycle, the Seventh Umbral began with the Calamity itself, but would you have called B.S. if they'd called it in ten years earlier with the fall of the Keeper, appearance of the primals, arrival of the Reaper, and sounding of the Echo? Some knew then and there that Calamity was coming and moved to try to prevent / forestall it. Likewise, does it end when all foes are defeated? When the aether is in balance? When it has been X days without primal summonings or Ascian machinations?

The GC leaders seized momentum and claimed that the defeat of the XIVth Legion was proof that things weren't just going to get worse forever, that things weren't hopeless, and that any attempt to raise us up from Calamity wasn't just doomed to be undone by the next unfortunate event.

---

Thusly, it was a totally legit PR move.

Its a GREAT PR move...but even without that Elidibus, when saying Lahabrea et al were trying to rush things, that it was for the 8th rejoining. Which would correspond with, if we hadn't gotten in the way, the 8th Umbral Era. So yes we pretty much are in the 7th Astral Era.

Also, isn't it stated somewhere (trial of the braves maybe?) that after each umbral era the warriors of light come forth to banish the darkness?

Each asteral/umbral era has corresponded with an element.

I wonder if the 7th Astral era is light and benefits Hydaelyn, while the 8th Umbral era is Dark and benefits Zodiark?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by myahele

I wonder if the 7th Astral era is light and benefits Hydaelyn, while the 8th Umbral era is Dark and benefits Zodiark?

---

That's a specific I've pondered in the past, as well. People thought that, as the Divine Chronicles predicted, there would be six cycles, one for each element. Throughout the Sixth Astral Era, they figured it was finally over... until a huntsman stumbled upon a tablet containing the Seventh Verse of the prophecy. Some dismissed this new addition, and 1,500 years out from the last Calamity, some dismissed the entire thing as superstition... until Dalamud fell.

But if there's a seventh cycle, one might wonder if we're following the same cycle as the week (which has eight days, six elements + two polarities). In that cycle, Astral comes first (so too with months), but umbral eras precede astral ones. One might ask, "Is this then the Umbral Era of Astral (Light) and we need to end this before the Umbral Era of Umbral (Darkness)?"

As possible as that is, I've been thinking (for now) that this is instead akin to the religious scripture of the Seven Hells, whereby one must pass through the six elemental hells before arriving before the Black Warden at the Seventh Gate and that this is the final era, win or lose. I think if the next Calamity hits, it's not the eighth cycle, it's just over. Perhaps that's what the mythology of the Seven Hells has foreshadowed the entire time. Perhaps Zodiark is the Black Warden, in a way.

The Ascians also seemed pretty sure the Warrior of Light would also perish here. Instead, Igeyorhm gets trapped in White Auracite and shattered by Nidhogg's left eye, and Lahabrea was left easy pickings to get his soul eaten by a cunning God-King primal that he helped created.

It seems pretty clear that for all their swagger, the Ascians are not as indestructible as they first appeared, and do not have have things under control as much as they think they do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

But if there's a seventh cycle, one might wonder if we're following the same cycle as the week (which has eight days, six elements + two polarities). In that cycle, Astral comes first (so too with months), but umbral eras precede astral ones. One might ask, "Is this then the Umbral Era of Astral (Light) and we need to end this before the Umbral Era of Umbral (Darkness)?"

---

That's what I was thinking about but Bahamut isn't really related to astral and is usually a non elemental summon, well he do have shiny skills with Tera Flare and Akh Morn but nothing in the game really points that way. It could be that non elemental can also be considered as an element or a combination of all elements and once all elemental calamities are unleashed, then the only thing remaining to be unleashed on the land of Hydaelyn's light is the Zodiark's darkness.

There is still a lot we don't know about these calamities, except that the mortals are awakening more easily to their spiritual parts and possibly to the echo, maybe the last calamity will completely break the separation between the aetherial realm and the physical realm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualblade

(though I'm still sure Lahabrea will find a way back.)

---

Agreed. The fact that Thordan's blade didn't disappear along with the rest of him is pretty ominous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Astral this, Umbral that. Light, Dark.

---

I think this is on the right track, but I think light has it's own cycle. We are astral now, the WoL is on the rise, everything seems to be going our way when we get our hands in things, but the scales are tipping. As with each elemental cycle, the Light's cycle will one way or another be brought down by light and we will go through a light umbral phase (as backwards as that sounds, astral and umbral are kind of just words to throw around meaning positive and negative). I am thinkthing Zodiark comes into play around the end of this era, ushering in the final phase of the cycle- the Dark era. There will then be a dark astral phase, followed by a dark calamity. If the dark umbral phase comes about then it is the end.

Pure speculation at this point, but before the servers shut down (hopefully not for a long time) we will see a calamity and maybe see a whole new world wrapped in darkness where Zodiark is in charge.