How to optimize DPS as a MT in HW (PLD)?

Hello, everybody. I'm struggling here to find a decent DPS rotation and avoid compromising my aggro generation. I leveled up DRK and I just got PLD to 60, been running some tests on dummies (As I know that's not enough). I now require your feedback as players who were playing the class since launch. Disclaimer: This is mostly for progression in 3 weeks, all the feedback is more than welcome.

What I tried:

Single target puller: Fight or Flight + Shield Lob + Spirits Within + Circle of Scorn + Fast Blade + Sheltron + Shield Swipe + Riot Blade + Goring Blade + Rage of Halone Combo + Royal Authority Combo.

I keep it up by having STR down 100% of the time, the Goring blade dot all the time and just spam Royal Authority. Using Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn whenever they're available. Also Sheltron to have a free Shield Swipe. With Shield Swipe now generating emnity, it helps a lot to keep up the DPS combos. I'm using 2 or 3 STR accesories, so the DPS that comes out from the emnity combos, can mantain certain level of aggro on the boss/monster.

What's your experience so far? How did you increase the DPS output while MTing?

If you can't remember which abilities combo off of each other, progression isn't for you.

Reread your opening rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ippiki

If you can't remember which abilities combo off of each other, progression isn't for you.

Reread your opening rotation.

---

That wasn't a very helpful? I mean, mistaking Savage Blade for Riot Blade was a light mistake I did because I was going to type something else. Mistakes happen, buddy. I'll correct it. Still waiting for some input.

As a casual player can someone please explain to me what so important about tank dps? I mean we are a tank we are meant to take punches in the face and survive especially as a MT.

I generally start with a pull with Fight or Flight > Shield Lob > Spirits Within & Circle of Scorn > Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Shelltron > Halone > Shield Swipe > Goring Blade combo > Royal combo > Halone Combo. I also make sure to keep Spirits and Circle on CD or saving it if I need it for some reason. I try to Shelltron at the end of a combo so I can use Shield Swipe as a filler in between combos. If I do get a shield swipe from natural blocking, I try to use it asap however as to not let it go to waste. Not sure if that's optimal or not, but I don't have any issues with my current rotation on enmity, debuff upkeep or DPS.

I found this order upkeeps both Halone and Goring 100% of the fight from the beginning. You can put out 2 combos before having to refresh Halone and the Goring dot. The shield swipe GCDs might mess with this a bit depending on how often you block/use shield swipe.

Paladin don't really need a high dps rate due to there stats . If you want to dps and put out a decent dps output whilst tanking try playing as warrior , with the new dps stance for warrior you can put out high dps that can match a monk or dragoon whilst still holding aggro easily . It takes a lil bit of practice to get your rotation sorted and being able to swap stances to have use of your cool downs but I find it a better tanking job due to the difficulty of it

Or just try some crafted gear with some determination melds it may help

Tank dps is for more hardcore raiding groups due to the time limit to boss enrage extra dps that the tank can output can be the decider of a clear or a wipe due to the content needing to be done almost perfect pre echo

Warriors got a dps stance.
Paladins got a 540 potency attack over 24 seconds and a 340 potency attack they can use every 6 seconds. According to Xeno (one of the best warriors around) his co tank Paladin does the same damage as him as an OT as long as there is no AOE involved.

Paladins dont put up flashy numbers, but sword oath is amazing, and in 2.0 were held back by having very low potency combos (halone only being 260 potency). Consider that royal authority has nearly 100 more potency, or 60 more than butchers block (about 18% more damage). Goring blade is the main sexy through, being a 540 potency attack you can use every third rotation (basically a fel cleave every 8 gcds).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeaturalBomber

Tank dps is for more hardcore raiding groups due to the time limit to boss enrage extra dps that the tank can output can be the decider of a clear or a wipe due to the content needing to be done almost perfect pre echo

---

Ok that is a fair enough answer.

Cyrus, that's not your only mistake.

Opening with Goring Blade has no bonus Enmity, and further delaying your Halone with Swipe doesn't help much either. Do we have concrete numbers yet on Shield Swipes additional enmity?

A good PLD pull would be like this:
Shield Lob(FoF), Fast Blade(SW + CnS), Savage Blade(Bloodbath or a defensive CD to smooth intake) Halone, then Goring.

Check threat after you place Goring, if DPS are getting high, Halone, if you're safe, then replace Halone after a Royal. Use Shield Swipe only as a TP saving tool, and it's ok to clip Goring Blade at 5-6 seconds due to the potency being so much higher than Royal.

Cyrus, that's not your only mistake.

Opening with Goring Blade has no bonus Enmity, and further delaying your Halone with Swipe doesn't help much either. Do we have concrete numbers yet on Shield Swipes additional enmity?

A good PLD pull would be like this:
Shield Lob(FoF), Fast Blade(SW + CnS), Savage Blade(Bloodbath or a defensive CD to smooth intake) Halone, then Goring.

Check threat after you place Goring, if DPS are getting high, Halone, if you're safe, then replace Halone after a Royal. Use Shield Swipe only as a TP saving tool, and it's ok to clip Goring Blade at 5-6 seconds due to the potency being so much higher than Royal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shinros

As a casual player can someone please explain to me what so important about tank dps? I mean we are a tank we are meant to take punches in the face and survive especially as a MT.

---

Their is more then one way to approach fights, tank dps as some one stated can also correlate to time limit checks in raid, Efficiency, and people aiming improve their gameplay by Challenging themselves to be better and more wellk rounded player by experimenting with different play styles.

That being said, one should always focus on maintaining their main function of threat and damage mitigation prior to looking into improving their dps. Dps will improve with experience and understanding of the mechanics of the fight and their class. In my opinion at least

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ippiki

Cyrus, that's not your only mistake.

Opening with Goring Blade has no bonus Enmity, and further delaying your Halone with Swipe doesn't help much either. Do we have concrete numbers yet on Shield Swipes additional enmity?

A good PLD pull would be like this:
Shield Lob(FoF), Fast Blade(SW + CnS), Savage Blade(Bloodbath or a defensive CD to smooth intake) Halone, then Goring.

Check threat after you place Goring, if DPS are getting high, Halone, if you're safe, then replace Halone after a Royal. Use Shield Swipe only as a TP saving tool, and it's ok to clip Goring Blade at 5-6 seconds due to the potency being so much higher than Royal.

---

I highly disagree here. Paladins should be opening with the Goring Blade combo now and be trying to get two Gorings in with the opener FoF.

A FoF shield lob + CoS + Spirits + Fast Blade is plenty of aggro at the start where DDs are still ramping up their damage as well. A shield swipe after the first Goring will solidify this and give you plenty of time to move into the Halone combo. I've been doing this with a ~900 average DPS Monk in my party and I have never come close to losing aggro.

The only exception to this might be fights like Ravana Ex where you likely want to get the STR debuff from Halone on him sooner than later.

[edited because I'm a dummy and didn't reread the OP before posting]

You need to know how to do your DPS, then adjust how much aggro you need to build based on your partys aggro generation. Running dungeons I typically open with Gore Blade combo on bosses and still have plenty of aggro; from there I'll either Halone or stick to Royal Authority depending on whether or not the party's getting close on aggro.

If DPS is bursting aggro, or if I'm uncertain, then I open with Halone, but generally speaking its a priority order for single target. Do I need more aggro? Halone combo. If no then I'm prioritizing Goring DoT from combo over RA combo and only worrying about Halone when aggro generation is required. SW and CoS sit on CD at all times, and Fight or Flight is up front as my first skill which may or may not be ideal DPS-wise (more likely there's a place for it to fit where you can squeeze in an additional Royal Authority instead of a Fast Blade) after which it's kept on CD.

If I open with shield oath I go:

Lob > FoF > spirits > fast > CoS > riot > sheltron > goring > swipe > halone combo

If sword oath tanking then I open with halone to goring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shinros

As a casual player can someone please explain to me what so important about tank dps? I mean we are a tank we are meant to take punches in the face and survive especially as a MT.

---

1. We're factored in by the developers into the damage calculations for raid DPS, stated in a live letter from the creator of the game.
2. More damage = more hate
3. More damage = monster dead faster = less damage you take. This is easily seen in almost any mass pull as when you start killing off mobs, it becomes drastically easier for the healer to keep the tank up.

With the new skills, Shield Swipe is actually an overall dps loss, I believe. It's useful as a way to conserve TP and gain a bit of extra enmity.

PLD dps is a pretty simple priority system. Keep up STR Debuff, keep up Goring Blade DoT, Royal Authority when those don't need to be refreshed, Halone if you need more enmity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stoxastic

With the new skills, Shield Swipe is actually an overall dps loss, I believe. It's useful as a way to conserve TP and gain a bit of extra enmity.

PLD dps is a pretty simple priority system. Keep up STR Debuff, keep up Goring Blade DoT, Royal Authority when those don't need to be refreshed, Halone if you need more enmity.

---

Potency wise it is a decrease compared to royal and goring but still an increase over halone. The emnity buff also allows for more royal spam.

Thanks everybody for their inputs! Sadly I can't try out shield swipe efficiency on a dummy, where I'm trying to get used to the new rotation. I'd assume it's a DPS loss since it takes a gcd which shortens the possibilities to re-appling the goring dot twice in the same pull. At the same time, Shield Swipe helps me to back-up my emnity generation and keeps me from doing an "oh-sh-" RoH because of the high DPS's emnity generation.

Alright, I've been running some tests, using STR gear (Shield Oath up) to make it more noticeable, excluding mentioning the off global cooldown skills as they are used the same way no matter what rotation I use as a filler between cds, but as soon as possible to have them available early in the fight again.

1st rotation: Shield Lob then FoF -> Goring + RoH + Royal / 2:51 min testing until I run out of TP: 518 ~ 540 dps.
2nd rotation: Shield Lob then FoF -> RoH + Goring + Royal / 2:50 min test until I run out of TP: 500 ~ 515 dps.

Shield Swipe might actually decrease these numbers as its potency of 210 is lower than RoH (260), Goring (540, if I'm not wrong) and Royal Authority (Sick 340). It don't know if TP wise would be an issue to have Shield Swipe as a ready-to-use whenever it procs, because I used to spam it back in the day to keep it up with the DPS and save some TP. Specially in fights like Bahamut, where you're hitting that winged fire breathing pinata for a whole bunch of minutes.

As an OT: Pretty straight forward. No hate rotation here. Just keeping Goring dot up and spamming Royal Authority puts me above 740 ~ 766 DPS sustained over 3 min until I run out of TP.

All these numbers without food, party buff, without pots. I don't know if these numbers are good since everybody is busy parsing both wars and drks. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladon

Paladins should be opening with the Goring Blade combo now and be trying to get two Gorings in with the opener FoF.

---

If your DPS are any good (tip: MNK has slow rampup and 900 DPS is quite poor for single target) you will never be safe with Goring for threat.

If you have an enmity multiplier on Shield Swipe, please share it. Otherwise, the math looks like this.

1. Delaying Goring with Shield Swipe is a potency loss. Goring ticks for 40 potency every 3s, averaging 33 potency per GCD(this decreases as GCD decreases). Doing Halone instead of Goring to open is a massive threat lead, at the cost of 100 potency.

2. Delaying Goring with Shield Swipe will not let you apply Goring a second time under FoF. Unless your GCD is 2.0s or less for 24+ seconds, you are not able to Shield Swipe at all, during FoF, AND apply Goring a second time, ESPECIALLY if you have FoF up for the Shield Lob.

Cont.

3. Royal Authority is a better DPS option than risking Goring Blade\\'s lack of threat. The loss of not having Goring Blade up is 100 potency for the 3 GCDs it takes to apply Halone instead. The potency increase from Halone to Royal is 80. The potency per GCD of a Royal combo is 230, a 20 potency increase from Shield Swipe, adding up to the 100 discrepancy.

In conclusion:
Opening with Goring is less threat, a DPS loss if you have to Shield Swipe even once, and delays Halone\\'s Str Down.

The optimal PLD pull is Halone, Goring, Royal, at which point, you might even have enough threat for a second Royal(under FoF).

Please stop FoF'ing your shield lobs, your lowest potency attack

Main Tank:
Shield Lob > FoF + CoS > Fast > Spirits > Savage > STR pot > RoH/RA > Bloodbath> Fast > Riot > Goring
Maintain goring, spirits/cos on cooldown, RA spam for damage, RoH to increase hate lead

Off Tank:
Fast > Spirits > Riot > wait till 50% of gcd to be over, then FoF > Goring > CoS > RA combo x2 > STR pot > RA combo x1 + Spirits + CoS > Goring Blade combo
Delaying FoF till right before goring will let you fit one more FoF'd + STR pot'd goring at the end of the cycle

If you have a ninja, you can open with pretty much whatever and still hold hate. Hell, you might be able to open in sword oath without issue.

Your mileage may vary on not dying a horrendous death without shield oath or halone debuff, of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shinros

As a casual player can someone please explain to me what so important about tank dps? I mean we are a tank we are meant to take punches in the face and survive especially as a MT.

---

It is possible to tune boss HP and DPS checks around tank (and healer) DPS in addition to what your MNKs, DRGs, BLMs and so on are contributing.

Not to mention that tank DPS goes hand in hand with enmity modifiers and thus help us hold aggro. The more DPS you do as a tank, the easier it is to hold aggro. Hence why a tank with a 142 weapon will sometimes have to do nothing but Halone combos to hold off aggro from a good DRG or BLM.