New primal questions... Spoilers!!!

I guess we were hinted this, but now we have new info and even more questions on the primals. Warning, i havent finished the story, so some of my info might be wrong that im trying to glean off the forums.
First, Ysale seems to not only summon Shiva, but she retains her own mind through the whole process. Ifrit and his ilk seem to have their own consciousness. This seemed like a point to bring up.
Ravana calls Shiva a goddess. We know her as Saint. So, is this just honorary or something more?
The Ixals are genetically engineered? So, what is Garuda? Is she a figment of their imagination or an actual Iksal who happened to become revered after she conumed the snake (naga)? Being a created organism, does that give you a "soul"? I guess i feel like the Garuda conspiracy opens up a whole plethora of questions. Thoguhts?

Based on new information, primals are little more than empty shades - thoughtforms. (Always go with your gut; you're just gonna overshoot it, lol.)

There are hints that there might be more to the Eikons, a term that the Garleans have apparently been misusing. Urianger suddenly has knowledge of this and says that it pertains to the "fate of this star," which is probably a very strong hint that he recently obtained said information directly from Elidibus.

The final dungeon seems to confirm that Ixal are a worker race created by the Allag, but one of the Hunter-scholars says that the Allag performed experiments with contemporary beastmen of their time, so it might be a modified version of the original Ixal for all we know. (He claims that the reptoids were a beastman race that were chimerically modified.)

I'm still gathering up all the information for theory-polish.

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Originally Posted by Eydaos

First, Ysale seems to not only summon Shiva, but she retains her own mind through the whole process. Ifrit and his ilk seem to have their own consciousness. This seemed like a point to bring up.

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This was explained back in 2.4. Ordinarily someone summoning a primal into their own body would be immediately tempered, thus it would effectively be no different than summoning as normal. In Ysayle's case, however, she possesses the Echo which makes her immune to tempering and thus retains control of her body even when it is occupied by the primal.

The question at this point is whether the Archbishop and his knights all possessed the Echo as well. All thirteen of them were capable of summoning using their own bodies as the vessels and they were all able to remain in full control, even entering and exiting the transformation at will. The only way I can see that being at all likely is if the ascians gave them all the Echo as they did with the sahagin priest yet I don't think it's ever explicitly stated.

Yeah, Fractal really throws some curveballs about the origins of species, among other things - there's an amazingly powerful implication that the Ixal are entirely genetically engineered and their skyborn "paradise" was originally their slave pen in Azys Lla. It opens up all sorts of worm-cans about how many races are "naturally-born" (we can now only absolutely say that about dragonkin, hyur, and elezen) versus how many might be the result of Allagan engineering gone wild. There's a similar insinuation that the Vanu-Vanu are originally from Azys Lla, too, or if not, that the Ixal are the result of horrific genone tampering on Vanu subjects. As with all things Allag, however, the remove of five millenia makes it a bit hard to nail down until something is stated directly. (What Azys Lla is better at for now is giving us a real good look at how Allagan society functioned and behaved...)

And yes, a "primal" is little more than an aether-ghost given form by the desire of the living beings calling it forth from the Lifestream. Ravana called Shiva a goddess because he sees himself as a god and knows Shiva to be the same manner of creature as he.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The question at this point is whether the Archbishop and his knights all possessed the Echo as well. All thirteen of them were capable of summoning using their own bodies as the vessels and they were all able to remain in full control, even entering and exiting the transformation at will. The only way I can see that being at all likely is if the ascians gave them all the Echo as they did with the sahagin priest yet I don't think it's ever explicitly stated.

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It is not. One can also infer that Thordan and company were going to Azys Lla to look into methods of better controlling their own primal forms, among other things (like tapping into the Triad for more aether so they didn't have to bleed the land).

Another quite possible theory stems from Thordan and the Heaven's Ward having that kind of "meta" knowledge about what primals are - because they seemed to know upfront what the true nature of the beings known as "primals" were (and thus had plans to provide Thordan with aether sources other than just draining the land, for example), it's possible the Heaven's Ward members took "primals" into themselves... in image of themselves-as-Thordan's-Twelve. Note, for example, that their names don't change when transformed. So does it really count as tempering if you get tempered to yourself? Final Fantasy metaphysics! How do they work. http://www.carpefulgur.com/gallery/emot-v.gif

This might just be conjecture, but I'm under the belief that if the Heavens' Ward and Thordan's "Primal Mode" transformations are really the same thing as a Primal summoning, it might just be that because they're sustained by the faith of Ishgardian citizens to "expunge any enemies that threaten the nation," anyone the Heavens' Ward perceives as a threat will still be attacked by their alter ego. It just looks like they're in control because the "Primal Mode" has the same basic goals, and we don't see anything of them outside combat.

Of course there's also the possibility they got Zodiark-Echo from the Ascians like the Sahagin chief, but we don't know that.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

This might just be conjecture, but I'm under the belief that if the Heavens' Ward and Thordan's "Primal Mode" transformations are really the same thing as a Primal summoning, it might just be that because they're sustained by the faith of Ishgardian citizens to "expunge any enemies that threaten the nation," anyone the Heavens' Ward perceives as a threat will still be attacked by their alter ego. It just looks like they're in control because the "Primal Mode" has the same basic goals, and we don't see anything of them outside combat.

Of course there's also the possibility they got Zodiark-Echo from the Ascians like the Sahagin chief, but we don't know that.

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We see enough to make that harder to believe.
The first case is for Haurchefant's death. That guy transforms pretty seamlessly and follows the same targeting.
Maybe he has the same goals, but that was very specific instead of the usual transform, then defeat the foes in front of you.

That can go either way, but the Archbishop's transformation - I can't see that being separate.
He transforms mid-conversation seamlessly. He even turns to us, and says that he's become a primal, that which we abhor.
He is identifying there with his original self there.
His whole out-of-combat speech there was clearly the same person, not some primal with similar goals.

This part is after Azys Lla though.
What's interesting in Azys Lla is that we don't know what they were there for or if they accomplished it. I assume they did since they left on their own terms, rather triumphantly.
I really want to know what they did during all that time in Azys Lla.
We chased them, then they show up in the end with the other Eye. The only thing I can think of is that the coffin was in Azys Lla. But that seems unlikely.

I don't doubt they had the Echo though.
They consorted and played the Ascians. It doesn't seem a stretch the Ascians gave each the Echo as they did the Sahagin chief.
I bet the Ascians thought them everything about the Primals, including how to control it with the given Echo like Iceheart did (and we know she was in complete control).
Lahabrea was too cocky. He didn't believe that his puppets could or would use what he gave them against him.

But again, they were in Azys Lla, as well, doing God(king) knows what.
I agree it can be inferred that it likely had something to do with controlling or powering up their primal forms.

What's weird is that Tiamat says something about dooming Bahamut to a fate worse than death while Hreasvelgr says that primals doesn't call any soul but is just a construct of the mind.

Why would Tiamat care about a fake Bahamut.

There is also this weird explanation as I heard about not being able to summon Ramuh Levia and Shiva Egi for some reason, as for anything link to primals I think I'll just go to "A wizard did it logic" and don't try to understand.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

We see enough to make that harder to believe.

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I'm of the opinion that the Sahagin elder gaining the Echo and blaming Elidibus was foreshadowing of this outcome. Elidibus gives someone the Echo, Lahabrea nurtures an Echo user until she can merge with a primal, and then the two of them show up behind the throne together. As far as story structure goes, it fits.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

What's interesting in Azys Lla is that we don't know what they were there for or if they accomplished it.

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Ish. Incidentally. I believe the plan was to stop relying on primals as big scary monsters and start using them tactically in response to the Warrior of Light's interference. By giving a primal's power to someone with loyalties, ambitions, and conflicts, supported by the power of Azys Lla, the potential for sowing chaos was more than enough to convince them it was worth taking another shot at taking down the Warrior of Light and getting the Rejoining back on track. Thordan, however, turned on them and that plan de-railed itself, and then we set it on fire just for good measure, but it did weaken the Flagship's hold on the warring Eikons, and now the Warrior of Darkness is coming to clean up the mess Elidibus is left with now that he's lost the power of the only other Ascian of this world. Chaos and Darkness on the way - mission accomplished... ish.... in a damage-control-ey kind of way.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Why would Tiamat care about a fake Bahamut.

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Honor and fidelity.

Bahamut was her soulmate, and in her despair at his loss she consorted with the Darkness and enabled a shade to wear his form as it went about playing a rather large role in the Ascians' plan to destroy the Crystal (the one her father has a pact with; the one I assume they're supposed to protect). Instead of dying strong and with dignity, she allowed his memory to be twisted into something villainous and hated and a symbol of everything they (and we) are meant to stand against. She murdered the legacy of her own beloved; she can't forgive herself.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Ish. Incidentally. I believe the plan was to stop relying on primals as big scary monsters and start using them tactically in response to the Warrior of Light's interference. By giving a primal's power to someone with loyalties, ambitions, and conflicts, supported by the power of Azys Lla, the potential for sowing chaos was more than enough to convince them it was worth taking another shot at taking down the Warrior of Light and getting the Rejoining back on track. Thordan, however, turned on them and that plan de-railed itself, and then we set it on fire just for good measure, but it did weaken the Flagship's hold on the warring Eikons, and now the Warrior of Darkness is coming to clean up the mess Elidibus is left with now that he's lost the power of the only other Ascian of this world. Chaos and Darkness on the way - mission accomplished... ish.... in a damage-control-ey kind of way.

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I actually meant the Archbishop and the Heavensward.
I sort of inferred that's what the Ascians were up to but the Heavensward seemed to have separated from them.
I'm curious what they were doing while away from the Ascians.

Thordan's entrance felt like the Heavensward gained or accomplished something in Azys Lla.
I don't think the Ascians expected the Archbishop to turn on them. That's obvious.
But it seems unlikely they led the Archbishop and Co. to just watch them rejoin. They must have had a carrot on a stick for their puppets.

Did the Heavensward get that carrot? Or did they know of a better carrot....perhaps a cake???
That's what I'm wondering about.

We have an idea of the Ascians, as you put it, but the Heavensward just shows up at the end, ganks Lahabrea (kill steal/secure) then goes says "Peace! I'm out!"
Where have you guys been? They were the ones we were actually chasing and trying to find out what they were up to.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm of the opinion that the Sahagin elder gaining the Echo and blaming Elidibus was foreshadowing of this outcome. Elidibus gives someone the Echo, Lahabrea nurtures an Echo user until she can merge with a primal, and then the two of them show up behind the throne together. As far as story structure goes, it fits.

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Yea, I absolutely agree with this.
There was a clear progression of events in that theme, which led to Lahabrea's own downfall.

Did we truly kill the KotR? The Archbishop is the only confirmed death, and this is not one primal like we've fought before, but a group of 13. Anyone who really wanted them back could in theory resummon King Thordan.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

Did we truly kill the KotR? The Archbishop is the only confirmed death, and this is not one primal like we've fought before, but a group of 13. Anyone who really wanted them back could in theory resummon King Thordan.

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They died too

Another possible reason Thordan and the Heavens' Ward don't show signs of tempering could be that the ritual the Ascians taught them didn't include the "tempering clause," so to speak. The main purpose of tempering is, arguably, to make the worshippers summon the Primal again and again to bleed the land of aether; since the Ascians knew Thordan and the Knights would use (and abuse) that power, there was no need to temper them.

Or perhaps it's got something to do with the "summoning into themselves" bit... maybe the Echo isn't needed to resist or prevent tempering if the Primal (though the Knights Twelve are more like demi-Primals) is summoned into a real person? /shrug

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Another possible reason Thordan and the Heavens' Ward don't show signs of tempering could be that the ritual the Ascians taught them didn't include the "tempering clause," so to speak. The main purpose of tempering is, arguably, to make the worshippers summon the Primal again and again to bleed the land of aether; since the Ascians knew Thordan and the Knights would use (and abuse) that power, there was no need to temper them.

Or perhaps it's got something to do with the "summoning into themselves" bit... maybe the Echo isn't needed to resist or prevent tempering if the Primal (though the Knights Twelve are more like demi-Primals) is summoned into a real person? /shrug

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It's been explicitly confirmed that Ysayle was only able to summon Shiva into her own body without being tempered because she had the Echo. Given that the ascians are clearly capable of giving the Echo to people the simplest explanation for Thordan and his Knights would then be that they were also gifted the Echo as part of their deal with Lahabrea.

We know of nothing so far to suggest it's possible to summon a primal that does not seek to temper. The first act of any independent primal that we've seen summoned has always been to temper people to solidify its source of worship and ensure it has slaves to keep bringing it crystals or other sources of aether. The tempering is essentially a part of their survival instinct. The only way to get around this element of their personalities that we've seen so far has been to use a mortal vessel with the Echo so as to suppress the actual mind of the primal.

Mmmm. Delicious deity discussion - my favorite topic.

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Originally Posted by StarDrake

It opens up all sorts of worm-cans about how many races are "naturally-born" (we can now only absolutely say that about dragonkin, hyur, and elezen) versus how many might be the result of Allagan engineering gone wild.

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Spoiler: Sylphs = Lalafell <_< >_>


It's good to see the lore forum hasn't descended into a second general discussion in my absence. I'll be back in the lore game just as soon as I finish catching up from my break.