Need some help in finding useful parsing comparisons for AST...

So I had a thought to measure benefit of AST buffs vs. WHM DPS vs. SCH DPS...

I don't have a DPS meter or the necessary classes leveled to 60 yet, but can someone test the following?

In ilev 150-180 (as long as it's consistent) I'd like to know the following values:

-Ideal BLM DPS with ilev 150-180 (ideal being ready to unload a full MP bar of fire spells) with the 10% damage or attack speed buff for 15sec (can also be another DPS class if you feel it would make a better comparison)

-With the same ilev, ideal SCH DPS for 30 sec (with and without Selene speed buff)

-With the same ilev, ideal WHM DPS for 30 sec

I want to try to determine how much extra DPS an AST is bringing to a party, assuming a 34% chance to boost that BLM's damage by 10% every 30 seconds with 2 cards in the pool that can do that.

Though much harder to test, I'd also like to see how much extra damage we can get from an expanded RR for Balance/Arrow on the whole party vs. Selene's buff.

These numbers would give us a better idea of whether or not we're giving the AST a fair shake.

Does anyone have a way to get these values in game?

Thanks in advance!

whether or not people give an astrologian a fair shake is going to make little difference. You can analyze graphs all you want but we will not be able to ultimately tell until alexader raid comes out next week.

I have done quite a few parses with my brother who is a machinist (yes i know they are trully weak right now) and his dps if I keep him as priority between extended and royal balance/spire/arrow has only jumped about 8%. maybe a 40 dps increase compared to me when I was a scholar main was easily hitting around 290-350 dps. If Astrologian support was strong enough to offset our inability to really do meaningful dps over keeping up 3 dots and a maelific II every chance i get a breath between constantly having to cast more heals then I could honestly say we are on par with the other healers.

I love astrologian and even if they were not buffed I only put out about 130 dps with my dots and a measily 8% dps boost being 40 at level 60 only puts me near 170-180 dps and that is assuming the cards go my way.

WHM doesn't have access to any usable DPS abilities in endgame now that healer gear doesn't have accuracy since all 3 DoTs have initial potencies, unless I'm mistaken as to how those abilities work.

SCH and AST both get access to 2 DoTs that ignore Accuracy (Bio and Bio II for SCH, Combust and Combust II for AST).

Bio and Combust have the same potency and duration, but Combust II has 10 more potency than Bio II. So AST's Combust II will deal 100 more potency in damage over the duration than SCH's Bio II since they both have a 30 second duration (~10 ticks).

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

WHM doesn't have access to any usable DPS abilities in endgame now that healer gear doesn't have accuracy since all 3 DoTs have initial potencies, unless I'm mistaken as to how those abilities work.

SCH and AST both get access to 2 DoTs that ignore Accuracy (Bio and Bio II for SCH, Combust and Combust II for AST).

Bio and Combust have the same potency and duration, but Combust II has 10 more potency than Bio II. So AST's Combust II will deal 100 more potency in damage over the duration than SCH's Bio II since they both have a 30 second duration (~10 ticks).

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This may be true, but casting both costs right at 10% of my total MP at i170. How often do you really think an AST will sacrifice that much MP for a tiny but of damage?

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

This may be true, but casting both costs right at 10% of my total MP at i170. How often do you really think an AST will sacrifice that much MP for a tiny but of damage?

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I can see that being a decisive factor for 1st time clears with AST + SCH. 450 + 240 = 690 potency...that's some hilarious amount of damage with both combusts, it's not tiny lol. Bio II ticks for about 245 damage full i170 with an i180 weapon meaning it roughly does 2450 damage. Bio ticks for about 265 every tick, meaning it's about 1470 total damage. Both SCH DoTs are 4k damage unbuffed (no foe requiem and stuff). Add in Combust and Combust II and you have almost 10k damage from both healers with a couple casts each, add in stuff such as Fey Wind and all the cards from AST and party damage further increases. WHM on the other hand, if things do not change regarding accuracy, will be forced to play the whack a mole healing role. What's gonna happen is: if Alexander happens to be EXTREMELY healing intensive (and when I say extremely I mean........EXTREMELY LOL) that your party receives 10k chunks of AOE damage and you are so desperate because you can hardly keep up with an AST + SCH (highly unlikely), a WHM might have a spot in 1st world clears.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

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So roughly 4k damage for 10% of my mana and sacrificing 2 global cooldowns, when every tank now wants to be a warrior and use deliverance to further boost overall dps. It doesn't work. Go try it. I spent 3 hours wiping in Bismarck EX because tanks refused to use defiance, then get pissed off because healers aren't doing enough damage. Tanks die because they "need more dps" and healers cant heal because they "needs more dps". The cards, absolute best cast scenario, every 1 minute the entire party gets 5% increased damage for a few seconds. Worst case, you keep getting junk that wont aid very much at all. The class is a joke, as well as this ludicrous notion that healers needs to be dps and tanks need to be dps.

Btw, 4k damage isnt crap anymore when several classes can hit more with a single swing.

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

So roughly 4k damage for 10% of my mana and sacrificing 2 global cooldowns, when every tank now wants to be a warrior and use deliverance to further boost overall dps. It doesn't work. Go try it. I spent 3 hours wiping in Bismarck EX because tanks refused to use defiance, then get pissed off because healers aren't doing enough damage. Tanks die because they "need more dps" and healers cant heal because they "needs more dps". The cards, absolute best cast scenario, every 1 minute the entire party gets 5% increased damage for a few seconds. Worst case, you keep getting junk that wont aid very much at all. The class is a joke, as well as this ludicrous notion that healers needs to be dps and tanks need to be dps.

Btw, 4k damage isnt crap anymore when several classes can hit more with a single swing.

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I was talking about 1st world clears and good static teams though. I've been farming bismark EX with my static and I can DPS in every phase, and trust me it does help a ton, especially with the green + blue dragon phase where the DPS can be tight if the dragons decide changing marks every time. I don't give a **** about what happens in bad teams, SE doesn't balance the game taking into account terrible players, stuff is balanced around what good players do, not around MT STR tank heroes or terribly inefficient players. 10k Damage from 4 dots is significant, it isn't crap my ass, one DPS at most can go up to 900 or 1k DPS per second so having 4 DPS at most would mean 4k DPS raid damage per second, a mere 2 dots from both healers equal more than 2 seconds of the damage of your entire raid , add those 2 dots 5-6 times and you are already pushing phases and going through stuff you wouldn't even smell otherwise, but you are free to spam cures in a boss that is only autoattacking a tank that is already being offhealed by a couple of regens or a fairy.

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Originally Posted by Ninimo_Babamo

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You're acting like healer DPS mattered for clears in the first place. You NEVER needed your Healer to DPS in all of 2.x to clear, because fights were balanced on the minimum iLvl for DPS.

New fights have been balanced for DPS with the fact that Healer can pump out significant amounts of DPS throughout a fight.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

WHM doesn't have access to any usable DPS abilities in endgame now that healer gear doesn't have accuracy since all 3 DoTs have initial potencies, unless I'm mistaken as to how those abilities work.

SCH and AST both get access to 2 DoTs that ignore Accuracy (Bio and Bio II for SCH, Combust and Combust II for AST).

Bio and Combust have the same potency and duration, but Combust II has 10 more potency than Bio II. So AST's Combust II will deal 100 more potency in damage over the duration than SCH's Bio II since they both have a 30 second duration (~10 ticks).

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I too am worried about accuracy and how it'll affect healers. I thought I remembered reading that SE WANTED healers to DPS when they had the chance (which beats standing there doing nothing).

Also, SCH can get 4 DoTs because they can also get Aero from CNJ. Their DPS is pretty amazing just with swapping into CS, dotting up then switching back to heal.

I think its too early to say anything about the accuracy on the new law gear, we just have to wait for the esoteric and Alexander gear, they might or might not have accuracy on them.

They said that for Alexander normal you don't need healers' dps. It will be required for Alexander hard tho.

So expect some accuracy on Alexander NM/Esoteric gear.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I too am worried about accuracy and how it'll affect healers. I thought I remembered reading that SE WANTED healers to DPS when they had the chance (which beats standing there doing nothing).

Also, SCH can get 4 DoTs because they can also get Aero from CNJ. Their DPS is pretty amazing just with swapping into CS, dotting up then switching back to heal.

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Aero and Miasma can't be applied to bosses if you don't have accuracy because they have a first-hit potency.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

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That's great and all seeing as you're a scholar. NOT an astrologian. How about you get the class to 60 before you come here and tell us how its supposed to be played.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

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This would be very difficult to parse because you need a base line level without buffs then another with buffs to even begin to decide how much of a boost cards are bringing to the table. As far as base line dps spells we are in line with WHM give or take a spell or two. Malefic II is almost equal to Stone II, Combust II is a little better than Aero III, and Gravity is on par with Holy.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I too am worried about accuracy and how it'll affect healers. I thought I remembered reading that SE WANTED healers to DPS when they had the chance (which beats standing there doing nothing).

Also, SCH can get 4 DoTs because they can also get Aero from CNJ. Their DPS is pretty amazing just with swapping into CS, dotting up then switching back to heal.

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I do remember about a year ago Yoshi-P said he felt healers role should be healing and not worrying about dps numbers. In another interview he basically says though he doesn't design content that require healers to dps but doesn't want to nerf dpsing out of the healers game style either: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ount-for-raids

I'm gonna use super baseline and generic math here:

Let's say you have Balance on a monk doing a base of 1000 dps for the fight. Let's say you have that 10% Balance Buff up for 30% of the fight's duration. 10% of 1000 is 100 and 30% of 100 is 30.

You've added 30 DPS to that monk's 1k DPS for the entire fight.

I know it's not the best but it gives an idea I guess.

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

They said that for Alexander normal you don't need healers' dps. It will be required for Alexander hard tho.

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Do you have a source on this? AFAIK they said fights are never designed around healer DPS, but that elite groups use healer DPS to make up for gear shortcomings (i.e., world/server first progression). Or just DPS shortcomings in general.