The lens through which we must view DRK when discussing its balance and problems.

While there's been a lot of discussion regarding DRK's place at the moment, it all seems greatly unfocused (and I'm well aware of the irony of this thread's existence amidst that criticism). The problem here is that we have a lot of people looking at DRK from places and perspectives that aren't particularly important to the discussion of balance (for example, people talking about its abilities in 4 man dungeons as an indicator of DRK's strengths in upcoming endgame content are a big offender here). So before any of us continue, I feel it's important to establish exactly what is important to discuss here regarding DRK and its balance with the other tanking classes and the rest of the game.

DRK's role in a party
First and foremost, the Dark Knight is a tank. Which means that it's job is to control enemy aggression, and absorb and mitigate damage to ensure that the rest of the party can perform their roles. The DRK's viability in any group is predicated upon its ability to perform this role. Moreover, its value in this role is based upon not only its ability to perform this role to a bare minimum, but also its ability to do so without encroaching on the performance of others beyond an acceptable degree.

In other words, in pertaining to value, while a DRK might be able to barely clear a certain encounter, if a PLD or WAR can do the same without putting as much stress on their party, the PLD or WAR will always be a superior option, and DRK will be considered without value to a party, and avoided in all cases (WAR 2.0 syndrome). The exception here comes when DRK offers something that might be worth the trade off in efficiency from other classes.
In this case, the common argument might be for its (supposedly, although yet to be properly measured as far as I've checked) higher damage output as a main tank. However, if the extra work required by the other party members ends up exceeding the extra efficiency of the DRK's damage output, then once again, DRK is left in dispensable position. It does not matter how skilled the DRK is, or how well they're capable of optimizing their own performance; if the hard limits of the DRK as a class end up causing the rest of the party to have to make extra concessions for them, then the class is inherently without value.
This is not to say that teamwork should be discouraged, but rather additional teamwork without any additional benefit leaves zero incentive when presented with the existence of superior, less stressful alternatives.

Next comes the issue of usability. Should the DRK be lacking in the tools to complete any single fight that would be standard fair for a PLD or WAR, then either the class or the game itself is broken on a fundamental level, and absolutely must be corrected. That is to say, while there might be certain fights that prefer certain combinations of classes, there should be no single encounter where DRK is left unusable. If any class is to be considered unusable for any single encounter, it should be considered that they might as well be unusable for any and all encounters for the purpose of playability.

So, looking at the concerns for the balance of DRK as a class, there are a few things we need to considered:

1. Is it usable in all content? Can we take DRK into any given raid, trial, or dungeon, at any difficulty level, and have it function to a baseline level (baseline being completion)? If there is even a single instance where DRK is to be considered unusable for reaching this baseline level, then there is already a serious, glaring weakness with the class, or a serious, glaring issue with the design of the notable encounters themselves.

2. Does the DRK have the tools to complete content consistently without requiring more assistance than other classes sharing its roll might have? If not, does it have other unique utilities that make it worth the requirement of this extra assistance? If, even at the highest level of play, the DRK does not provide benefits worthy of the extra effort involved by the rest of its party in keeping it alive, then the DRK has no value in its role in comparison to its peers.

Of course, that's quite a mouthful, and doesn't even begin to cover the subject of off-tanking in much depth (something which, personally, I feel that DRK is even weaker at), but I feel that the above would be a good primer before beginning to actually make suggestions regarding the balance of the class.

People like to think DRK isn't as good. What most don't realize is that as unreliable as it may be, Reprisal has it's place as the 2nd best debuff of all tanks.

People seem to forget that Reprisal STACKS with Warrior's debuff leading to a steady 10% and sometimes 20% reduction of ALL damage from a boss.

That includes AoEs whether they are avoidable or not. I don't know about you, but to me, that's pretty huge.

I'm going to put this out there: "DRK + WAR with DRK as MT will be the new meta for stable end-game raid farming"

Other combinations of tanks are highly focused on reducing damage taken only by the tank whereas I can see the combo of DRK + WAR having a permanent raid wide 10-20% mitigation from a boss's AoE.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

People like to think DRK isn't as good. What most don't realize is that as unreliable as it may be, Reprisal has it's place as the 2nd best debuff of all tanks.

People seem to forget that Reprisal STACKS with Warrior's debuff leading to a steady 10% and sometimes 20% reduction of ALL damage from a boss.

That includes AoEs whether they are avoidable or not. I don't know about you, but to me, that's pretty huge.

I'm going to put this out there: "DRK + WAR with DRK as MT will be the new meta for stable end-game raid farming"

Other combinations of tanks are highly focused on reducing damage taken only by the tank whereas I can see the combo of DRK + WAR having a permanent raid wide 10-20% mitigation from a boss's AoE.

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I really wouldn't want DRK anywhere near MT with its weak cooldowns. I'd much rather have a PLD somewhere for a 1.6k Divine Veil shield over a DRK MT for 10% reduction that isn't guaranteed.

Yes, it is worth considering that a lot of value in a raid environment comes from consistency. If you can't get that parry at the right time, Reprisal is completely worthless.

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Originally Posted by Launched

I really wouldn't want DRK anywhere near MT with its weak cooldowns. I'd much rather have a PLD somewhere for a 1.6k Divine Veil shield over a DRK MT for 10% reduction that isn't guaranteed.

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yeah, pld has all but earned it's place as "most stable tank ever. of all time."

DRK needs some re-balancing. the job is passable as it is now, but it's not on par with our axe and shield bearing equivalents.

Drk has some RNG elements (like all the new classes?).Drk has 6 abilities dedicated to regenerating Mana (Blood Weapon, Blood Price, Syphon strike, Carve & Spit, Soul Survivor).

Cross out their similarities and ignore efficiency at whats similar for a second..
Pld has a Shield, Cover, Shelltron, Divine Veil, Clemency, Tempered Will,
Drk has Sole Survivor, Scourge, Dark Mind, Blood price and Plunge? Eh... Its all rather selfish. Hell Blood price (and Sole survivor?)doesn't even really count. More importantly their "Selfish aspects" are of questionable value? A lot of attacks have been physical which puts Dark mind into question. Scourge is dps, whatever. Sole Survivor is for adds not bosses. Plunge makes you a better tank?

As far as mitigation goes their only hard advantage is Dark Mind, many skills are dedicated to making their mana work lol or doing damage. Unless Drks DPS is *that* good or Dark Mind is that useful, probably hard to justify them other the others.

If drk gains mitigation, it has to stand to lose damage and some of its aoe. Right now they excel DRAMATICALLY in many areas over both over tanks (certainly Paladin). If they begin to gain onto a paladins tankyness, then they need a rebalancing elsewhere. Dark Knight offense + aoe + more mitigation and utility would basically result in unbalance in the opposite direction. Keep that in mind when asking for buffs. This happened to some degree with the war rebalance--its was gain a little, give a little and since many DRKs never tanked seriously before, you should know that you guys are LEAGUES ahead of the other tanks in certain areas, so being behind in others makes sense on paper. I'm not saying you shouldnt gain more mitigation (I think you should) but you cant have your cake and eat it to. Paladin has next to no aoe and pathetic damage while main tanking compared to either tank, it gains mitigation and utility in return for that. War has damage and mitigation, but no group utility.

Do we even have damage numbers from top level tanks from across the board yet? PLD has some pretty high potency on Royal Authority and the best DoT of the tanks. WAR should be able to push some pretty extreme damage numbers with smart stance dancing as well. I haven't seen any numbers, from what I've heard, they're not so extremely far apart. At least, not nearly far enough to justify all the extra healer attention they need.

Moreover, it doesn't matter how much damage a tank does if they can't actually tank a boss. And although I haven't ventured to try it myself, I've only heard horrible things about the relationship between DRKs and Twintania.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

People like to think DRK isn't as good. What most don't realize is that as unreliable as it may be, Reprisal has it's place as the 2nd best debuff of all tanks.

People seem to forget that Reprisal STACKS with Warrior's debuff leading to a steady 10% and sometimes 20% reduction of ALL damage from a boss.

That includes AoEs whether they are avoidable or not. I don't know about you, but to me, that's pretty huge.

I'm going to put this out there: "DRK + WAR with DRK as MT will be the new meta for stable end-game raid farming"

Other combinations of tanks are highly focused on reducing damage taken only by the tank whereas I can see the combo of DRK + WAR having a permanent raid wide 10-20% mitigation from a boss's AoE.

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That will make them quite useless indeed regarding that debuff if you happen to get two Dark Knights though, especially considering the offtank won't be able to get a proc if it's a single boss.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

People seem to forget that Reprisal STACKS with Warrior's debuff leading to a steady 10% and sometimes 20% reduction of ALL damage from a boss.

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Do you have any proof of this, I know both debuffs can be active but that doesn't mean it's actually working properly, have any tests been done to confirm?

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Originally Posted by Faytte

If drk gains mitigation, it has to stand to lose damage and some of its aoe. Right now they excel DRAMATICALLY in many areas over both over tanks (certainly Paladin). If they begin to gain onto a paladins tankyness, then they need a rebalancing elsewhere. Dark Knight offense + aoe + more mitigation and utility would basically result in unbalance in the opposite direction. Keep that in mind when asking for buffs. This happened to some degree with the war rebalance--its was gain a little, give a little and since many DRKs never tanked seriously before, you should know that you guys are LEAGUES ahead of the other tanks in certain areas, so being behind in others makes sense on paper. I'm not saying you shouldnt gain more mitigation (I think you should) but you cant have your cake and eat it to. Paladin has next to no aoe and pathetic damage while main tanking compared to either tank, it gains mitigation and utility in return for that. War has damage and mitigation, but no group utility.

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The thing is being the best aoe damage tank is a completely meaningless distinction, what fight does that actually matter? No one cares about performance in four mans, that is not and should never be relevant to the discussion. It's why it was fine that BLM got a single target buff despite being kings of aoe, because realistically that's not a very important skill on the majority of encounters.

Your last sentence is crazy though, WAR has no group utility? Storm's Path is the best tank utility in the game. Storm's Eye is icing on the cake.

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Originally Posted by TheCount

That will make them quite useless indeed regarding that debuff if you happen to get two Dark Knights though, especially considering the offtank won't be able to get a proc if it's a single boss.

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Same goes for double war/ double pld since those debuffs don't stack either. What's your point? :/

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

The thing is being the best aoe damage tank is a completely meaningless distinction, what fight does that actually matter? No one cares about performance in four mans, that is not and should never be relevant to the discussion.

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Quality of life. That's DRK's forte. Ground Placement DoT, a gap closer, a ranged AOE, and more oGCDs than a Dragoon can shake a spear at. Things PLD/WAR know they'll never have :D

But

Warrior has Slashing buff, Damage Down debuff (both 100% up-time), and absurd DPS.

PLD has better self mitigation, much unique party-wide support, and a STR Down debuff -- also 100% up-time (DRK Delirium INT-Down false equivalency responses incoming!).

DRK has QoL, but like AST, it is not fitting into optimized raid configurations as well as it should. With Tank/Healer roles, there's no middle road. Raids go with the best until over-gearing and Echo allow otherwise.

I think that drk needs some re-balancing, but i don't think that it's as bad as people are claiming it to be. It has virtually the same cool downs as 2.0 PLD and Warrior's damage from 2.0. With how their debuff for reprisal work and on parries. Dark Arts also seem to increase everything dramatically in terms of damage. Not a level 60 yet, but I can see them starting off the fight and basically throwing threat up through the roof, tank swapping when a mechanic goes off and then switching out into full DPS mode. To me, they look like a professional OT for raids.

Shadow skin = Rampart
Shadow wall = sentinel
Dark mind = free unique added bonus to the job.

The rest of GLA'S old (2.0) defensive abilities can be brought over. So I don't know why people are trying to claim that DRK can't take a hit, when virtually it's PLD just minus a shield. I just wish SE would have given them lancer's abilities instead of mrd.

Only thing it truly seems to be missing is the same thing DRG was missing until recently, something to benefit the group in terms of raid utility since it crosses over with monk's Dragon kick.

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Originally Posted by Seku

So I don't know why people are trying to claim that DRK can't take a hit, when virtually it's PLD just minus a shield. I just wish SE would have given them lancer's abilities instead of mrd.

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I agree some are exaggerating their squishiness a bit, but why do people keep saying stuff like this as if not having a shield isn't a big deal. The shield is part of the reason PLD is so durable. It's incredibly strong passive mitigation going on constantly, and it just got better in 3.0 with shelltron.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Same goes for double war/ double pld since those debuffs don't stack either. What's your point? :/

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My point is that it would be even more useless than those instances, since reprise can't be reliably kept up. The only good point about it is that it stacks with other damage debuffs.

If it isn't clear yet:

Let's assume you have a double war. You won't be able to benefit doubly from it but at least it can be kept up as much as they want.

Now let's assume you have a double drk. Not only is it impossible to keep up for them, one can't even apply it to begin with because you need a parry for it. So not only can't they stack with eachother obviously they also can't reliably keep the debuff applied for the life of them.

Storms Path and Reprisal, is it additive or multiplicative?

I do think Flash needs a damage component added to it. However DRK needs a lot of buffs. Flash should do at least 80-100 potency. Just because of how new content works, maybe a trait that adds damage to flash?

I see a lot of people saying DRKs have a big advantage (or at least a noticable one) in damage vs other thanks.

Anyone have hard numbers to prove this? Or is it all just by feeling?

And secondly...the main purpose of a tank is to...tank. Does having the best damage really matter in that case?

Hard numbers tbh aren't so definite atm, Heavensward is not being friendly to ACT -- whether it's for the new jobs or the original ones. If someone is having better luck.. wooops wrong forum. but there's also a lot of aspects to factor just having a level cap, stat weights changes, rotations, etc etc before accurate comparisons can be made

The DRK DPS advantage - if any - would only be when MT

It's an easy bet to place that Warrior still sits the throne at OT if they're effectively zerking triple FCs.

I also feel that it's worth mentioning that PLD DPS isn't actually as terrible as a lot of people make it out to be. I honestly expect all the tanks will be fairly close as MT. DRK might outstrip WAR and PLD by a bit, but I don't think it'll be by much.

Hard numbers come from end game content currently, mostly from streams, or hell even peoples own goes at it. Look at Xenosys's streams for example, as a Warrior he pulls crazy DPS, more than Chet as a Drk does (If I remember correctly). Or hell more than even some DPS.

Drk does good DPS, there is no doubting that, but Warrior still pulls ahead, even if by just a little bit.

Paladin damage isn't bad either nowadays, they're keeping up fairly well. Rumor currently is that Paladins can do as much damage as Warriors on single target. If that's true, which I cant confirm it is, then that puts Drk in an even worse position, as that means they're likely out DPS'd by Paladins as well.

Biggest problem with Drk DPS though is our lack of methods to restore our TP. A War should never have TP problems nowadays, but a Drk can blow all of it's TP in just a few Blood Weapons. Last boss of Fractal for example, I tank without Grit, in full slaying. I can get pretty high, often times I'm either highest on the list or in second (Assuming the DPS isn't a Drg or a Monk going in hard), but that all ends the instant I run out of TP, which is only like halfway into the fight.

Also, sadly, quality of life does not make a tank, lol.

This is generally overblown. A DRK while tanking will do the most damage of the three tanks (keeping grit/shield oath/defiance on). When you swap to OT, things differ, and in this case yeah--DRK might need some help here. They have no good steroid (blood weapon is about it!) but while tanking, they certainly will out damage either other tank (DRK do about 92% of their damage between dark side and grit, where paladins are lower and wars are only 1% ahead with defiance + maim, HOWEVER---dark has MUCh better potency on their attacks that more than make up for that).

Dark has a great niche atm for aoe damage, and in general, small party tanking (i think better than either other tank in dungeons) but are held back by being better mostly due to lots of wasted abilities or duplicate powers, high mana costs and some things being gated behind dark arts that shouldnt be.

It needs some help as an off tank, and some ability clean up for certain.

I can see why this turned into a discussion about what they're capable of putting out damage wise MT status, but I don't think anyone's actually complaining about DRK's damage at all. That's NOT the problem with DRK AT ALL. We've been through almost 10-15 threads talking about the same thing over and over again about what is -essentially- the issue with DRK. Save a few reworking of abilities(everyone's opinions seem to differ more or less how to implement, but on the right path), DRK doesn't seem to offer anything of big value when it comes to end game content that the other two tanks can simply do better. Their toolkit OVERALL is weak. The job is fine for dungeons, passable for end game, but simply beaten in the long run when put up against the other two veteran tanks.

What kind of WAR these days won't be switching inbetween stances for maximum efficiency? Additionally, you're leaving out Storm's Eye, which in addition to increasing the WAR's damage, also provides utility to other slashing classes. Top level WAR has the potential for some crazy damage output.

I'm sitting at 53 DRK right now. As a veteran Paladin and somewhat WAR, I have to say that the job seems pasaable, but there aren't enough cooldowns to use Dark Arts with.

As for TP Problems we should be able to Dark Arts - Blood Price to gain a goad-like effect, and we should be able to Dark Arts - Automatically proc Reprisal for better off-tank capabilities. I think these two simple changes would put DRK in a position to shine as an optional off tank to Warrior or even comboed with Warrior for more Tank combination options.

You'll get enough skills for Dark Arts to go through soon enough. Dark Passenger and Carve and Spit go through enough MP as it is.

I'm really enjoying DRK, and its cooldowns are being called into question a lot so I wanna comment on that;

The first thing I've noticed is the massive potential uptime on these CDs. Dark Dance and Dark Mind have only 60s cooldowns, and if you popped those together on T13 with the latter having a DA buff that'd have gotten you through Flatten Breath, maybe with a Foresight thrown in as well for safety.

Speaking of Foresight, DRK not only gets its cooldowns but also gets two from each of PLD and WAR, and while BB/Conva/Awareness/Foresight are not ever gonna save your life from anything, they all had their place in endgame cooldown rotations and do mitigate damage over the course of an encounter. When you pop two of them at once you have a sorta-decent cooldown. In fact, if you stack any one of those with Dark Mind + Dark Dance, with DA boosting one of them depending on what kind of hits are gonna be more prominent in the mechanic (magical or physical) you have a very beefy mitigation tool that is essentially on a measly 1-minute cooldown. And that's without even touching either of what are considered *actual* mitigation cooldowns (Shadowskin and Shadow Wall).

DRK also has a Shield Oath and not a Defiance. And I dunno about you guys but I see Reprisal proc a LOT. I think DRK may have an innately higher parry rate, although I'm not sure. I have little trouble keeping it up on bosses, and Delirium's DK effect is fantastic as well.

In endgame content with big tank busters I see a DRK MT having to push a lot more buttons but basically achieving the same level of mitigation. They have some great self heals (imagine 1-2K DA Souleater heals o.o) as well. If you stack cross class cooldowns with the cooldowns they already have they can definitely eat some big hits.

I haven't found anyone that's wanting to screw around in old raid content for testing, but if I were to go into T13 (I'm using this as an example cause it has the biggest tank busters in the game thus far), with my DRK as MT, here's the rotation I'd use (assuming staple things like Viruses, Eye for an Eyes, and so forth):

Flatten #1 - Shadow Wall + Convalescence
Flatten #2 - Shadowskin + Dark Dance - DA Dark Mind after hit for breath

Phase 2 (This assumes only 2 Flattens in Phase 1):
Flatten #3 - Foresight + DA Dark Dance + Convalescence
Flatten #4 - Living Dead
Flatten #5 - Dark Dance + Shadow Wall

Phase 3:
Pain #1 - Foresight + DA Dark Dance
Gusts x3 - Awareness + Foresight
Sin - Convalescence

Storm of Meracydia:
Death Sentence #1 - Shadow Wall
Death Sentence #2 - Shadowskin + Foresight + Awareness

Akh Morn #1 - DA Dark Mind + Convalescence

Akh Morn #2 - Shadow Wall

Akh Morn #3 - DA Dark Mind + Shadowskin

Akh Morn #4 - Living Dead + possibly Bloodbath and a DA Souleater or two to help the healers get the buff off of you

Akh Morn #5 - DA Dark Mind + Shadowskin + Convalescence

-with Dark Dance, Foresight, and Awareness kept on CD as Akh Morn ends for concurrent/subsequent autos. Cool thing about this? no tank swap/holmgang-cover required. DA Dark Mind is OP. :D Also note that due to the shorter CD and the way Living Dead works, you have a degree of leeway in precasting it, and the actual cooldown doesn't kick in until the lethal blow does, which is actually a fantastic design for things like Akh Morn. So you see, if it could have performed pre-3.0 it can most likely perform now without issue, its just a matter of people getting used to the choice between 3 tanks. On top of that, DRK would most likely be doing just as much damage as the PLD WITHOUT any DA boosted hits, as keeping Fight or Flight on CD equals out to about the same degree of damage. (30% for 30s out of 60s CD comes out to 15% on average, same as 100% uptime on Darkside).