Why play Machinist over Bard?

I am asking extremely seriously here.

What does the Machinist bring that Bard doesn't? Aside from more mind numbing RNG in an apparent "1-2-3" combo.

More damage? No. Look and compare the numbers and the ease of getting them for Bard, the Bard STOMPS on MCH in damage.

More utility? Sure the 5% mind rend or dismantle on a 90s cooldown really really is worth it, especially worth taking up two separate skill slots. That is sarcasm.
(Especially when Bard gets in the same level a 240 potency spammable off gcd ability! Yay 5%!)

So someone tell me, why would a machinist be desirable lategame? Why would you ever pick it over a Bard given the choice?
It seems that Bard does everything a machinist can do but significantly better.


I see Bard having lower cooldowns, higher damage (Way higher. WAY HIGHER) and actually useful utility and all the same skills that are "amazing for machinist". Snare, silence? Yep, Bard has them. Slow? Can go Keen flurry if you're that desperate from lancer.

Skill lists:
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Bard

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Machinist


*This is separate from my other thread because that was my gameplay feelings/thoughts on it. THIS thread I am asking THE COMMUNITY to find some answer to this question: Why ever pick Machinist over Bard? This isn't involving my feelings, this is involving hard cold numbers and utility brought by each class in their skills.

I said this to my FC and I'll say it again here. This seems more like a ramification from when nin got released, if you recall when nin came out it was unbelievably OP had the highest damage in the game, all the mobility, and not really any downside. Well this time around it seems they were trying to avoid that and ended up with classes that are under-powered, as I seem to recall reading somewhere about how drk feels under-powered as well. So I would say though it probably isn't worth it right now, it will probably have some benefits and be a better dps in the future. But for that we'll have to wait til they figure out how they're gonna rebalance everything, so ummm give it a month or so.

Bard's are pretty much losing their mobility at lv60, so in reality MCH is the new BRD and BRD is the new physical spellcaster.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

More damage? No. Look and compare the numbers and the ease of getting them for Bard, the Bard STOMPS on MCH in damage.

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Just gonna point out, taking a job that has been around for almost 2 years, of which, all the ins and outs have been discovered, that people have had ample time to polish up an ideal dps rotation for, and comparing it's dps to a job that has been in the game for less than 24 hours, and that only a small hand full of people, even have at or beyond 50, is just irresponsible.

i think just play what you enjoy playing....I am sure ppl play a job not only because of high numbers.
I think what you said could be just balance issue, shouldn't stop ppl from playing MCH.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Just gonna point out, taking a job that has been around for almost 2 years, of which, all the ins and outs have been discovered, that people have had ample time to polish up an ideal dps rotation for, and comparing it's dps to a job that has been in the game for less than 24 hours, and that only a small hand full of people, even have at or beyond 50, is just irresponsible.

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No one has even had a chance to take MCH into a raid and all of their first impressions are off of the first 10-15 levels of the job itself. Once people have time to actually put it in Coil or Alex we will know if its actually gimped. The people crying about it being useless are the ones who only wish to pad their DPS numbers and are typically found standing still focusing directly on their action bars and nothing else (The bad players).

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

Bard's are pretty much losing their mobility at lv60, so in reality MCH is the new BRD and BRD is the new physical spellcaster.

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Gauss Barrel

Equips your current firearm with a gauss barrel, increasing damage dealt by 20%. While barrel is equipped, all auto-attack will stop and all weaponskills will require casting time.
Effect ends upon reuse.

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MCH has its own version of Wanderer's Minuet, so nobody is the new BRD.

My only concern is that I can't tell the radius of the turret tp/mp regen, but if it is anything like the radius of the graphic...it is way, way too small to compete with paeon/ballad.

You are looking at numbers and not actual play. Currently a level 52 MCN, the class is very burst with a lot of cooldowns with short cooldowns. It is very easy to say oh look at this napkin math and look at potency numbers, but it will be a few more weeks till we see the difference. Even if it is underpowered, that just means buffs are coming.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

OP Snip

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Why pick Machinist? Easy.
The rotation is more than just DoT+DoT->Bloodletter/Heavyshot macro with the occasional Straight Shot for the buff.

The RNG on Split/Slug/Clean Shots is what makes t fun. Utilizing Reloads at the right times, throwing down the Turret properly, re-positioning it when required, keeping up buffs and debuffs and using cooldowns properly is all much more fun to me.
Also, Machinist gets all the cooldowns BRD does, so you can't even argue it has better burst, because RS+BfB+Reload+RF has better damage than RS+BfB-> Heavy Shot spam.

So BRDs will be chosen by people who enjoy BRDs and MCH will be chosen by people who enjoy MCH.
As it should be, as it will be and as it was designed to be.

Though BRDs will finally have a little variety at 60 with the Minuet and Sidewinder? shaking things up a bit.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

MCH has its own version of Wanderer's Minuet, so nobody is the new BRD.

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From the 1-2-3 proc combo only 1 has cast time, and rapidfire quits the cast time from 3 spells

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Why pick Machinist? Easy.
The rotation is more than just DoT+DoT->Bloodletter/Heavyshot macro with the occasional Straight Shot for the buff.

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And monks all ignore positionals and spam bootshine.

Because its fun?

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

And monks all ignore positionals and spam bootshine.

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Straight Shot -> Venomous Bite -> Windbite -> Bloodletter ->Heavy Shot
Flaming Arrow when not on CD. Straight Shot on crit proc, refresh DoTs, keep spamming Heavy Shot. Cycle through cooldowns.

So no, your sarcasm doesn't work because i was correctly describing the BRD rotation.
Heavensward's post 50 abilities DO shake up the BRD a bit, granted but i don't have those yet since my BRD is still 50.

Yeah, sadly MCH is seriously underpowered right now. There is no reason to bring a MCH over a BRD if you are looking to maximize the DPS potential of your group. If you're just looking to have fun and don't really care about how people perform, then sure, bring whatever you'd like. As it sits right now, any group with a MCH is just losing potential by not having a BRD instead.

Have you taken account for the damage the turret provides? Even with gauss attachment making auto attacks null that turret is still doing constant damage. Plus you can buff it. With that in mind you'll probably break even with a BRD. I hear BRDs complain that SMN out damage them with wanderers minute playing. Time will tell what's better than what. I know I'm happy with MCH it's a fun and new change of pace.

My one and only gripe right now is MCH not having access to Pugilist cross class skills as well. From the always-useful Internal Release to the near-essential/QoL Second Wind, this allows Bards to have the edge, especially survival wise.

EVERY other physical DPS can use Second Wind. Don't throw a wrench in our works.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

My one and only gripe right now is MCH not having access to Pugilist cross class skills as well. From the always-useful Internal Release to the near-essential/QoL Second Wind, this allows Bards to have the edge, especially survival wise.

EVERY other physical DPS can use Second Wind. Don't throw a wrench in our works.

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Crossclass from PGL instead of what? I rather have HE/RS from bard or invig/B4B from drg than give either of those up for IR/Wind/Mantra.

For me, its usually about the feel of a class and animations in relation to the GCD. With bard the animations seemed so quick, that i found myself mashing keys, unlike say, my dragoon where the combo animations just seem to flow one GCD into the next. MCN feels a bit more like it fits with the GCD than bard did, for me, that means a whole lot less button mashing.

Again, for me.

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Crossclass from PGL instead of what? I rather have HE/RS from bard or invig/B4B from drg than give either of those up for IR/Wind/Mantra.

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There's no instead implied. I did say "as well". I had ALL those skills and used them all as a Bard. Machinist is just completely locked out of the Pugilist skills by design. I say why make them the one physical DPS exception?

MCH does not have archer as a base class and jobs can only cross-class from two classes. I'll say archer is all but required due to range but also it's the best dps cooldowns in the game. While pulling crossclass skills from a melee class doesn't really seem right, we're stuck with it. That leaves lancer, pugilist, and rogue as the second class to pull abilities from. I agree with Sasaki in that I'd rather have LNC, but there's also the lore supporting it what with Ishgard's ties to the whole lancer/dragoon thing. Pugilist and rogue make absolutely no sense at all.

Despite that, I do miss Second Wind and wish we had something to alleviate that cause I'm using a lot of potions. Why can't it be something like a different skill special to MCH, such as a med-kit skill that behaves the same way?

Citing lore reasons, Archer and Lancer make perfect sense. But in the end, it does leave us a bit lacking for self support. Perhaps some kind of First Aid function could've been built into the Aetherometer we carry, but alas, we do or die. . . Seems perfectly Ishgardian, lol.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

There's no instead implied. I did say "as well". I had ALL those skills and used them all as a Bard. Machinist is just completely locked out of the Pugilist skills by design. I say why make them the one physical DPS exception?

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Every job can only crossclass from 2 classes. If it were for a crossclass buff, I'd let MCN just use Straight Shot from bard.

One change I hope they make is make Quick Reload like Bard's Bloodletter. Cooldown refreshed on crits.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I am asking extremely seriously here.

What does the Machinist bring that Bard doesn't? Aside from more mind numbing RNG in an apparent "1-2-3" combo.

[/U]

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Different playstyle fit the players. MCH fits my playstyle not BRD sadly.

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Originally Posted by Zumocano

Despite that, I do miss Second Wind and wish we had something to alleviate that cause I'm using a lot of potions. Why can't it be something like a different skill special to MCH, such as a med-kit skill that behaves the same way?

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Interestingly I haven't really had to use any potions on my Machinist. Then again I have a healer spec'ed Chocobo, so that tends to keep me at relatively close to full health no matter what I am doing. The only times I wish I had Second Wind are in Solo Instances that I can't bring my Chocobo into. In Dungeons I almost always have a healer with me to alleviate that problem.

I will say that ever since they nerfed Rain of Death on Bard, I have been less than satisfied with Bard due to not having full access to my AoE suite the way I used to. As such I have found that my DPS on large groups of enemies has suffered. This makes me more inclined to play Machinist as it still has its full AoE suite.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I will say that ever since they nerfed Rain of Death on Bard, I have been less than satisfied with Bard due to not having full access to my AoE suite the way I used to. As such I have found that my DPS on large groups of enemies has suffered. This makes me more inclined to play Machinist as it still has its full AoE suite.

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Interesting to read this. I've found to be dishing out massive AoE damage with the change of RoD to be a BL proc as well to the point where I can compete with BLMs (admittingly their flare got nerfed too.)

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Originally Posted by SasakiNori

Interesting to read this. I've found to be dishing out massive AoE damage with the change of RoD to be a BL proc as well to the point where I can compete with BLMs (admittingly their flare got nerfed too.)

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You know, you may be right. I may just have the macros I had originally been using set up wrong. I will have to consider how I have them set up. Thanks for the input...

I had originally had it set up so that Bloodletter was macroed to just about all of my abilities. But now that you mention it, I should have changed it so that instead of having the following set up:

/ac "Misery's End" <t>
/ac "Bloodletter" <t>
/ac "Wide Volley" <t>

I should have the following set-up:

/ac "Misery's End" <t>
/ac "Rain of Death" <t>
/ac "Wide Volley" <t>

I still feel like I am preferring Machinist over Bard, but with the change of Macro's then perhaps I can make the Bard still be viable post 3.0.

I am not fan of bow

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

My only concern is that I can't tell the radius of the turret tp/mp regen, but if it is anything like the radius of the graphic...it is way, way too small to compete with paeon/ballad.

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From what I noticed, it extends quite a distance away from the turret. Not incredibly far, but you can be away from it and still get the refresh/regain. Not to mention, it stacks with paeon and ballad, though I'm not sure if 2 mch buffs stack, though when me and a fc member both used the tp one, we seemed to be stuck at 1k tp, even when spamming the AoE.

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Originally Posted by BlurtedNonsense

Have you taken account for the damage the turret provides? Even with gauss attachment making auto attacks null that turret is still doing constant damage. Plus you can buff it. With that in mind you'll probably break even with a BRD.

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Don't forget that mch doesn't have to lower it's damage by a % to refresh/regain the pt either, whcih is an upside too. Also I've noticed, wildfire can deal some considerable amount of damage if used with lead shot and reassemble + cleaner shot

I'll wait until someone has a bard and machinist at 60 with equivalent gear. Right now you're basing it on people with high-end dungeon gear and people who have just started the machinist and taking whatever scraps they can get until 60.

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Originally Posted by Tharian

I will say that ever since they nerfed Rain of Death on Bard, I have been less than satisfied with Bard due to not having full access to my AoE suite the way I used to. As such I have found that my DPS on large groups of enemies has suffered. This makes me more inclined to play Machinist as it still has its full AoE suite.

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Nerfed ROD? um.... you mean made it OP as hell? can you tell me what they nerfed i really dont understand? make u waste a couple more tp? (invigorate, goad, do u need?) now, can easily do 1500-2k dps on 4-5 mobs in dungeon with WM up and 792 crit and 511 acc, usually spamming RoD every 3-6 seconds between Wide VOlley. Bard AoE used to suck azz. now its only topped by smn and sometimes, though rarely blm. Maybe cuz most bards wear full law set and have only 500 crit and 610 acc its not proccing as much? idk? even with shitty crit its still much more powerful.

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Originally Posted by Bindles

Nerfed ROD? um.... you mean made it OP as hell? can you tell me what they nerfed i really dont understand? make u waste a couple more tp? (invigorate, goad, do u need?) now, can easily do 1500-2k dps on 4-5 mobs in dungeon with WM up and 792 crit and 511 acc, usually spamming RoD every 3-6 seconds between Wide VOlley. Bard AoE used to suck azz. now its only topped by smn and sometimes, though rarely blm. Maybe cuz most bards wear full law set and have only 500 crit and 610 acc its not proccing as much? idk? even with shitty crit its still much more powerful.

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Yes. This. Whatever else they may have done to brd, brd's AoE damage potential is definitely much improved.

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Originally Posted by Darkobra

I'll wait until someone has a bard and machinist at 60 with equivalent gear. Right now you're basing it on people with high-end dungeon gear and people who have just started the machinist and taking whatever scraps they can get until 60.

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I don't see the supposed 'massive damage difference' that sovereignaegis claim. I've got both to 60 (i184); and i dropped bard in favor of MCH. Namely because Gauss Barrel doesn't feel tacked on, the way WM does; Straight shot has a 20% chance to proc and be instant vice having a cast time.... MCH has 50% for clean/slug, has both reload and quick reload to force the proc (so you KNOW your next skill won't have a cast time) ricochet and gauss round are also instants. That's a LOT fewer skills with cast bars. Also...i enjoy trying to beat my personal wildfire bests.

edit: actually, i'm rather curious to see the parses sovereignaegis is basing his assertion of damage disparity on

People people. Most of the posts in this thread were made back in June. Before the buff to WM and GB. Just saying.