Put checkpoints into Trials/Coils longer then 10 minutes

I'm attempting T9 and just having an awful time with it because I'm not involved in a static group. We get to Heavensfall and then die to Elementals or Divebombs, and then have to do the entire thing over again.

I'm all for keeping hard content hard, but now that T9 has an echo and has been nerfed a bit and FcoB has echo as well, can we look into putting checkpoints into some of these fights?

I don't believe it's necessary to add frustration into what will soon be considered "old content". Plus, there's Savage mode for those who want to be hardcore.

I just want to know what happens to Louisoix and Bahamut before Heavensward! =(

afaik all they did to T9 was add echo, no mechanical nerfs.

It's supposed to be a gate until 3.0. After 3.0, it will probably be eased up a bit I'm sure.

No.

At that point, you pretty much CAN'T fail. You can just keep slamming phases until RNG is favorable, then moving on and doing it to the next phase. MP/TP management is thrown out the window. Checkpoints would have to happen AFTER phase transition moves, which in many fights is where the real battle is.



So... no.

I'm not sure it's possible to do this in such a way that doesn't fundamentally alter the fight.

So let's say you have your checkpoints at phase changes (the most logical place for them). On your T9 example, you'd checkpoint after the Heavensfall phase, right?

So let's say you wipe to somebody pooping thunderstruck in the raid. Horrible failure, everybody dies. The fight restarts... but now it's starting at your checkpoint. Stop right here. What does this look like?

Are you restored to full hp/mp? Cooldowns reset? What if party members died to Heavensfall and weren't revived before elements? What happens to them?

The issue with trying to do something like this is that every decision you make in a fight has to take into account what happened before it. So if somebody makes a mistake earlier in the fight, decisions were made based on that that alter how you approach the fight going forward from that point. Without that, what you're really suggesting is to turn one long boss fight into many tiny pieces of a boss fight. I don't think this can work the way I think you're describing it.

What

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Originally Posted by Callinon

logic

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said:

Look OP, I totally understand how frustrating it can be to find people to queue/learn/clear content with if you don't have a dedicated static/lots of time to wait on a queue. ...esp on 'older' content. But 'gates' won't work on content such as Primals and Coil because the very reason groups are failing IS the transitions...that's where the majority of derps happen, and why so many PF groups have 'must know how to clear x mechanic' messages. These gates would basically just make the strategy on many battles= last man standing+wipe, move on to next phase rinse/repeat. There would end up being little to no skill involved, and really no real reason to worry about mechanics...because as long as someone survives=move to next phase. It also would mean enrages could be avoided, and that Tank LB would become OP.

And again, I understand your frustration. Without a dedicated team, some of these battles are nigh on impossible to reliably beat with 7 other random strangers. But then again, these battles were designed for team play...and if you don't have the team/time for the team, sadly for now, this content might not be for you. And I say this as someone who can't reliably access this content atm due to having a newborn at home with a newborn sleep/eat/poop demand schedule on my time. I can't join a static when I have to attend to a baby not yet on a 'set' sleep/awake schedule. And I can't easily PF/DF content because the time spent waiting around on the actual queue/party to form typically eats a good chunk of my 'free' gaming time. But it's okay...one day, the kiddo will be on a set schedule and I can go back (albeit not any time soon) and clear that content. Just because newer, fresher stuff will be around, doesn't mean the old stuff goes away.

So while I understand where OP is frustrated...I think OP is also misunderstanding what/who coil is specifically designed for. (Dedicated Teams or people with the time to deal with the learning curves of PuGs).

It is a pain but i feel checkpoints take away from the point of Coils. If it were a huge raid with loads of bosses and paths i could sort of agree but then how do you set up checkpoints in the context of PuG's where people have varied experience? Even in DF when somebody sets up a "down party" they wipe on meteors because people just join expecting they can hide in the crowd and be carried. When people are not all in the same place what enforces checkpoints? If you drag randoms who have never done it to the middle of the fight do you think it will go any better? The only way to make progress in this case is to drill people in all aspects of the fight.

I share your frustration I've tried several PF groups and got to the final phase then still wiped even though by that point you should be able to brute force your way to the finish line with any party through constant resses there is like one thing that can wipe the party. There are derps that can happen I have my own derp on the second heavensfall I often get the debuff from the add and want to clear the stacks in the white circle but then the heavensfall lands on my face right after it sucks XD.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

It is a pain but i feel checkpoints take away from the point of Coils. If it were a huge raid with loads of bosses and paths i could sort of agree but then how do you set up checkpoints in the context of PuG's where people have varied experience?

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I think people have forgotten that the entire "Turn" system IS the checkpoints. Calling for even more checkpoints is the same as calling for it to be nerfed greatly.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I'm not sure it's possible to do this in such a way that doesn't fundamentally alter the fight.

So let's say you have your checkpoints at phase changes (the most logical place for them). On your T9 example, you'd checkpoint after the Heavensfall phase, right?

So let's say you wipe to somebody pooping thunderstruck in the raid. Horrible failure, everybody dies. The fight restarts... but now it's starting at your checkpoint. Stop right here. What does this look like?

Are you restored to full hp/mp? Cooldowns reset? What if party members died to Heavensfall and weren't revived before elements? What happens to them?

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For T9 I think the ideal spot for a checkpoint would be right after Megaflare. That's where most of the mechanics get thrown out of the window for entirely new ones and it's a "cinematic" spot.

Checkpoints would be very helpful for groups that can't get together for large amounts of time like ours, since fights like this where almost all the phases are mechanically different can start to get irritating when half of your precious time is spent repeating phases you've done a bunch of times already and have nothing to do with what is giving you issues.

That said if all this talk about practice modes is true it would eliminate my problems with stuff like this.

Checkpoints would be good for practicing certain phases, but that's it. Practically they wouldn't work for reasons mentioned above, and if they were to add checkpoints now, it would just invalidate the effort of those who cleared the fights at their hardest even more than they already have.

Most of the coils can be cleared without a static/putting your life and limb on it. We have several people with heavy work/children/family in the FC who still managed to get a clear on all the coils. If you're not willing to put enougj effort into beating the fights, maybe they're just not for you? You can just forget them and continue plating happily, knowing that those fights are perfectly optional.

Practice mode would be good though.

^ Hey Shannon! :D

Coil fights are a lot of wiping while learning, just to get to one new point in the fight to wipe again very shortly. Until the mechanics are grasped. You just need to stick at it and try not to get narkey or discourage other people from getting so just because you have to repeat earlier phases.

While learning t13 my static started getting frustrated and we had a talk and decided after each wipe we would discuss what went wrong, offer constructive criticism if needs be and how we could move forward. Got us the kill a whole lot quicker than if we just kept bombing it back into the fight.

Checkpoints in the fight would just discourage the working together feel and enable it to be coasted through..imo making the kill a lot less satisfying.

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Originally Posted by RachaelMarie22

^ Hey Shannon! :D

Coil fights are a lot of wiping while learning, just to get to one new point in the fight to wipe again very shortly. Until the mechanics are grasped. You just need to stick at it and try not to get narkey or discourage other people from getting so just because you have to repeat earlier phases.

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This is the main problem I find with most groups. They tend to get angry after one or two wipes and don't use their time to practice and discuss what is going wrong. Normally there is yelling and finger pointing then after maybe the 3rd wipe people will just leave because they expect to finish it first time. I think really and I'm sometimes guilty of expecting too much from people in random Primal EX runs in DF that I do to kill time people need to lower their super high expectations that every group knows as much about the instance as they do or that every group should be able to carry them. A static helps greatly in this regard though not everyone has access to one due to lack of knowing people or lack of experience because people need others in the right place or they just don't want the job of being in a static and being forced to play at the times the static chooses.