Peaple keep ignoring the message "one or more players new to duty" aperently

So ran copper hm, haukke hm, phaeros today for first time and all 3 of those the tank just imediately went and pulled a bunch of mobs.

Since its my first time doing these and i'm healing, had a few wipes trying to keep the tank alive during those. Plus once i even lost were everyone ran, so they died :(

During pharoes the fight with a bird and these eggs. Well that one went good untill he started massive aoe damaging peaple and the tank died on me. Afterwords the tank made a comment "I know your new, but you suck"

Ended up finishing those 3 dungeons though at least

I'm getting a very bad vibe from the endgame comunity here, do most peaple just ignore if someones new to end game at this point?

yup they're all in a rush rush rush to get the currency they need for the fancy gear that the expansion will make useless because the questing gear will be better. As usual

Sometimes it's good to tell them you're new, because they can say "New player bla bla" but they dunno who.
It'll also help to ask the tank to do smaller pulls.
Hit or miss on that question because some tanks act like jerkoff's just like the DPS and cry tears when
newer healer can't keep up as they proceed to namecall and demand huge pulls. So tired of that.

Imo, seems like a normal day in Doodie Finder. .-.

communication is key. If you don't SAY you're new, the tank could just assume you're someone's alt or whatever.
SAY something if you want something to happen.

Best thing is to say "hey, I'm new, please let me know if there's something about these battles." Most people will be very willing to help. Of course, there are still jerks out there that don't care, but you probably won't see them again.

Ignore or not I don't think most people care. When they've run it 1000000000000000 times they just see blur.

"I'm sorry did you say something? I can't hear you from back there lol"

As a tank I always run through dungeons quickly but not a full on speed run just so the new player can get an idea of the flow of how people speed run. I also don't care if they watch the cut scenes as it allows me time to grab a drink or use the washroom.

I usually announce that i haven't done something when i'm healing, something along the lines of "i've never done this before, be gentle, i'm fragile."

I always announce when I'm new to a run. The problem is I've had times where people will even kick you if you haven't done a run before, just because they're in such a rush to get done with it and on to the next one. Don't get me wrong, I've made quite a few friends in the community, and that rare time I meet other nice people in the DF is nice, but about 99% of the players in the DF just want to get everything done quickly, and rush everyone involved. Particularly on the story driven content where people want to watch the cutscenes. It seems to me that more often than not it's the tank that's doing it, unless the tank is new, in which case there's always that one DPS or Healer who pulls everything then complains to said tank when the early pulls cause issues......

It's usually easy to see when some one is new, PLd having under 5k-6k HP for a said content, WAR having under 7k, Melee dps under 5k, ranged under 4k, Healers under 4k.


But either way, if you told them that you were new, the tank would of probably adjusted his pulling size. But if you didn't say you were new (the healer, of all people!), then i suppose it could your fault.

Yeah that was a jerk thing to say to you regardless, but...

Even as a "veteran", if I'm coming back after a break for a few weeks, or I'm running a dungeon I haven't run in awhile because I'm insane and masochistic enough to try and upgrade my Relic *inane laughing*, I typically mention that it's been awhile. When I was catching up on the story a few months back, I'd outright point out that I was new in every duty I had to queue up for along the way.

Again, not that the treatment you got was warranted, but it's best to speak up at the beginning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimitrias

So ran copper hm, haukke hm, phaeros today for first time

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dimitrias

I'm getting a very bad vibe from the endgame comunity here

---

End game? Funny stuff.

It's a good idea as people have said already to mention that you're new at the start. I don't always even notice the game's message that people are new. The bright blue of party chat draws my eyes over to it, unlike the grey that the game's message is in.

What the tank said was bad though. And if people are insisting on pulling more than you can handle, that's on them as well.

That is the endgame community for you. Some tanks don't care for the healer if one of the dps is their friends. I was in a party where I was never asked whether or not i could heal appropriately ( back then when i wss still getting my HM dungeons unlocked)

When they were done watching their cut scene or loading screen, I told them to go slow. They didn't hear, and we wiped two times for the tank to say to his/her friend " I won't make a huge mob. I will go slow because the healer is still new to the dungeon."

I wonder when he/she was going to listen to me and talk to me (they were talking or on FC chat/voice chat/LS chat cuz the tank was responding to one of the quiet dps on the party chat)

For me personally, if you don't say you're new, and I can't quickly pick out the new person (I've had the new player message pop up many times when everyone was geared around/over i110, and a few times everyone was almost 120 or more), I'm assuming we have a case of alts needing to finally run a dungeon they've been putting off. Sure, I'm not going to pull everything like I would with a BLM, BRD and WHM I know, but if I see a party that should be able to handle a double pull I'm going to do it. I'm also not explaining fights for you unless you speak up; my experience is that if no one asks, they don't listen, so not wasting my breath until they start speaking up.

If I can clearly pick out the newbie, or they say they're new, they'll get some help. But, they have to speak up to get it.



I'll agree with some others in the thread...dungeons, especially anything in the High Roulette, aren't endgame. Not even close...
And if the people trying to speed pull everything and ignore their party have no Dreadwyrm gear...they're not really endgame players either...

Usually I don't say anything and just observe how others aapproach things.

If I'm not new and some one else is, usually the tank. And it's easy to tell because they try big pulls and die.

I used to try to hold people's hands when I saw the new player message, but about 75% of the time I was told that they already new everything and this was just an alt, or they were in voice chat with one of the other party members who was explaining everything. Sometimes I've even picked out the new player (less than 3k hp) and they've told me that they're an alt so don't bother, only to find out at the end of the dungeon that another player with well over 4k hp was also new but never said anything (with varying consequences).

Generally though, just say that you're new and people will likely give you the cliff's notes to the bosses (but not tell you in which direction the next pull is or anything). Also, for me anyway, a new healer means tiny pulls since it's just suicide otherwise. Other people might be stupider.

EDIT: also consider that if people modify the way that they approach a dungeon too much then the very next time that you run it no 'new player' message will appear and people will run it like normal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rocond

End game? Funny stuff.

---

They arent eg content but most of the time you're with eg players.

The whole thing is that the game ANNOUNCES when someone is new to a duty yet some ignore that. I think that's what op is getting to. There shouldn't be a need to openly say "hey, I'm new" when the game automatically does that. Especially because before you even have time to say that the tank already pulled an army on him. What's up with people assuming that every 1st timer is an alt and not an actual 1st timer?

Also people at endgame tend to not bother because by then they developed a god complex. "What could go wrong? Me and my buddy here are ilvl 91826398162."

I haven't personally seen anyone get kicked for saying they're new at the start of an instance, but regardless, it's best if you state you're new or need advice, because there are plenty of people out there who are willing to help.

As someone who does explain stuff, I only explain stuff relevant to the new person's role. Because explaining -everyone's- roles can take a while, and most people aren't too happy if something is explained for them when they don't need it. I also get a little tired if I have to explain the same stuff all day--lotta typing--so being brief is in my best interest, too.

I mean really, the run's going to be faster and smoother if everyone knows what's going on and the party doesn't wipe. People will generally take a moment to explain if they know advice is needed. And the game's announcement that someone's new isn't enough reason to explain everything for everyone, because as Nutz said, some people are on alts or are getting help from another channel or prepared themself beforehand; and if you're a new healer, you don't need me to explain a tank's or DPS' role, but the game won't tell me who it is that's new.
Whereas if you wipe, or there's chaos, because you happen to be in a crucial role and no one knew you had any idea what to do because you didn't say you needed advice? Nobody likes that.

If you don't ask for help, you don't get help. This is pretty normal both inside and outside of the game. There is no sign on you that says you actually -need- help, and we can't read your mind.

Here's some more thing people ignore:
× ready checks
× people not even close enough to the mobs to be visible on the minimap
× AFKers (yes, sometimes that happens too)

Typical protocol, because of people having alts and many possibly being new to a dungeon but still knowing it, is announcing which one of you is new. A new dps can get by not knowing how a speed run goes, but with a new tank or healer its best to let people know, so no one is expecting too much of you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by synesthetic

If you don't ask for help, you don't get help. This is pretty normal both inside and outside of the game. There is no sign on you that says you actually -need- help, and we can't read your mind.

---

EDIT:This is ultimately what it comes down to. If no one brings it up, folk go about business as usual. Even if new to a specific dungeon you could possibly be used to speed run pulls as other dungeons like WP and AK adapt similar strategies.


However while it would be best for you to state you're new in most circumstances, the tank should have realized you could not handle the pulls he was doing and adjusted accordingly. Too many people are stuck in their own ways and forget how to adapt to certain situations, where simple edits to one's method could change everything (although honestly your tank just seemed like a douche who needed to gogogogogogofast anyway. I feel like stating you're new would have led to a similar situation lol). Ultimately it comes down to communication from all ends as many fights that are older content are done heavily different from when guides were released and some strats in general can cause major alarm to the average player to which when not prepped for can easily lead to panicking and deaths.

EDITEDIT: Also as a healer or a tank don't be afraid of telling folk what you can or cant handle. Those two roles control the pace of the run. If the tank is pulling too much or too little, don't be afraid to ask them to pull less/more. If they say no, it wont be your fault when they die from over pulling since you warned em, and maybe after the 2nd - 3rd wipe on trash mobs they will take a hint lol. Same with tanking, some just aren't comfortable with pulling 4-5 mobs for one reason or another and an additional 5mins tacked onto a run is better than possible wipes causing it to go over 10-15mins more than needed lol.

<joins Steps of Faith, several, including me, type in chat that they're new>
<tank pulls super fast>
<I run around trying to make sure people are at cannon/tower>
<3 leave, we leave, group disbands, get guildies to help, beat it on 2nd try>

gotta love MMO's

Here's the thing. Everything dungeon in this game really plays the same way. There are a few exceptions (for example, if an enemy is going to stun me as the tank, I let the healer know I'm going to be eating a lot of avoidable shit), but generally speaking, every dungeon can be done completely blind in the same way: pull everything to the door, AOE it, kill boss, repeat.

You don't need any experience in that dungeon to be able to do this, so being new isn't a valid excuse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

communication is key. If you don't SAY you're new, the tank could just assume you're someone's alt or whatever.
SAY something if you want something to happen.

---

This. If you don't speak up and just assume they know you're new, well you get what you put in for. People will assume you're an alt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaft

Here's the thing. Everything dungeon in this game really plays the same way. There are a few exceptions (for example, if an enemy is going to stun me as the tank, I let the healer know I'm going to be eating a lot of avoidable shit), but generally speaking, every dungeon can be done completely blind in the same way: pull everything to the door, AOE it, kill boss, repeat.

You don't need any experience in that dungeon to be able to do this, so being new isn't a valid excuse.

---

This. not really defending ppl not taking a look at the rest of the group while still doing the stuff they are used to do with FC members in a more effectiv way, but healers just heal, tanks just tank and dps should do that average damage you are used to seeing via DF. of course if you don't have the overpowered gear you can only do so much before ppl die on you, you lose hate or the fight drags on too long. but when OP said ppl took huge aoe damage from the bird boss, that means someone else fucked up and fed it too many eggs I guess anyway. so he is probably not the only one to blame, but that's the fate of the new guy (and healer)

of course there are fights with special tactics even in your easy dungeon runs, but in general it boils done to "do what you queue'd for while dodging things"

Unfortunately... some people don't take newbies into account.

I was main tank and spamming T5 with friends (light party) and a dragoon was new (via DF). He got us divebombed and at one point walked to me with a twister and got me killed. I didn't say anything because the dragoon seemed to know the mechanics but was just reacting slowly, since he was new I was okay with him experiencing the fight first to get the pace. The sub tank then put the blame on me saying I had dreadwyrm gear but died to twister. It didn't turn out well, abandoned duty but we queued again, got the same sub tank and same dragoon. A friend talked to the dragoon about some of the mechanics and we cleared in one try that time.

Unless someone specifically asks for tips, I'll usually give a very abridged version of the bosses mechanics before just up and pulling. Something like "Violet in, blue out", "Don't attack it unless it's inside the glow", or "One of the AOEs will buff you" or something else vaguely cryptic, allowing the player to have some kind of guidance but will still probably learn by making a mistake first. This gives the new player some help while not offering unwanted advice to those who wish to not hear it and at the same time allowing them to have a feeling they've 'figured it out' on their own, in a way.

If someone claims they are new and would appreciate any advice, I'll go into more detail. It's no help to me for them not knowing the mechanics of a fight. Yes dungeons are usually rush rush rush, I need my tomestones as much as everyone else, but everyones new at some point. Gotta learn somehow. If I'm going to be senpai for the day, so be it. I might even notice you if you listen well!

What I dislike the most is that most people don't care if someone is new, is adequately geared, knows the job they play, are familiar with mechanics and so forth. They just want to finish the Duty and get out as fast as they can.

You can't keep up, then you suck. Yeah, right... That's bull. If you won't give someone a chance to learn, they’ll never improve.

Even if someone says that they're new and you're willing to explain the key parts, most of the time you don't get the chance to explain (because someone pulled already). On top that, a lot of the times people ignore mechanics completely without verifying if the group can actually handle it.

On the other hand, it makes me laugh if i can see a wipe coming from a mile away because they're too overconfident and keep on ignoring mechanics. I once started counting how many people died to Mortal Gaze (doom attack from first boss in the World of Darkness) and the hourglasses . I reached 23 during that run, without causing an actual wipe. They were just standing there, not moving an inch.

I'm not going to scrutinise people's gear when I get into an instance and start asking who's new and who needs their hand holding, if everybody appears to be adequately geared based on their HP and nobody speaks up and says they're undergeared or totally new or trying a new role or whatever, I'm going to assume any "new" players are either alts or people who never bothered doing that particular dungeon.

If new people don't say anything I'm going to assume they've at least read a guide and know what to expect. If you say nothing at the start of a run, you're just as much a part of the problem as the guy who charges off pulling as soon as the instance starts.

Whenever the message pops up, I would ask if anyone needs an explanation for the bosses. If nobody pipes up, I would assume they at least looked up a guide or have done the dungeon before. Though, I did have a few run-ins with players claiming to be alts, but then turns out they were lying about it. I don't mind helping out, but being lied to is infuriating. :p

However, the dungeon trash needs not an explaination since they are more or less the same. If I'm tanking, I'll adjust if the group isn't well-geared, but will pull enough that the party is moving at a decent pace.

It's a tanks job to ensure that their healers and DPS can keep up with the pace they set. If they don't even do that much, they're the ones that suck, not the healers. I think a lot of tanks seem to forget that not every one can do the DPS needed to kill huge crowds of enemies quickly, and not all healers have the heal strength or MP to keep them topped up through it. They just assume everyone is overgeared and pull accordingly.

For me, I'll always assess the situation first. I'll ask before pulling bosses to ensure the mechanics are known and avoid pulling more enemies than my team can keep up with. It doesn't matter if it's my 4th or 100th run that day. After all, if the team wipes you'll only spend even longer in the party than if you just do things at a better pace.

When i'm tanking and i see the new player message i expect the player who is new to tell me this. Otherwise i'm gonna assume that it is an alt and knows what they are doing. I am more than happy to take time and explain the bosses when i'm told someone is not sure what to do. I sometimes ask if anyone needs explanation of the dungeon, but i don't always remember. :P Communicate people, i won't bite :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rayeda

When i'm tanking and i see the new player message i expect the player who is new to tell me this. Otherwise i'm gonna assume that it is an alt and knows what they are doing.

---

What makes you believe that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rayeda

When i'm tanking and i see the new player message i expect the player who is new to tell me this. Otherwise i'm gonna assume that it is an alt and knows what they are doing. I am more than happy to take time and explain the bosses when i'm told someone is not sure what to do. I sometimes ask if anyone needs explanation of the dungeon, but i don't always remember. :P Communicate people, i won't bite :D

---

Yeah, this is an important point. You won't get help unless you ask it. Like the rogue on my last Qarn run who died from the doom debuff but only said he is new when I asked him directly after we wiped.

Personally I never had problems with too big pulls with my scholar (happened a few times with white mage though) even while massively undergeared. Of course I'm still doing leveling content, and scholar is my seventh class, but still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balipu

Like the rogue on my last Qarn run who died from the doom debuff but only said he is new when I asked him directly after we wiped.

---

And that's exactly why you should always ask before a fight that you know may get complicated like that one. Because you're the one who knows, they may not.

Also, another problem of assuming that all silent players are alts: they may be silent just because they play on console.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

And that's exactly why you should always ask before a fight that you know may get complicated like that one. Because you're the one who knows, they may not.

Also, another problem of assuming that all silent players are alts: they may be silent just because they play on console.

---

Now let's get this straight. I only realised he is new when he failed the doom mechanic miserably. New could mean: New on this character, wiped on the last boss, new to the dungeon but knows the tactics. Now if those who don't know what to do go into bossfights without asking for help and we wipe I have two options. Kick them cause finidng a new dps takes a fraction of a second, or ask them directly if they are new and when they admit it, I explain why they died. I tend to do the latter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

It's a tanks job to ensure that their healers and DPS can keep up with the pace they set. If they don't even do that much, they're the ones that suck, not the healers. I think a lot of tanks seem to forget that not every one can do the DPS needed to kill huge crowds of enemies quickly, and not all healers have the heal strength or MP to keep them topped up through it. They just assume everyone is overgeared and pull accordingly.

---

This can't be stated enough.
It's part of the tanks job to set the pace. You may have a rhythm to each zone you're comfortable with, but it needs to be fluid at best in order to accommodate everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balipu

Kick them cause finidng a new dps takes a fraction of a second

---

That's a horrible thing to do. Using your queue advantage to kick a dps just because they don't know the fight beforehand and you can't be bothered to even ask and explain before the fight? That's both lazy and horrible. You said you "tend to do the latter", meaning that you HAVE kicked people for those reasons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sicno

That's a horrible thing to do. Using your queue advantage to kick a dps just because they don't know the fight beforehand and you can't be bothered to even ask and explain before the fight? That's both lazy and horrible. You said you "tend to do the latter", meaning that you HAVE kicked people for those reasons?

---

*Sigh* Nope. The latter means: the second option. The first option would be: the former.

Out of perverse curiosity: So you are saying I am a terrible person if I don't ask before every boss fight: 'Does someone need the tactics explained to them?' but it is totally okay for them to not ask: 'Can someone explain the tactics to me?' Is that right?