ILevel or Skill level?

Do you the players prefer the current ilevel system or would you rather hit max level and start leveling up your weapon/stats as well as abilities and raw stats possibly even adding materia that you could also level up to match X ability for extra effects?
-If you do like this or don't please share why and your ideas or thoughts!

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

Do you the players prefer the current ilevel system or would you rather hit max level and start leveling up your weapon/stats as well as abilities and raw stats possibly even adding materia that you could also level up to match X ability for extra effects?
-If you do like this or don't please share why and your ideas or thoughts!

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That can get pretty expensive.
Have you finished any relics before?

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

That can get pretty expensive.
Have you finished any relics before?

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For every 50 i have Zenith, then they implemented Atma, the grinding of mobs that are lower level than my weapons were and i lost interest. I have all kinds of materia, I was more or less suggesting something more radical but you could take a water 1 and make it a iv through an exp system. Just as an example.

A way to level up gear like in Disgaea?

If i've followed your post correctly, your speaking of implementing a system where it's possible to fine tune your character a bit more. I'm all for this, whether it is directly upgrading weapons and armor (heck , we could used rare drops to put in slots in weapons), or if another alternative is provided.

To me, player skill ability aside, the character build customisation is very bland in this game. Generally, get to 50, put all points in classes main stat, grab the gear you can from raids and dungeons, be the same as everyone else.

More options would be nice. (high level crafters able to make augments for weapons etc would be bad ass. )

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

If i've followed your post correctly, your speaking of implementing a system where it's possible to fine tune your character a bit more. I'm all for this, whether it is directly upgrading weapons and armor (heck , we could used rare drops to put in slots in weapons), or if another alternative is provided.

To me, player skill ability aside, the character build customisation is very bland in this game. Generally, get to 50, put all points in classes main stat, grab the gear you can from raids and dungeons, be the same as everyone else.

More options would be nice. (high level crafters able to make augments for weapons etc would be bad ass. )

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Yep, similar to FF II, and XI and XIV 1.0 skills leveled up. but with a side of VII and the materia system. Skill-ups can be anything from weapon skill to an ability to even your raw stats like parry. Materia would then add effects to the player as an added skill effect/stat bonus or directly to the item it was slotted to for various effects. #elementalwheel

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

Yep, similar to FF II, and XI the way skills leveled up. but with a side of VII and the materia system. Skill-ups can be anything from weapon skill to an ability to even your raw stats like parry. Materia would then add effects to the player as an added skill effect/stat bonus or directly to the item it was slotted to for various effects. #elementalwheel

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Oh god no. The many hours of earning tiny skill point increments in XI. Make it stop! *Fetal position*

I'd rather have it be player skill then ilvl. There are many players that have high ilvl and are just terrible... :(

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Originally Posted by Reokudo

Oh god no. The many hours of earning tiny skill point increments in XI. Make it stop! *Fetal position*

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So you're against bonus stats? interesting.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

So you're against bonus stats? interesting.

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Well, thing is this idea sounds like it would be tied to a terribly-long grind.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

So you're against bonus stats? interesting.

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I'm against the leveling of these stats. Having stuff like <insert weapon skill type a la Polearm, sword etc here> was a nightmare in XI. It leveled far too slowly. You'd spend hours for just a few points if not just 1. What I'd like is having materia with new stats on it that enhance certain abilities. Like some people have been wanting gear that has unique stats that buff abilities. Ex: Enhances Rampart. Or hell, make it like an enhancement scroll where you're able to slap that onto any gear.

I seem to be good at confusing the masses with simple concepts for any person who has played through the FF series.
@Reokudo Still stuck on the FFXI grind? You act like i'm suggesting you start out with no stats or bonuses and have to earn them through grinding. Very far from what i was suggesting, but ty for your opinion and adding a suggestion/idea of your own.

I'd like to see some character customization, but through horizontal gear progression, where you have various options to push your character into a particular direction while not being strictly better or worse than other people at the same level

The problem I'd imagine would arise from your proposed idea, is it would either be an extremely long grind for just a small increase in stats, and if it wasn't, everyone would just level up everything... and be exactly the same as each other again, no different from what we have now

Lets be honest here, there are no "bonus" stats when it comes to the player base expectations n mmos. You can complicate it as much as you want but it's going to come down to, people who want best only, and people who dont care and just look for acceptable. Basically skilling up you are just asking to add the idea behind the current relic system to smaller increments to everything, with a few extra things to worry about thrown in. Given the game is intended to be casual geared in its core concept I vote no.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

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All your idea does is screw people who don't have huge amounts of time to play.
Right now, a skilled player with minimal time can still get the best gear and be on a level play field with those who spend 10+ hours per day on the game.

With your idea, people with limited time would *never* be able to catch up to those with more time to play. Especially if you're raising stats in your grind.

If anything, everything needs Materia Slots and the Materia system should be changed to apply or modify effects on skills.
For example, a Monk might want to get a Materia called 'Instant Demolish', which causes the Monk skill Demolish to apply its whole DoT effect instantly, but has a 28 second cooldown.
While another Materia could change Twin Snakes to grant a longer duration buff with lower bonus damage, allowing you to dump more True Strikes.
Damage done over time is unchanged, but its a different more personalized play style.

You would only have limited Materia Slots, perhaps only on Head/Chest/Legs/Hands/Feet/Weapon, so you wouldn't be able to just use every Materia for every skill.
Maybe even have it so only 1 Materia could affect any given skill at a time.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

Lets be honest here, there are no "bonus" stats when it comes to the player base expectations n mmos. You can complicate it as much as you want but it's going to come down to, people who want best only, and people who dont care and just look for acceptable

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this , same happened to FFXI with merits , they arent optional if u are interested in Endgame , is another grind that u have to do once u are at max lvl.

WoW , gemming your gear , enchanting it werent "optional" either if u wanted to do any serius content.

dont forget Eq AA's.....huge grind


we need something like that? yes , but not atached to any grindfest.

Yoshi talked about adding talents in 4.0 , but im sure they will create a new and complicated system just because this is FF

I can see the argument for people with more time being able to get farther along than someone without. However in a mere 45 seconds of giving it thought I think we could cap the daily limit and give exp or .x increase to people who stay logged out, similar to rest exp. This way people with less time on their hand would be able to skill up a stat or ability or materia at the same rate as the person with more time.
Nothing is forbidden, every idea is permitted here.
For added effect and to add to what Warlyx said these bonus points for abilities could go into a set of trees for Talents to diversify yo self.
To add to what Syvle said. I'm thinking Sphere Grid with Materia slots in it perhaps hidden, like Mutegen's in Witcher 2.
They would coincide with gear slots or perhaps the gear slots unlock the hidden materia slot in the grid which can only be seen with and must coincide somehow with the leveling materia. Or it could only become available when you have that maxed materia slotted to your armor. I'm just riffing here.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

this , same happened to FFXI with merits , they arent optional if u are interested in Endgame , is another grind that u have to do once u are at max lvl.

WoW , gemming your gear , enchanting it werent "optional" either if u wanted to do any serius content.

dont forget Eq AA's.....huge grind


we need something like that? yes , but not atached to any grindfest.

Yoshi talked about adding talents in 4.0 , but im sure they will create a new and complicated system just because this is FF

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I remember seeing a ranger with over 45k aa spent, talk about a grind.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

Lets be honest here, there are no "bonus" stats when it comes to the player base expectations n mmos. You can complicate it as much as you want but it's going to come down to, people who want best only, and people who dont care and just look for acceptable. Basically skilling up you are just asking to add the idea behind the current relic system to smaller increments to everything, with a few extra things to worry about thrown in. Given the game is intended to be casual geared in its core concept I vote no.

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Really now. I've known plenty of people that were serious at the game (as in, they invested a lot of time in it) but made their own choices on what build to get, instead of going for ''the best''.


Sure, there's many who only go for ''the best'', but please dont generalize.


For example in RO I played a hybrid hunter, which was not ''the best'' (best was full dex/agi with about 20?-30 points in vit), but it worked and was interesting.
It was possible to do that precisely because of the stats diversity.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

All your idea does is screw people who don't have huge amounts of time to play.
Right now, a skilled player with minimal time can still get the best gear and be on a level play field with those who spend 10+ hours per day on the game.

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MMOs are about time investment first, before level of skill.
If you don't have huge amounts of time to play, I can guarantee there are plenty of games you can play that are worth more /time spend playing. Which makes sense, similar amount of development time/funding for those games, but a smaller game.

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Originally Posted by Reokudo

Oh god no. The many hours of earning tiny skill point increments in XI. Make it stop! *Fetal position*

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Yeah.. As much as I like various systems similar to this, as long as nothing's done to stop people from botting in this game, I'm against it.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

MMOs are about time investment first, before level of skill.
If you don't have huge amounts of time to play, I can guarantee there are plenty of games you can play that are worth more /time spend playing. Which makes sense, similar amount of development time/funding for those games, but a smaller game.

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15 years ago maybe.
I enjoy MMOs.
I do not have 10 hours every day to devote to gaining tiny stat increments so that i can play the challenging content.

Skill comes before time invested.
If time was all that was required to be good at the game, everyone would be clearing FCoB.

If XIV told me i needed to spend a week getting my Job to cap then spend 3 months grinding my stats up so i could do anything with that Job, I'd quit.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

15 years ago maybe.
I enjoy MMOs.
I do not have 10 hours every day to devote to gaining tiny stat increments so that i can play the challenging content.

Skill comes before time invested.
If time was all that was required to be good at the game, everyone would be clearing FCoB.

If XIV told me i needed to spend a week getting my Job to cap then spend 3 months grinding my stats up so i could do anything with that Job, I'd quit.

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15 years ago and today.

If you want the best quality for your time spend, then mmos are not a good choice.
If for you skill comes before time invested, then it seems to me mmos arent really your thing.

Ignoring the mmo tag as meaning ''requires time investment, but gives you something you can do over a longer time because of it'' is certainly something we didnt have 15 years ago however.
Its very prevailent these days however, it seems.


If I have an hour to spend on a game, and I want to enjoy that hour from start to finish, then I play a singleplayer game where I can just hop in, without having to grind first, or wait for queues.

If on the other hand I'm looking for something I can play for a much longer time over the course of a month or a year, then a mmo is a much better choice.


Singleplayer games dont typically require (much, or any) grinding. Whereas grinding or things such as queues are a part of the mmo genre. You need to be able to have enough to do to potentially play it for months, after all.

It is that simple.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

So you're against bonus stats? interesting.

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Only problem would be if the ceiling was set too high..
i.e. if to reach max stats, it took months and months of grinding, then crafters would rule over you with their throw money at it approach!
If it was set too low or just right, then it would be a pointless grind just for the sake of grinding.. Especially if all builds will end up looking the same cookie cutter builds.
IF, and a big IF, in an MMO there were multiple viable builds, then yes I'd be all for such a system, I don't think SE's up to the challenge of balancing all that though.

Oh and btw, if you want an example of MMO based on skill lvl building up.. Check out Darkfall Online.

I LOVED the concept of the game, I really did, it doesn't fit with FF14 environment, but the cut throat combat and lawlessness was awesome.. it creates a serious gap between no lifers and casuals though.. I had a go at it for a few weeks then I just couldn't keep up (started school around that time) but it WAS a good game.. not a good model for keeping around a hefty amount of casual players though, and that leads to financial failure

At first I thought you meant actual skill level, not paper skill level. If 'ilvl' only increases based on a player's actual combat achievements (beat this gain x slvl, beat that gain x slvl, etc) I'd imagine alot of players wouldn't actually be anywhere near 'slvl' 100 out of 130.

The whining would be an amazing sight to behold.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

So you're against bonus stats? interesting.

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In an MMO there are no such things as "bonus stats". Those bonuses become mandatory and failure to acquire them becomes unacceptable.

I and many others had to go through that in XI, in the end it wasn't to fun knowing skill gains would be really slow (or expensive if you're only buying tomes). Given what I remember reading about 1.0 It sounded like the job/class thing they wanted would have been better on a tree based on skill level in conjunction with class level. Again, not to fun since it would have been to much like XI before several long overdue adjustments.

Otherwise I think the PVP/ Frontline ability skill sets are the only thing in game even close to how I'm interpreting the question.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Singleplayer games dont typically require (much, or any) grinding. .

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I take it you've never played the old Dragon Warrior titles before they were re-released as Dragon Quest. Or got those other summons, rat tails for that armor, and those dragon drops on the moon in FFII (us). Let alone getting your party level high enough to make the last dungeon journey not require as much running away and potions, tents etc.. in Final Fantasy for the NES. (Although the last boss can be killed in the first turn)

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

For every 50 i have Zenith, then they implemented Atma, the grinding of mobs that are lower level than my weapons were and i lost interest. I have all kinds of materia, I was more or less suggesting something more radical but you could take a water 1 and make it a iv through an exp system. Just as an example.

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This just makes me...confused. You want a long grind to boost an item/skill's level...but refuse to go do a relic quest. Which isn't even really a terrible grind.

I get the feeling you just don't know what you want, or maybe don't know what exactly you're talking about

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Originally Posted by Gardes

At first I thought you meant actual skill level, not paper skill level. If 'ilvl' only increases based on a player's actual combat achievements (beat this gain x slvl, beat that gain x slvl, etc) I'd imagine alot of players wouldn't actually be anywhere near 'slvl' 100 out of 130.

The whining would be an amazing sight to behold.

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Datacrons in SWTOR come to mind. The bonuses were enough that they were mandatory instead of fun.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

I take it you've never played the old Dragon Warrior titles before they were re-released as Dragon Quest. Or got those other summons, rat tails for that armor, and those dragon drops on the moon in FFII (us). Let alone getting your party level high enough to make the last dungeon journey not require as much running away and potions, tents etc.. in Final Fantasy for the NES. (Although the last boss can be killed in the first turn)

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None of those old titles required more than ~200 hours of gameplay to grind it out..
I've averaged about 120 hours on the typical FF/DQ titles and felt it was enough..
Disgaea, La Pucelle, Phantom Brave, these NIS titles, now these are a completely different beast.. I think the most I've put in was about 300 hours into Disgaea 2..

Now, I ask you.. How many hours do you think I have logged on WoW? FF14? Guild Wars 2? Wildstar? Take a guess, they're at least a digit higher :) In case of WoW, could even be 2 digits more..

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

I think the most I've put in was about 300 hours into Disgaea 2....

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Now Disgaea is a series I've heard lots about, but unfortunately I've never been able to get my hands on any of them when I still had a PS2 to experience the gameplay. Or the Secret/Legend of Mana sets. The later might be more for unlocking via map placement and the forge. I'd also suggest Ever Quest back in its hay-day but I knew nothing about online at the time let alone cared much for it after hearing those rumors. Mostly like it was the RPG version of crack for DnD folks. Then again EQ wasn't single player like Elder Scrolls 3.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

In an MMO there are no such things as "bonus stats". Those bonuses become mandatory and failure to acquire them becomes unacceptable.

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Exactly. Once you begin to play with other people, it becomes a competition. Not having "bonus stats" makes you undesirable and you will be ignored or replaced.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

I and many others had to go through that in XI, in the end it wasn't to fun knowing skill gains would be really slow (or expensive if you're only buying tomes). Given what I remember reading about 1.0 It sounded like the job/class thing they wanted would have been better on a tree based on skill level in conjunction with class level. Again, not to fun since it would have been to much like XI before several long overdue adjustments.

Otherwise I think the PVP/ Frontline ability skill sets are the only thing in game even close to how I'm interpreting the question.



I take it you've never played the old Dragon Warrior titles before they were re-released as Dragon Quest. Or got those other summons, rat tails for that armor, and those dragon drops on the moon in FFII (us). Let alone getting your party level high enough to make the last dungeon journey not require as much running away and potions, tents etc.. in Final Fantasy for the NES. (Although the last boss can be killed in the first turn)

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Thats quite a ways off-topic you went. And yes, I can only remember a single ff moment where grinding was needed, and that was to beat the first Seymoure in FFX, simple because of the way the sphere grid worked+ characters typically being unavailable so you could focus their leveling.

I dont know what you experienced in FFXI, but just because you have one experience doesnt mean youve seen them all. I gave you one example where the stats diversity made it possible to have (a fair amount of good) builds. One build being best didnt make it mandatory there.

Since you gave a FF example, perhaps you should give an example where in the history you FF you had to take an exat group of party members (when you had more party members available), as that would be a better comparison. Items collection for 100% completion dont count when talking about this kind of (mandatory) grind.
It's level/powergrind thats on topic.


I take it you never played many(many) of the games (singleplayer or mmo) where having a higher variety of stats made the game more interesting?

Appreciate all the posts. People seem to be getting their minds suck on the most obtuse things. It's a shame that people just QQ NO for X reason because they didn't like the way it was implemented in another FF and then run away. Instead of offering anything of value. Think i'll change to the title to Ilevel or Character Customization.
Edit: to all the people crying about XI. The skill exp feature was implemented in II (the actual jp 2, not IV). and was a feature of this game xiv at it's original release. So wake up please you trogs who claim this isn't XI. It was literally inspired by XI, literally.
To those saying Grind omg the grind omg the no lifes will get all da points stfu and go play something offline. I already platted Bloodborne maybe you can go do that to instead of whining about nothing and turning every thread into an anti FF XI hate speech.
#coffeebreak

I miss the old skill levels in XI and the merit point system.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

To those saying Grind omg the grind omg the no lifes will get all da points stfu and go play something offline

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lol really?

That's what you do in a forum, we exchange ideas.. Your idea, while has potential to make things interesting, I just don't think SE's up to the task.. They're not exactly known for trying to complicate things and balance them out.. Which is what stat/skill customization would require.

It's actually easier to do that on single player games because it's purely pve. If it's horribly unbalanced and one class ends up being complete crap, people just won't use it. In an MMO, that's hard to enforce, if one class/build ends up being complete crap.. Well, SE has to deal with the consequences and balance it out, and again, and again..

In the end, it'll result in cookie cutter builds for everybody so there will be a tank WAR build, dps WAR build, it won't be any different from what we can currently do with itemization.

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Originally Posted by Amatsuhira

Appreciate all the posts. People seem to be getting their minds suck on the most obtuse things. It's a shame that people just QQ NO for X reason because they didn't like the way it was implemented in another FF and then run away. Instead of offering anything of value. Think i'll change to the title to Ilevel or Character Customization.
Edit: to all the people crying about XI. The skill exp feature was implemented in II (the actual jp 2, not IV). and was a feature of this game xiv at it's original release. So wake up please you trogs who claim this isn't XI. It was literally inspired by XI, literally.
To those saying Grind omg the grind omg the no lifes will get all da points stfu and go play something offline. I already platted Bloodborne maybe you can go do that to instead of whining about nothing and turning every thread into an anti FF XI hate speech.
#coffeebreak

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