Wait a minute...is this a plot-hole (Austerities of Wind and Main Scenario-related)?

I've been re-watching a few scenes regarding Primals recently and found out something that didn't add up.

Given that, right after we fought and defeated Garuda, she (along Ifrit and Titan) got absorbed by the Ultima Weapon, how is it possible that we could perform the Austerities of Wind at all?

I thought that once a Primal was absorbed by it, it couldn't be summoned again (so it acted as both, a prison for their essences and additional power sources for the Weapon itself).

So...even though, she was trapped at the time (considering that job quests may or may not have happened during the same time-frame as the main scenario), could there still be some of Garuda's essence for us to confront and obtain her Egi?

What we confront is the essence of Garuda we got from her defeat, even though she was trapped in Ultima we got the crystal of wind directly from her body so that should do the trick.

While I can't think of all of the details the short answer is, yes some of her essence remains for you to do the trial. Basically as a summoner that is what you are doing harnessing a small part of the primals essence to use. And while I am not sure how far into the story you are, like fighting Mog or Shiva, you learn that the Primals aren't what we initially thought they were. While I cannot go into too much detail, as the lore is still debatable but for the most part accepted. The primals aren't actually entities that are actually summoned but ideas and beliefs brought to life by aether. So while Garuda was "absorbed" she still exist and could be summoned again. But the best reason for why she wasnt, immediately, summoned again is probably because watching their "god" be defeated before their eyes, broken the ixal's spirit. They could summon her again, but they briefly lost the desire to. Sorta like when you lose the will to fight during a game or the will to study for a test, similar principle, you still can but the will to do it is gone for a bit. I hope that helps a little, if it doesn't confuse you more, lol.

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Originally Posted by lololink

What we confront is the essence of Garuda we got from her defeat, even though she was trapped in Ultima we got the crystal of wind directly from her body so that should do the trick.

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Really?
I thought the austerities worked without the need of an aspected crystal (in fact, I don't think the Summoner quests ever mentioned it); instead, simply needing the defeat of a given Primal, and call upon their essence from an area where their aspect is strong.

Unless I'm missing something else (because, in Garuda's case, if her whole essence was inside Ultima Weapon, the we shouldn't have been able to call its Egi...would we?)...

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Originally Posted by Eloah

While I can't think of all of the details the short answer is, yes some of her essence remains for you to do the trial.
Basically as a summoner that is what you are doing harnessing a small part of the primals essence to use.
And while I am not sure how far into the story you are, like fighting Mog or Shiva, you learn that the Primals aren't what we initially thought they were.
While I cannot go into too much detail, as the lore is still debatable but for the most part accepted.
The primals aren't actually entities that are actually summoned but ideas and beliefs brought to life by aether.
So while Garuda was "absorbed" she still exist and could be summoned again.
But the best reason for why she wasnt, immediately, summoned again is probably because watching their "god" be defeated before their eyes, broken the ixal's spirit.
They could summon her again, but they briefly lost the desire to.
Sorta like when you lose the will to fight during a game or the will to study for a test, similar principle, you still can but the will to do it is gone for a bit.
I hope that helps a little, if it doesn't confuse you more, lol.

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That could be it.
I know that the lore behind them wasn't fully revealed/expanded upon (beyond "entities made manifest through prayer and aether"), but if we do have some of the Primals' essence still available out there (and/or within us), that may explain how we were able to call forth an Egi from Garuda, despite her being trapped at the time.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Really?
I thought the austerities worked without the need of an aspected crystal (in fact, I don't think the Summoner quests ever mentioned it); instead, simply needing the defeat of a given Primal, and call upon their essence from an area where their aspect is strong.

Unless I'm missing something else (because, in Garuda's case, if her whole essence was inside Ultima Weapon, the we shouldn't have been able to call its Egi...would we?)...

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It's not her soul that we need, it's aether that was used to create her body, when you defeat a primal the aether they were made of scatter around and return to the earth, but a part is also absorbed by all the living being in the area, in the case of Garuda although she didn't vanish we got her wind crystal which was made from her aether, so that would have been enough.


It's also possible that when we beat her she was already disappearing and we got some aether from her while she was trying to regenerate by absorbing Titan and Ifrit.

Don't forget the biggest hint the game gives you: you can only summon a primal you were there to defeat.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If I remember accurately, and infer corrrectly:

Defeating a primal causes its aetherial form to shatter; it rapidly dissolves back into mist and returns to the Land (or, more vaguely, to the natural order). One who has defeated a primal has themselves necessarily been bathed in this aetherial dispersion, and is forever host to a trace of its essence. Egi, therefore, appear to be summoned, at least in part, from within.

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The best theory I've got at the moment is that the trace of Garuda's essence left on the summoner is harnessed to "program" the gathered aether (as math would do for carbuncle). Ultima may have had Garuda, but it didn't have the traces of her essence left on us from her defeat.

one thing that can be mentioned is the game's timeline is loose, meaning events can take place outside of normal time within the world, to quote tim burton "everything has a beginning, middle and an end, but not in that order" it is one explanations to large plot holes such as the lvl 50 cullenarian quest with nanamo. and even explain how as the warrior of light we can take off and do our own thing when were meant to be in one specific area, or do things in a incredibly short amount of time ((using the quest before the final quest of 2.55 we were only doing a small errand for the lalafell in the quicksands and they even mention we were not there for the very begining of the ceremony when we told as we got there it was just starting.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Don't forget the biggest hint the game gives you: you can only summon a primal you were there to defeat.

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Exception being Bahamut come Heavensward, apparently.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Exception being Bahamut come Heavensward, apparently.

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Let's not count our chocobos before they've hatched! There's ways they can reconcile it come Heavensward, so calling an exception so soon is hasty at best. (The easiest being the SMN storyline might have you fight a weaker version of Bahamut or some such nonsense [I hope not]; the more complicated being some Allag-related explanation regarding their ability to summon Egis and their enslavement of dragons)

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Exception being Bahamut come Heavensward, apparently.

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By the time period of Heavensward, the Warrior of Light has already cleared the Final Coil of Bahamut; it's part of the story, even if not a mandatory one for each and every player.

Don't be surprised if the game acts as through you've defeated the Coil storyline regardless of whether or not you actually did; World of Warcraft does the same because it's easier and more sensible not to make the effects of raids only available to the raiders able to complete it and it's very rare that completing a raid will make a difference in how people treat your character.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Exception being Bahamut come Heavensward, apparently.

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There's meant to be a fair bit of story pertaining to Bahamut in Heavensward so it's entirely possible players that haven't cleared Final Coil will be exposed to his aether in some other way.

Let's not forget that Summoner was invented by the Allag - people who practically worshiped their own dominance of Bahamut. Draconic likenesses are hidden all over their gear (not so hidden on the dreadwyrm but I can't even figure out if we're supposed to think that they wore that or if it was "aetherially created" a la Louisoix and Nael's new frames). Look at the summoner horn - even it is suspiciously similar to Bahamut. One big central horn, two smaller horns to the sides of it, triangular pieces over the ears. With Bahamut's essence returned to the aether (and he's the size of a city - that's a lot of formerly-of-Bahamut aether), one need not necessarily have cleared Coil to be able to channel his power; something could just as easily come up in the job quests (though, as others have said, we now know that the storyline is canon by patch - you in the story finished the Coil in 2.4, even if you the human didn't clear it yet.

Maybe they'll force the players into going into Coil story mode, they talked about including it so that everyone can experiment the story in the coil, so maybe that will do the trick.

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Originally Posted by RomildaRayne

By the time period of Heavensward, the Warrior of Light has already cleared the Final Coil of Bahamut; it's part of the story, even if not a mandatory one for each and every player.

Don't be surprised if the game acts as through you've defeated the Coil storyline regardless of whether or not you actually did; World of Warcraft does the same because it's easier and more sensible not to make the effects of raids only available to the raiders able to complete it and it's very rare that completing a raid will make a difference in how people treat your character.

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Since there were i think 3 or 4 others in the "Hydaelyn's Crystal" CS at level 15 I'm assuming that there's the usual 4-5 WoLs that usually appear in final fantasy. So it wouldn't be out of the question that One of the Warriors was Canonically responsible for stopping Bahamut, While another was felling the EX primals, while a Third Was exploring Crystal Tower, all while Deprplander was clearing the Main Story's events. Thus giving use a little more flexibility with the plot.

Actually, the 2.0 Summoner quests are some of the few quests that explicitly require Main Story progress to continue. If you try to accept the Austerities of Wind quest before you've cleared Garuda (normal mode), the game will not let you. Same with Titan (and presumably Ifrit, even though that part of the story should be long done by the time you hit lv 30 SMN).

As for the Ultima Weapon thing, even though Ultima Weapon absorbed the power/aether of Garuda, Alphinaud explicitly states that the Weapon is a deterrent. There's nothing stopping the beastmen from summoning their primals again post-Ultima Weapon except fear that they'd just be eaten immediately. This actually proves that the exact same "quantum of aether" in the aetherstream is not summoned every single time a particular primal is summoned. However, it does not discount the possibility that all of "Garuda's aether" comes from a larger source in the stream and summoning her into the physical plane just draws a small quantity of it.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

. This actually proves that the exact same "quantum of aether" in the aetherstream is not summoned every single time a particular primal is summoned. However, it does not discount the possibility that all of "Garuda's aether" comes from a larger source in the stream and summoning her into the physical plane just draws a small quantity of it.

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Could that be similar to how Atomos Prime in WoD collapsed/died by being forced to summon multiple howling atomoses at a fast rate? Seemed like when it was channeling it's either to the clones that killing the clones was slowly killing it until it used up more than it had. (Which I think the THM and CNJ quests says will kill you)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Let's not forget that Summoner was invented by the Allag - people who practically worshiped their own dominance of Bahamut. Draconic likenesses are hidden all over their gear (not so hidden on the dreadwyrm but I can't even figure out if we're supposed to think that they wore that or if it was "aetherially created" a la Louisoix and Nael's new frames). Look at the summoner horn - even it is suspiciously similar to Bahamut. One big central horn, two smaller horns to the sides of it, triangular pieces over the ears. With Bahamut's essence returned to the aether (and he's the size of a city - that's a lot of formerly-of-Bahamut aether), one need not necessarily have cleared Coil to be able to channel his power; something could just as easily come up in the job quests (though, as others have said, we now know that the storyline is canon by patch - you in the story finished the Coil in 2.4, even if you the human didn't clear it yet.

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Let's not forget how ARR even came about, the land has been warped by being showered by all the residual aether as a result of the battle between Luisioux and Bahamut. There is no short supply of Bahamut essence in Eorzea without looking into coil. The devs also mentioned we will be exploring a little bit more of Bahamut's story in 3.0, and SMN getting access to his powers just might be the way they choose to dig a bit deeper into that story.

What if the Summoner Crystal (job Crystal) which contains the memory and powers of its previous user. What if one of its previous users were the one of the Summoners to defeat and imprison Bahamut? D:

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Could that be similar to how Atomos Prime in WoD collapsed/died by being forced to summon multiple howling atomoses at a fast rate? Seemed like when it was channeling it's either to the clones that killing the clones was slowly killing it until it used up more than it had. (Which I think the THM and CNJ quests says will kill you)

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That was indeed how I interpreted that fight. Atomos Prime was within a giant crystal as well, much as Bahamut Prime was, with the implication being that the Prime was keeping the manifestation(s) alive. By forcing Atomos Prime to channel more aether to the manifestations it eventually destroyed itself. Similarly destroying Bahamut Prime caused his manifestation to return to aether.

I know there are many that like to cite Koji's classification of atomos as voidsent but the fact that we have two crystals containing primes of a creature born of aether suggests the truth of atomos' nature may be more complex. If, for example, he were a primal from the void (which I believe he is) would it not still be correct to classify him as voidsent and primal? Koji's prior classification does not preclude all others.

Maybe it is just a voidsent that works the same way primals work, they eat aethers, then turn into crystal and summon monsters to defend themselves with that aether.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Maybe it is just a voidsent that works the same way primals work, they eat aethers, then turn into crystal and summon monsters to defend themselves with that aether.

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Well voidsent as a creature type eat aether by definition, that's one of the primary means by which people like to try and shoot down my theory. Atomos is the only voidsent we've seen behave in this manner though; I don't believe we've seen any other voidsent consume aether just to strengthen and heal themselves. We have seen Garuda and Bahamut do it, but I'm sure someone will find another reason for why that doesn't suggest a link.

To be honest the fact that we have a Bahamut Prime and an Atomos Prime should have raised questions. It's not like the lore team to throw us bones like that and not have them mean something. Most people honestly just seem to try and shut the theory down entirely because of Koji's voidsent statement, even though Koji is well known for being cryptic and giving half truths in an effort to avoid spoilers.

If Atomos isn't a primal then I would like to know why he and Bahamut both have a Prime and what 'Prime' even means in the context of FFXIV's universe. Do other primals have Primes? Can other voidsent have Primes?

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Originally Posted by lololink

Maybe it is just a voidsent that works the same way primals work, they eat aethers, then turn into crystal and summon monsters to defend themselves with that aether.

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I would be more inclined to think this is correct than supposing that the Atomos, a voidsent, gathered followers and became a primal. Just because it has similarities to primals doesn't make it one if it doesn't meet the criteria of worship and aether for summoning. Like you said, it's more likely that Atomos Prime is a type of Atomos that has similarities to a primal, but is still ultimately a voidsent, as Koji said.

I also like to point out that we still don't have a concrete definition of "Primal" in relation to a sentient being inside that physical manifestation.

We assume primals need followers to summon them because thats how we've seen it done. We can conclude that it doesn't need to be a deiety to summon it though. We also know the normal rules don't apply in the void.

So who's to say that the rules ofa primal's existence aren't different there as well. Perhaps the howling atmoses them selves were the "primals" and the prime crystal summoned then via its own aeither as a last resort

I submit that a primal is simply any aeitheric construct summoned via a crystal conduit to channel and focus the large amounts of external aethier needed to summon them.

We know after all that summing more than an Egi via the allagan method WILL kill us.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

We know after all that summing more than an Egi via the allagan method WILL kill us.

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Wait, can you tell tell me where we learn this? I thought we summoned an Egi simply because it's controllable, just the pure essence of the primal so that it takes a manifestation of it, albeit smaller, and doesn't have the personality most primals have?

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Wait, can you tell tell me where we learn this? I thought we summoned an Egi simply because it's controllable, just the pure essence of the primal so that it takes a manifestation of it, albeit smaller, and doesn't have the personality most primals have?

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The Conjuror Questline states if you use more aether than you have it will kill you.

Thaumaturge quest line implies the same is true in Thaumaturgy because it draws directly from one's own aether.

Summoning via the Allag Method is using a defeated primal's lingering essence and our own aether to make the aetheric construct know as an egi which is only a fraction of the true primals power.

The fact that it takes a dozen to several hundred worshipers to summon a prim depending on it's strength via the ascian method which is funneling the worship (read aethier) of the subjects into a large crystal.

So considering how much it takes to summon just the normal primals it would easily drain us to death several times over. So the Allag method uses a line person's aethir for an egi but the ascian method dodges that risk by using a crystal to channel energy from multiple followers for the summoning.

Now let's say some other adventurers tossed you some aethier (aka limit break) and you could possibly summon the full primal for just long enough to fire its supper attack a dissipate.

The Summoner quest line explicitly states that the Egi are a manageable size. A larger Egi may still be manageable, but could become unruly. It wouldn't kill us. The mana it takes to perform an Egi Summoning is but a portion of our overall mana, or aether reserves. Yes, overusing our aether reserves would kill us, but more than an Egi killing us? Unlikely. Now a full Primal Summoning is impossible for a Summoner, mainly because while an individual can have enough worship (lookin' at you, Greg), an individual requires crystals because one's own aetheric reserves are not great enough to perform the Summoning alone. Could a level 100 Summoner do it with ilvl100billion and tonze upon tonze of piety materia melded in? Maybe? But to claim that for a single Summoner to summon something greater than an Egi would cause death, I think is too far.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

The Summoner quest line explicitly states that the Egi are a manageable size. A larger Egi may still be manageable, but could become unruly. It wouldn't kill us. The mana it takes to perform an Egi Summoning is but a portion of our overall mana, or aether reserves. Yes, overusing our aether reserves would kill us, but more than an Egi killing us? Unlikely. Now a full Primal Summoning is impossible for a Summoner, mainly because while an individual can have enough worship (lookin' at you, Greg), an individual requires crystals because one's own aetheric reserves are not great enough to perform the Summoning alone. Could a level 100 Summoner do it with ilvl100billion and tonze upon tonze of piety materia melded in? Maybe? But to claim that for a single Summoner to summon something greater than an Egi would cause death, I think is too far.

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I would go as far as to say a Summoner with a large manna reserve could summon multiple Egis at once or one with a strong enough will could summon a Great Egi (Like an Elder Primal's Egi) but summoning past the Egi phase IS attempting to summon the full primal. And no single being can summon a primal with out a large crystal conduite. The Allagain Method doesn't use Crystal Conduits because Egis can be summoned with one's own Aether. Now if we used the Ascian method and a Crystal Conduite of large enough proportions then we could likely summon a full primal single handedly. The flaw in that being that a full primal has it's own will and probably wouldn't appreciate being given orders.

But that is the ultimate difference in the Allagain and Ascian methods, being the Absence and Presence of Crystals to use as summoning conduits. With out the Crystals we would most certainly die very painful deaths by so much as attempting to single handedly summon a full primal.

I think you're presuming that there's a difference between aether and crystals, which is incorrect. When Louisoix tried to summon the Twelve, there were no crystals, and subsequently when he became a primal there were still no crystals. Personal and external aether shouldn't be the defining points of the two summoning methods. I disagree that there should be a differentiation at all. We provide less aether and therefore a smaller, more controllable size for the Primal, which we call the Egi. It has the Primal's own energy in it, instead of worship, but if we interpret those two to be similar, then the only differentiation between these two methods is the size of the summoned Primal. Further, during the summoning animation, the Summoner crystallizes his aether into three crystals that float around him. This shows us that we do still use a "crystal conduit" as you put it. These crystals, and the crystals used during a regular primal summoning, are what gives the Primal its mass. Therefore, I believe that we can conclude that aether should not be a defining point for differentiation, if there should be any differentiation at all.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

I think you're presuming that there's a difference between aether and crystals, which is incorrect. When Louisoix tried to summon the Twelve, there were no crystals, and subsequently when he became a primal there were still no crystals. Personal and external aether shouldn't be the defining points of the two summoning methods. I disagree that there should be a differentiation at all. We provide less aether and therefore a smaller, more controllable size for the Primal, which we call the Egi. It has the Primal's own energy in it, instead of worship, but if we interpret those two to be similar, then the only differentiation between these two methods is the size of the summoned Primal. Further, during the summoning animation, the Summoner crystallizes his aether into three crystals that float around him. This shows us that we do still use a "crystal conduit" as you put it. These crystals, and the crystals used during a regular primal summoning, are what gives the Primal its mass. Therefore, I believe that we can conclude that aether should not be a defining point for differentiation, if there should be any differentiation at all.

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The Crystal is a Conduit FOR the Aether, Louisoux didn't use either the allagain or ascian methods, he used the symbols of the twelve as the focusing conduites for mass prayer. How ever him turning into Phoenix was not the original idea it was a last resort back up plan that he literally came up with on the spot.

And again we still have no idea what primals really are, I'm just using what I've found out so far on the properties of summoning and the rules and laws of magic to come up with a theory. I've made the distinguishment between the Ascian Method which summons the Full God (Or desired being in Gilgamesh's case) and the Allagain method which summons a lesser incarnation of that God due to their fundamentally different properties, Ultimately a summoning is a summoning be it a Beast Tribe Primal, a Summoner's Egi, or Arcanist's Carbuncle. It's how it's executed that's different.

Louisoux and Iceheart form the biggest unidentified variables at this point. I'll refer to it here out as the "Incarnate Method" where one literally becomes the primal it's self. A small difference is Iceheart lives afterwards while Louisoux does not. After becoming Phoenix his physical form dissipated into raw aetheric energy and he and the primal he created became one and the same. Iceheart how ever still lived after Shiva's defeat and The Primal Shiva and Lady Iceheart do have several different personality traits and even speech patterns.

So there seem to be three possible Summoning Methods that allow a primal type being to be called forth. But until we beat the answers out of the Ascians on what primals are to being with all I can do is use what evidence I have. That being Egis are literal fractions of true primals, a single summoner does not have the Aetheric ability to summon a primal on their own and live, Crystals seem to be required as a conduit to focus more than one beings prayer into usable aether in order to perform a full summoning, and the Incarnate summonings of Shiva and Phoenix used the summoner's physical body as a catalyst for the primal with an as yet unknown variable causing Iceheart to live but Louisoux to die.

The definition of conduit does not imply Crystals are anything but what they are. We've used them as Conduite BECAUSE they are crystallized Aether. Thus making them a perfect conduit for focusing the unharnessed aethir of various sources.

Edit: (Additional Data)
A possible variable in the Incarnate Method could be that Iceheart has the Echo and can thus keep her soul separate from the Soul of Shiva when performing the incarnate Summon. Louisoux did not have the echo but with that power it's self being filled with unknowns for the time being that idea is inconclusive until we have a better understanding of how the echo works.

Err It could be possbile to summon a primal alone and not dying, it would just be super weak because so few aether was used.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Err It could be possible to summon a primal alone and not dying, it would just be super weak because so few aether was used.

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Um, thats what an egi is in a nut shell.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Um, thats what an egi is in a nut shell.

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Not really, an Egi doesn't have the soul of the Primal, if we could just summon Primals as Egi there couldn't be two of the same egi and beastmen wouldn't be able to summon them again since they are already summoned by the player.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Not really, an Egi doesn't have the soul of the Primal, if we could just summon Primals as Egi there couldn't be two of the same egi and beastmen wouldn't be able to summon them again since they are already summoned by the player.

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Well, it does have the soul of the primal. The soul of the primal kind of brushes on you when you kill it and you take that little bit that clung to you, pump some more aether into it, and you control it in this new form known as an Egi.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

The Crystal is a Conduit FOR the Aether, Louisoux didn't use either the allagain or ascian methods, he used the symbols of the twelve as the focusing conduites for mass prayer. How ever him turning into Phoenix was not the original idea it was a last resort back up plan that he literally came up with on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

The definition of conduit does not imply Crystals are anything but what they are. We've used them as Conduite BECAUSE they are crystallized Aether. Thus making them a perfect conduit for focusing the unharnessed aethir of various sources.

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You don't need a conduit for aether. You are doing the focusing and controlling. Louisoix did use the conventional summoning method of gathering a whole bunch of aether and a whole lot of prayer to make a joint primal of the twelve. The aether came from the large number of people fighting and adding to the ambient aether in the Field of Carteneau, and the prayer at the various stones of the twelve. The crystals don't channel aether, they are condensed aether by themselves, that's why they're consumed by primals who want to gain power, because while a Primal ambiently consumes the ambient aether of their element (or unaspected aether in a the case of Bahamut, Odin, Good King Moogle Mog, and presumable Ravana), a crystal (being condensed aether) is much more potent than just sitting around sucking up whatever's floating around. That's the reason why we put down Primals in the first place, because they consume ambient aether which upsets the balance.

perhaps you'd care to explain the purpose of the Primal Aetherites in each of the Beast Tribe strong holds is for then? Because that's the linchpin to my crystal conduit theory.

As any aetherite is for, the aetherites in the Beast Tribe strongholds are a specific type of crystal that directs the flow of aether between two points, connecting them as a sort of direct gateway. People themselves can attune to aetherites to teleport between locations. The aetherites are not in and of themselves important to the existence of a primal, but instead simply connect to a secure location where the Primal is summoned, presumably because the great stores of crystals are there for the summoning and they don't want them stolen, or that the spot itself is holy to the Beast Tribe in some way. I believe Moenbryda gave the explanation during the Shiva questline as to their importance. It had a lot to do with the rivers of aether in the world and that without an aetherite acting as an anchor, one could simply dissipate in the flow of aether.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

snip.

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Ah I see now. So the Aetherytes go to the areas the summoning occurs in then. The Bowel of Embers, Howling Eye, Ahk Amphitheater, etc

Alright then, so that still leaves the question on how one aetheric construct is considered a primal and another isn't. Seems like my basic theory has been off on the wrong track this whole time. Though I will insist common elements are definite like the risks involved with solo summoning, it seems it's time to review and rework. And to think this was my grand thesis on primals too. T_T

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Alright then, so that still leaves the question on how one aetheric construct is considered a primal and another isn't. Seems like my basic theory has been off on the wrong track this whole time. Though I will insist common elements are definite like the risks involved with solo summoning, it seems it's time to review and rework. And to think this was my grand thesis on primals too.

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It's only called an Egi to reference the fact that it's smaller than the full primal, and under the Summoner's control. And you're very likely correct about the solo summoning, at least as we are now Summoners would have no hope summoning a full primal without perhaps the full power of a limit break (and then it's still questionable). So don't lose hope! And keep working on your theory, it has its merits. The idea of differentiating the summoning methods is good, but it's important that those who can poke holes do, so that the theory can be more elaborative and precise.

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Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst

Well, it does have the soul of the primal. The soul of the primal kind of brushes on you when you kill it and you take that little bit that clung to you, pump some more aether into it, and you control it in this new form known as an Egi.

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It's not their soul, it's their aether, when you kill a primal the soul go backs to the aetherial plane while the aether goes back to the earth and all living being, that aether is, like most aether, aspected, aether can change it's "frequency" it can be fire, earth, wind etc... When you defeat a primal you receive some of their aspected aether, it has the "frequency" or "DNA" of the Primal, that's why you can summon egis of them, but you don't trap the soul of the Primal. Egis aren't primal, they are soulless.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Not really, an Egi doesn't have the soul of the Primal, if we could just summon Primals as Egi there couldn't be two of the same egi and beastmen wouldn't be able to summon them again since they are already summoned by the player.

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We don't actually have conclusive proof that a primal cannot be summoned multiple times at once... If we take the whole concept of King Moggle Mog for example, since he is just a myth made manifest through belief there had to be some point that he was simply created from nothing. There was no 'soul' in the aetherial stream to summon. To be honest we don't even know if the primals have persistent souls and memories between summonings. If Garuda were summoned by a group of Ixal, and then another group of Ixal tried to summon Garuda in a different location, unaware that others had summoned her, there is nothing in the lore so far to suggest they would be unable to do so.

The reason we can control the egis is because we only draw on a small amount of the primal's aether. It is the concentration of aether that gives the primal its personality as evidenced by the fact that garuda was noted to become more and more sadistically destructive each time she was summoned with more crystals. By summoning an egi with a far smaller amount of aether we stop their personality from becoming strong enough to escape our control. This is why we have to defeat the egi the first time we summon it, so as to learn how to dominate it and bend it to our will. The fact it turns on us that first time is proof enough that even the egis do have some degree of awareness.

There is no sudden point at which a primal switches from egi to full primal. It's more of a sliding scale. The more aether is used to summon it the more distinct an appearance it takes on and the stronger its will and personality. This is why the egis look like they're made from crystal; because they are just condensed elemental aether like aspected elemental crystals but there isn't enough of that aether to take on a complex form. A summoner would not be able to summon a full primal because a single summoner would not be able to control it; it would turn on them straight away assuming they had enough aether on hand to summon one that strong. The egi is the limit of what we can control at present because the mind of the egi is just barely weak enough for us to dominate.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

We don't actually have conclusive proof that a primal cannot be summoned multiple times at once... If we take the whole concept of King Moggle Mog for example, since he is just a myth made manifest through belief there had to be some point that he was simply created from nothing. There was no 'soul' in the aetherial stream to summon. To be honest we don't even know if the primals have persistent souls and memories between summonings. If Garuda were summoned by a group of Ixal, and then another group of Ixal tried to summon Garuda in a different location, unaware that others had summoned her, there is nothing in the lore so far to suggest they would be unable to do so.

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Ultima Weapon traps the primals and prevents them from being summoned again.

Same goes for the seal from mor dhona and Dalamud trapping Bahamut, all Allagan techs were aimed so that primals couldn't be summoned again.