How big is Bahamut?

I was curious about just how big Bahamut is. Inspired by xkcd, I will use Fermi estimation to calculate a ballpark guess for how large the elder primal is.

Assumptions:

1. Hydaelyn is a roughly Earth-sized planet. Mean radius = 6371 km.
2. Menphina is a roughly Moon-sized natural satellite. Mean radius = 1737 km.
3. Dalamud is roughly as small compared to Menphina as the Moon is to Earth.*
4. Bahamut's wingspan is roughly twice the diameter of Dalamud, according to the End of an Era trailer.
5. Bahamut's height is about 1/3 the length of one wing.

*This is the most difficult assumption because there is no accurate way to estimate the size of Dalamud from a land-based observer. Twin moon systems like Menphina and Dalamud are exceedingly rare in nature so it's challenging to find a good estimate of what counts as "reasonable" or "reasonably possible".

Given these assumptions, let's crunch some numbers.

• 1737 km radius of Moon / 6371 km radius of Earth = 0.2726; the Moon is roughly 1/4 the radius of the Earth
• 1/4 * 1737 km radius of Moon = 434.25 km; Dalamud is just over 400 km in radius
• 400 km radius of Dalamud * 2 (for diameter) * 2 (for double diameter) = 1600 km; Bahamut's wingspan is about 1600 km
• 1600 km wingspan * 1/2 (one wing) * 1/3 = 267 km height

For reference, 1600 km is about the same distance from Berlin to Moscow (alternatively, about half the distance between Washington, DC and Los Angeles). Eorzea has been compared to the size of Europe so I'd guesstimate this to be around the same distance between Limsa Lominsa and Gridania. In other words, Bahamut is really frickin' big. Even with a conservative Fermi estimate, Bahamut's wingspan would still be on the order of 1000 km (3 orders of magnitude). At 267 km, Bahamut is as tall as the state of Pennsylvania (longitudinally).

This is larger than any dragon we've ever seen before in the entire game. His father, Midgardsormr, is only about as massive as the Agrius airship, which can't be larger than an aircraft carrier. There are a few things that could account for this. First, my assumptions could be way off. Hydaelyn could be a much smaller planet; Menphina could be a much smaller moon; and Dalamud could be a much smaller satellite. There's really no way to tell. The only shot we've seen of the planet is this one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../Hydaelyn3.jpg

Eorzea looks relatively Europe-sized, compared to the planet as a whole. That said, even if Hydaelyn were smaller than Earth, the proportion should still stay the same (i.e. his wingspan goes from Limsa to Gridania), unless that ratio is also way off. Bahamut the primal could also be much huger because of his status as a primal, whose power level corresponds to the amount of prayer and aether he's absorbed. As an elder primal who has absorbed energy from the sun for multiple millennia, it's possible that Bahamut's size increased proportionately.

Finally, to any enterprising Fermi estimationists, there are two other ways that we might calculate the size of Bahamut, perhaps more accurately. One, you could compare the width of the Dalamud fragment that impacted Carteneau in the End of an Era trailer with the known approximate height of the soldiers who are helpfully included in the shot for comparison. Then from there, calculate the size of Dalamud in Dalamud fragment-widths. Alternatively, you could estimate based on the size of Bahamut's claw, the battle arena of T5. It should be possible to measure the width of his hand in yalms and then scale that up to the size of his body and wingspan using the proportions above. Good luck!

Bahamut is perhaps still the biggest dragon we've seen so far, but Merlwyb off-handedly compares his size to being roughly the same as an Eorzean city (the whole thing, I imagine, not just the parts we can wander), so the size of Penn. as a whole seems to be much too much. The palm approach seems like a good idea, but keep in mind that proportion and scale aren't always first on the dev. team's priorities and it might not all line up right, lol.

EDIT: Found it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Merlwyb

From inside the shell of Dalamud came a winged nightmare—a dragon the size of a bloody city.

---

Keep in mind that Bahamut may well have been artificially inflated in size. The Final Coil of Bahamut kind of implies this. I'd say the 'real' Bahamut would have been about the size of the large dragon we see in the Tour of the North video.

I'll allow myself to throw in my thoughts really quick. There is one thing I've been always wondering about. As we know Bahamut is a primal but there is the question of was he ever a dragon (and dragon only) or born a primal and if so, does him being a dragon (and dragon only) or being a primal change his size? not to mention how he became a primal but that's too crazy for me. Who knows maybe he isn't a primal after all. Maybe a crazy lalafell was the real bahamut.
We all know who phoenix is by now and mutation/transformation/power-uppu seems not out of question.
I can't really help out with the actual size guessing though but my 2 cents.

If you watch the end of an era video, you can see Bahamut briefly against the Limsa Lominsa backdrop. He is roughly right above the city, so using this as a scale it definitely supports the claims (and from what we saw in the Coils) that he is as big or slightly bigger than most Eorzean cities head-to-tail. Wingspan is much larger. Overall, he's monstrous in size.

Bahamut in life may have been much smaller. Remember that the primal-version is represented as how the Mercydian dragons imagined him (as is with all primals). It's true that Midgardsormr's children are definitely larger than most dragons we will encounter, but Bahamut's sheer size may only be due to the fact that he was reincarnated as a primal. Likewise, he may have always been unnaturally big. 3.0 should give us more story into the origins of dragon-kind and how they all relate to each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cherub

was he ever a dragon (and dragon only)

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cherub

does him being a dragon (and dragon only) or being a primal change his size?

---

We don't have hard information on this (primal inflation), but I'm 99.99% sure this is a "Yes" as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

Midgardsormr's children are definitely larger than most dragons we will encounter

---

I'd hesitate to say anything definitively just yet, but Midgardsormr is likely slightly larger than his children and they all comparable in size to eachother. I also suspect that Vishap is much, much larger than the Dragons Seven based on the origin of his name.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treuhavik

Yes.

---

I guess me wondering how he became a primal always lets me forget bout this fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by treuhavik

We don't have hard information on this (primal inflation), but I'm 99.99% sure this is a "Yes" as well.

---

I wholeheartedly agree.

Yeah, I'm thinking that after thousands of years collecting aether/ energy that Calamity Bahamut became gigantic.

Here's a screengrab of Bahamut flying past Limsa.

http://i.imgur.com/N6pc1rr.jpg

It's hard to tell exactly how big he is because he flies behind Limsa and there's no indication how far behind he flew (could be 300 fulms, could be 30,000 fulms, would contribute a big difference in estimated size). However, since he's farther behind Limsa, that puts a lower bound on his size as at least as big as Limsa castle and possibly much bigger. Multiple hundreds of meters tall at least.

An additional size data point could be the recreated Dalamud inside T11. Not sure if it's a full size replica (which would imply the the unfurled underground Binding Coils expanded larger than Dalamud itself) or a scale model. The platform Kaliya appears on is the "inner ball" that a curled up Bahamut with wings folded fit inside.

Another thing to note, Bahamut also flies from Carteneau to Limsa and back in a matter of seconds. If we maintain that Limsa > Gridania is 1600 km and Limsa > Carteneau is half that length, then a round trip would also be 1600 km. I didn't put a stopwatch to it, but he must have been flying at multiple hundreds of km/sec, which far outstrips the escape velocity of Earth (11.2 km/sec). Food for thought.

The bahamut we faced in t13 is not the same as the one in the cinematic. Bahamut Prime is more than likely Elder bahamut's heart. I mean you can see his head in the end of t5,t9 and t12 it's huge.....not to mention t5 arena is bahamut's hand....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Not sure if it's a full size replica (which would imply the the unfurled underground Binding Coils expanded larger than Dalamud itself) or a scale model.

---

The fact that the entirely of the model (sphere and spires) exists inside of one of said spires is proof enough for the "scale" part, but how many times is quite difficult to gauge. It'd probably be even harder than trying to use the palm in T5, lol.

Forgot about turn 5 already did we?

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...12/Coil_T5.png

THIS, should be more than enough to guess bahamuts size

Quote:

---

How big is Bahamut?

---

No idea, but his hands are massive and his wings are the size of a small planet.

Why I can't say anything to the size of bahamut, since I never really thought about it, I would think that his primal form is definitely larger than his original form. While nothing has been set in writing it has almost been all but confirmed that the primals were once high ranking individuals in their respected societies/ beast tribes, which explains why they were worshiped enough to become the gods of their tribes.

In fact, on a side note, I think Garuda, Suparna, and Chirada are actually sisters, similar to the gorgons of greek legends, with Garuda being the counterpart to Medusa.

He seems to be around the size of Limsa at he very least, as for tall? he's probably a Crystal Tower and a half high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eloah

on a side note, I think Garuda, Suparna, and Chirada are actually sisters, similar to the gorgons of greek legends, with Garuda being the counterpart to Medusa.

---

It's possible, though in spite of people colloquially calling them sisters in parties, I've always assumed that they were temporary clones as an extension of her power, similar to Ifrit dashes. Garuda, Suparna, and Chirada are actually all real-world names referring to the same deity.

Based on my own estimates, Dalumuld is not nearly as big as some have guessed. It was barely a speck in the sky before 1.2 started it's decent.

From what I remember, dalumuld was probably several miles in diameter, (Earth's moon is about 2150 miles in diameter), thus making Dalamuld the approximate size of the Cretaceous Asteroid credited with the Dinosaur's Extinction.

Bahamut was at the center of this thing and bust out of it like it was an egg. From how we see him being sealed in the attempted new Dalamud his actual "Shell" was about 1/3 the diameter of the actual satellite.

So it's much more likely that his wingspan was about a mile or two give or take. Miles and Malms are interchangeable and the City States themselves are not actually that large. (Still the idea of a dragon with a over mile long wingspan is terrifying, especially when it's burning everything in it's path to ashes)

So it's likely his size in the Binding Coils IS how big he was upon his jail break at Cartenoue. And that "Bahamut Prime" was his original incarnation as a mortal Dragon. (Being much smaller and comparable in size to twintania from T5)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It's possible, though in spite of people colloquially calling them sisters in parties, I've always assumed that they were temporary clones as an extension of her power, similar to Ifrit dashes. Garuda, Suparna, and Chirada are actually all real-world names referring to the same deity.

---

The difference being that, unlike Ifrit, Garuda is crazy enough to actually name her clones. I like to head canon that she suffers from some form of power-induced schizophrenia, actively playing each copy as an independent being, subconsciously naming them and playing it out as though they're underlings in her employ.

The thing I don't really understand about primals is, they were something before, weren't they? They are right now images shaped out of aether and given a conscience of some sort, which they can project on others (tempering). So for Garuda, I remember a story about her being sane before slaughtering a snake of some sort, but being mortally wounded she survived by eating that very same snake's flesh. Is that story related to her, whatever that was, before being conjured as a primal (which means after she gained that attributes/images in the Ixali's minds)? Or am I missing an important detail?

Back on track, yeah, T5 gives a very clear understanding of what Bahamut size is. Wouldn't surprise me if the OP was close in terms of numbers. And we can still see other body parts outside of Coil, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dvoraen

Keep in mind that Bahamut may well have been artificially inflated in size. The Final Coil of Bahamut kind of implies this. I'd say the 'real' Bahamut would have been about the size of the large dragon we see in the Tour of the North video.

---

if your referring to T13 the burning heart no that is not his real size that is merely his essence on his crystal heart.

Also keep in mind Vishap wasn't even a great wyrm just a very big dragon now we take that into account and relies that Bahamut is one of the first broad the size of him being about the full size of Mor Dhona is about right. Also don't forget a primal to come into being needs 3 things crystals prayers and a mass of Athear now if we take into account the whole Dragons of Meracidia into account that is enough to summon a big entity it took the whole realm of Eorzea to summon the Twelve in Cartano to attempt to seal him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

The thing I don't really understand about primals is, they were something before, weren't they?

---

I'm not sure that's always the case. Certainly for Saint Shiva and Bahamut it is, but it almost certainly isn't the case for King Moggle Mog XII. For the others I'm not sure. Perhaps there's lore supporting their corporeal origins, but I've always taken them to be essentially demigods made real through aether and devotion, regardless of having ever existed before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

The thing I don't really understand about primals is, they were something before, weren't they? They are right now images shaped out of aether and given a conscience of some sort, which they can project on others (tempering).

---

Right now the primal waters are pretty murky. According to everything in the game thus far, anything can be summoned with enough aether and prayer, living, dead or even inanimate, it would seem. I'm known to loathe this fact, and I hope we're given some stricter requirements in the near future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

So for Garuda, I remember a story about her being sane before slaughtering a snake of some sort, but being mortally wounded she survived by eating that very same snake's flesh. Is that story related to her, whatever that was, before being conjured as a primal (which means after she gained that attributes/images in the Ixali's minds)? Or am I missing an important detail?

---

The fight between Garuda and the Lord of Snakes is assumed to have happened before becoming a primal, yes. And, while I'm unsure if it was a result of consuming this Snake Lord, her triple triad card confirms that it was power that drove Garuda mad. Likely, this victory over The Snake who (allegedly) robbed the Ixal of flight won her a heroic reputation among the beast tribe, leading to her eventual summoning.

We deeply need to re think how primals come into being because when Greg summoned Enikida solo I prayed there was a table right in front of me so I could flip it and as luck would have it one was summoned right in front of me.

At that point I just threw my hands up in the air and walked out.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l...fomio1_400.gif

Ghost Train soon to be making an appearance....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

The thing I don't really understand about primals is, they were something before, weren't they?

---

It truly depends on the Primal on how you approach this question. Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, and Rhamu are all Elements given form, more specifically, the wrath of those elements given form.

Odin, Shiva, Bahamut, and (Debatably) Mog King were mortal beings at one point summoned as primals after the end of their lives. We can confirm that Bahamut and Shiva were historical beings as Saint Shiva was a documented living person and Bahamut was/is one of The Celestial Dragons that Midgardsormr sired, Odin and Mog King both bear the question of how mortal were they to begin with as we now know it's Zantetsuken that was the Elder Primal and not the Swordsman himself and not even the moogles them selves know where The Legend of Mog King stops and the History Begins.

Enkido and Phoenix give us out best view on the existence of primals since we actually saw them created. Louisoux gave his life to become phoenix (Similar to "The Incarnate Summon" of the Nova Crystalis lore) thus suggesting that with enough aether and prayer anyone could make himself into a primal at the cost of their lives. And Enkido was summoned by Greg with little more than heartache and longing for his friend in the presence of Crystals, thus suggesting that the thought of the worshiper(s) give the being form and possibly extract the essence of the "Primal Force" summoned from the Aetherial Relm/Life Streem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

The thing I don't really understand about primals is, they were something before, weren't they? They are right now images shaped out of aether and given a conscience of some sort, which they can project on others (tempering). So for Garuda, I remember a story about her being sane before slaughtering a snake of some sort, but being mortally wounded she survived by eating that very same snake's flesh. Is that story related to her, whatever that was, before being conjured as a primal (which means after she gained that attributes/images in the Ixali's minds)? Or am I missing an important detail?

---

That may well be the case. It's just that the backstory on those primals have not been elaborated as much as Good King Moggle Mog XII, Shiva, or Bahamut. Part of this is because their beast-tribes' history and mythology have not been explored as much as the city-states. The Ixal are the only ones with any definitive timetable, having fallen out of the sky prior to settling in Twelveswood and then being evicted by the Elementals. The others are much more unclear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

Bahamut in life may have been much smaller. Remember that the primal-version is represented as how the Mercydian dragons imagined him (as is with all primals). It's true that Midgardsormr's children are definitely larger than most dragons we will encounter, but Bahamut's sheer size may only be due to the fact that he was reincarnated as a primal. Likewise, he may have always been unnaturally big. 3.0 should give us more story into the origins of dragon-kind and how they all relate to each other.

---

I still think Bahamut prime is his real size. his real form. Whereas the city sized Bahamut is his primal form, just as Phoenix is bigger than loisuiox (sp).

So, I just did T5 to help a friend out and used the 100 x 100 yalm grid square to measure Bahamut's palm (from the end of the wrist to the start of the middle finger), which ends up at roughly 130 yalms. Using concept art to measure how many palms he is high, I get a very rough ballpark of 9,360 feet (1.7 miles) as his height.

Now, at 9,000 feet, we're talking 3.3 Burj Khalifas. We're talking almost the size of Mount Olympus.

I can't help but wonder how much wiggle room there is between the various sizes of his various appearances, lol.

I could believe that. He meets Louisoix eye-to-eye while Lou's on top of a mountain cliff, so that sounds about right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

So, I just did T5 to help a friend out and used the 100 x 100 yalm grid square to measure Bahamut's palm (from the end of the wrist to the start of the middle finger), which ends up at roughly 130 yalms. Using concept art to measure how many palms he is high, I get a very rough ballpark of 9,360 feet (1.7 miles) as his height.

Now, at 9,000 feet, we're talking 3.3 Burj Khalifas. We're talking almost the size of Mount Olympus.

I can't help but wonder how much wiggle room there is between the various sizes of his various appearances, lol.

---

This seems much more likely to me and is still terrifying. OP, I think, as you stated, that your fault was in the assumption of the proportional size of Dalamud to Menphina. Keep in mind that Dalamud is a construct of the Allagans and while they were incredibly advanced, I find it hard to believe that they were able to build and launch a man-made satellite the size of PA. Even building an ~3-4 mile wide satellite is an incredible feat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dement

This seems much more likely to me and is still terrifying. OP, I think, as you stated, that your fault was in the assumption of the proportional size of Dalamud to Menphina. Keep in mind that Dalamud is a construct of the Allagans and while they were incredibly advanced, I find it hard to believe that they were able to build and launch a man-made satellite the size of PA. Even building an ~3-4 mile wide satellite is an incredible feat.

---

So you are saing that he got bigger on the time he was on dalamud? that doesnt make sense, he was always that kind of big. Its easy to know his side guys, go to T5, look for images of Bahamut, then make your calculations xd

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cherub

As we know Bahamut is a primal but there is the question of was he ever a dragon (and dragon only)

---

Yes. He was one of the first brood (I'm assuming that makes him one of Midgardsormr's children); the Meracydians prayed to him and gave him new form as a primal. The Allagans kept countless dragons captive and tortured them so their constant cries for help would keep him from returning to the aether, therefore allowing them to imprison him in Dalamud.

All in all, it's truly a sad story. Bahamut has all the reason in the world to be exceedingly pissed off; the problem is that his rage is misplaced by the span of hundreds of years. Personally, I saw killing him as freeing a completely mad creature from the grip of his own rage-induced insanity. We did him a service as much as we did Eorzea.

Funnily enough I actually did a visual comparison of player size verses his claw;
https://i.imgur.com/1idBPwm.png
That tiny dot that you probably can't even see? That's a Miqo'te.

"Let us fight a full sized Bahamut Yoshi!" lol :rolleyes: