DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

http://i.imgur.com/eFaZssR.png

In the forbidden land known as PVP.

Add this after a wipe/clear of an encounter. It doesn't give exact numbers per second, but you can definitely see who needs to step up their game if you can compare two side by side.

mnk, your dps was lowest on that last try

mnk, "yea, I was marked 4 times in a row, went almost 30 seconds without GL stacks"

"sorry, but we gotta kick you"

mnk, "..."

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Originally Posted by Gralna

mnk, your dps was lowest on that last try

mnk, "yea, I was marked 4 times in a row, went almost 30 seconds without GL stacks"

"sorry, but we gotta kick you"

mnk, "..."

---

Even with mechanics, there's no reason to be the lowest DPS short of poor gear or deaths on MNK. That being said anyone that would kick for low DPS is probably already parsing and knows how you rank according to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Even with mechanics, there's no reason to be the lowest DPS short of poor gear or deaths on MNK. That being said anyone that would kick for low DPS is probably already parsing and knows how you rank according to everyone.

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Are we talking DF groups here? Would kicking people for low dps even be allowed in DF groups?

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Even with mechanics, there's no reason to be the lowest DPS short of poor gear or deaths on MNK. That being said anyone that would kick for low DPS is probably already parsing and knows how you rank according to everyone.

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Can't see the forest through the trees.

What is with this sentiment that others must be judged by some manner of metric. HP, iL, DPS... I just don't get it. So the Monk could keep Greased Lightning going for the whole fight, did they at least hit the target in a consistently persistent manner? Did they avoid the avoidable damage? Did they get anyone else killed? No, then what's the problem? Seriously, we don't need any kind of peer accessible metric, at it will serve is to feed egos and damage groups.

It's not about SE's capabilities why this is not implemented. A DPS meter will cause too much drama.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Even with mechanics, there's no reason to be the lowest DPS short of poor gear or deaths on MNK. That being said anyone that would kick for low DPS is probably already parsing and knows how you rank according to everyone.

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Cuz there's no way anyone can be the lowest. All DPS numbers must read the exact same.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Are we talking DF groups here? Would kicking people for low dps even be allowed in DF groups?

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Would kicking people for bad tanking or healing be allowable in DF groups? Why the double standard?

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

It's not about SE's capabilities why this is not implemented. A DPS meter will cause too much drama.

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we already have drama w/o it, so the drama issue is some what irrelevant. I personally would like a system the OP mention so I can check my DPS on PS4, which I can use to improve my rotation, harass other ppl or defense myself again an accuse for do low dmg.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

What is with this sentiment that others must be judged by some manner of metric.

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Others? I don't particularly care about how "well" other DPS are doing; I care about my DPS. I'd love to be able to quantify my DPS and compare it against others to see if I can improve. I'd love to be able to directly see the impact a different gear set has as well.

Very least something like this should be added to the training dummies we have, though I'd still like to see my numbers when dealing with actual mechanics.

Simple solution to any "drama" issue; Have it display at the end of a successful dungeon/trail/raid and make it an option in the Character Configuration. If you select to see your numbers, it lists your numbers at the end. If you don't, it doesn't and nobody can see your numbers. Problem solved. Heck, just make the whole thing a personal venture by only having it show your personal numbers and let us share numbers if we want.

because then u will have ppl raging that brd dont use song because they parse lower

that melee ignore mechanics in order to keep Dpsing

that blm/smn aren using aoe when they need to focus target to pad metters

or hell that pld/war ignore tanking in order to keep dpsing to feel like a wannabeDD

Meters even at the end of the instance can cause havoc , we have seen it before

Dps meters are weapons and who does not know how to use them, better don't use them.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

because then u will have ppl raging that brd dont use song because they parse lower

that melee ignore mechanics in order to keep Dpsing

that blm/smn aren using aoe when they need to focus target to pad metters

or hell that pld/war ignore tanking in order to keep dpsing to feel like a wannabeDD

Meters even at the end of the instance can cause havoc , we have seen it before

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BLM and SMNs would never chose single target over aoe because aoe rotations do more dps though, and good palladins/warriors spend as much time optimizing dps as safely possible. To top that all off you're also supposed to learn to what extent you can disrespect mechanics as monks, black mages, etc. in order to output optimal dps.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Cuz there's no way anyone can be the lowest. All DPS numbers must read the exact same.

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Jesus Christ in a side car, I love you for this. You know how many time's I've heard elitist pricks threaten or kick the lowest DPS of the 4-6 of DPS in a group!? Too @#$@ing many!

I'm glad someone here also knows we all can't be Player 1 or place 1st with all the others. Someone has to be in second place, third place, etc. There is hope in this world yet...

What we really need is a Effort Meter, that calculates your classes handicaps(Cause bards got just about none! Run and Gun baby!), includes your say maximum potential dmg from your stats vs the target, and then how close you are to actually achieving said potential on the target. Bam, Effort Meter. Shows who is giving a sh!t and not.

I'd rather like to see some kind of a personal ranking after a wipe or a clear that no one else could see. Something simple like Excellent, Good, Pass, Close & Fail or just A, B, C, D & E if the words are too harsh. The same system could be used to show everyone the group's overall ranking so they know if they can actually defeat the encounter. As a tank I've done quite a few Odin trials and its really sad to see that many people cannot even pull more damage than a tanking tank, and on a fight like Odin most duty finder attempts end with a vote abandon because people simply cannot do enough DPS. Something needs to be done to encourage DPS players to want to perform better, and telling them when they are not playing properly would be a good start.

Honestly, at this point I'd like too see the existence of a game system telling players they're bad at the game than other people telling other people they're bad at the game. Something must be done to improve content clear success rates on the skill department. There are multiple factors that goes into getting a clear and getting it on farm, be it players' attitude towards each other, players' will to go for the finish line, their gear, etc but player skill is a factor none the less. A group of 8 zombies that will never give up will never defeat a boss if they...move like zombies.

Now, what I propose is a FORCED but PERSONAL (that means only the player can see) performance evaluation that doesn't barf numbers at you but gives you grades (from E to A) after every attempt along with a short note on how you did. Instead of comparing the player to the other players in the party, the game would evaluate the player to developer expectations of what is minimally required to beat the content without any death (barely beating the boss before enrage and without deaths would net you a C, a passing grade). The devs can calculate the ranges of the scores and their weight and their contribution to the grade and also take into account echo and gear used that is stronger than its content automatically as they develop the content. It won't be very accurate, like when you have someone with average skill at ilvl130 completely obliterating t5 even though they didn't actually perform for example or the fact that taking into account other player's support and class interaction is very hard to do, but it's a start and as the players challenge tougher and more relevant content they can see their scores gradually dropping and try to better themselves. Here's an example of what I have in mind:

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DPS grade B
Your damage output was pretty good but you took a little bit too much avoidable damage

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Healer grade A
Prevented all deaths that you could have prevented. Some over healing but bonus points for extra dps

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Tank grade D
You won but took every damage to the face and took over 8000 damage in one hit at one point so...

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I'm sure players won't like it too much if square keeps giving them the D and would try to improve. They can even include achievements for people who strive to get As alot like.. 'A'ce Healer (successfully completed 100 high level duties that has no echo yet 100 times) and have it add rewards like a special robe/armor from each role that they can glamour on if they wish, like the robes they added for getting 1500 commends/3000 fates.

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Originally Posted by Veerne

snipped cause my own post getting longer

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lol i typed my post up and decided to refresh before i post and i find someone pretty much posting the same idea i'm posting.

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Originally Posted by Saige

Jesus Christ in a side car, I love you for this. You know how many time's I've heard elitist pricks threaten or kick the lowest DPS of the 4-6 of DPS in a group!? Too @#$@ing many!

I'm glad someone here also knows we all can't be Player 1 or place 1st with all the others. Someone has to be in second place, third place, etc. There is hope in this world yet...

What we really need is a Effort Meter, that calculates your classes handicaps(Cause bards got just about none! Run and Gun baby!), includes your say maximum potential dmg from your stats vs the target, and then how close you are to actually achieving said potential on the target. Bam, Effort Meter. Shows who is giving a sh!t and not.

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Of course its not a problem when all DPS are doing proper DPS numbers, but when you got DPS player(s) far below the rest, even under tanks, then something has to be done.

To elaborate: its not a problem when a DPS pulls numbers that are expected of his job on the current encounter. Its a problem when they don't pull numbers that are expected of them and the fight cannot be won due to failing DPS checks. Not everyone has to be doing maximum DPS, but they should at least do enough to beat the dps checks. And that is something many players sadly cannot do.

Hm..after some thought I support this in content that has higher skill caps. Coil as an example. But honestly I just want a personal parser so I can go on other forums and compare But it's not available on ps4.

The fact that people care enough about DPS that they'd kick the lowest hitter despite having beaten the content speaks volumes about the character of that player.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Are we talking DF groups here? Would kicking people for low dps even be allowed in DF groups?

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Nope that would mean they'd be violating the rules of Vote Dismiss. If you were to be spontaneously kicked by a group of 3 who never spoke a word you could file a report and get those 3 players banned(idk how long) GMs can check everything from chat log to player positions, HP, and damage done to them at given times.
Party Finders on the other hand are a more little touchy and someone can't just roll up in your PF and expect to be given a chance by every leader, that leader might have heard about you and kick you if wants. PF rules are mostly made by the leader, if Party Finder entry comment says Slaying ring is locked for him and you take it; he can file a report and you can get banned( like personally by a GM). This is why lootmaster is coming. Moreover, if he explicitly says the reason why he kicked you is low dps parsing then he can get banned. Mostly harassment SE doesn't want to see.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Are we talking DF groups here? Would kicking people for low dps even be allowed in DF groups?

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Yes it is.

People get kicked all the time. There are numerous threads about them too. When the gm reports back, he basically says it's within the groups right to kick someone for whatever reason they agree on. This can be any reason.

For some reason, a DPS meter would cause havoc to Eorzea. It would be nice if SE would give us the daily number of kicks. You'd be surprised.

The best is when I'm kicked out as tank because the group (dps premade) miserably failed a dps check. It says it all.

People will kick because they can.

This is a good idea but for it to work there would be a need for confirmation to show information at the start of a fight. Kinda like a readycheck; if someone chooses No then damage will not be parsed.

How very ever, harassment would ensue after the fight:
"If someone doesn't accept, the party is over and i'm kicking noobs"
"Why did someone not accept the Parsing"
"Who's scared of the chart"
"Lol scrubs in the party"
Some people like parsing because they can see if they are improving, but many can't help but to compare their DPS with their peers who might take it the wrong way and become defensive, abrasive, and volatile; they fight and fight 'til someone decides who's the youngest.

I don't think FFXIV is ready for any type of DPS meter. TBH As long as you get the job done it doesn't really matter. 'THOUGH SOME PLAYERS ARE BETTER AT DOING THAT JOB AND SOMETIMES DO THE JOB OF SOMEONE ELSE LIKE A BARD. really touchy subject :]

"Oh no, oh no, I could be kicked because my DPS is too low, whatever will I do?!" This already happens anyway, even without an official DPS meter, hell you don't even need an official or a 3rd party DPS meter to tell when some players are doing poor DPS. In most cases it doesn't lead to that person being ridiculed. I'm somewhat sick of you whiners claiming that it will lead to players being persecuted. I played WOW for years with a DPS meter, and though some had very low DPS, they were given advice on how to improve it, we could look at what attacks they were and weren't using and point out any flaws, and more importantly, it created competition amongst those who played a DPS role to see who could win in what situation. You will always get some people that will kick you, rather than try to help you, just like you will always get the over sensitive types that cry like a child told he/she can't have more candy, whenever someone makes a negative comment towards them. News flash you big crybabies, telling some people their DPS is bad, leads them to go and improving it. If we all just said nothing and pretended everything was hunky dory, nothing would change and the other players in the group will get frustrated, but I suppose that's better than 1 person having hurt feelings for all of 5 minutes. All your attitudes do is lead to more elitism.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

The fact that people care enough about DPS that they'd kick the lowest hitter despite having beaten the content speaks volumes about the character of that player.

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Depends on the situation, surely?

If I had access to the numbers after a clear, and one DPS was producing phenomenally low numbers, I'd congratulate them on leeching a run and kick them. If they ate dirt most of the run I'd give them the benefit of the doubt for a few more attempts, but if they're still failing? Yeah... Why should I keep them around? The fact that myself and six other individuals managed to carry them means nothing, I'm not going to keep carrying someone in a random farming party when I could replace them with someone competent and make everyone in the parties life easier. Clears would be easier, healers would be less stressed, that's what you want in a farm party, not some leech.

For the Duty Finder kicking after getting the numbers from a clear wouldn't even matter, let alone be possible. Getting any form of numbers at the end of a run is a tool that would only effect statics (who I imagine are on good terms anyway?) and Party Finder groups looking to do multiple runs. For Duty Finder it would simply act as a quantification of skill which hopefully would encourage better play in the long run, which is better for everyone. I'm really not surprised there are so many terrible DPS in this game, there is no way to really quantify your performance, so how are they to know they're doing poorly? Seeing your DPS dwarfed by another sends a clear message. I'm sure plenty of DPS would be jerks lording their numbers over others, but at the same time I'd be more than willing to lend advice to anyone asking me how I got such high numbers.

If the communities general toxicity is the reason so many, including the developers (?), are against this and many other things... I say give the community a chance... Nothing is going to change otherwise, there are plenty of helpful people out there. Doing away with generally useful and good concepts, just because there are a few assholes out there just seems like you're letting them win in my opinion. Even if we just got a personal score at the end of each event, I'd guarantee we'd see a thread for posting such numbers where we'd see people asking for, and certainly getting, advice.

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Originally Posted by Darra

I played WOW for years with a DPS meter, and though some had very low DPS, they were given advice on how to improve it, we could look at what attacks they were and weren't using and point out any flaws, and more importantly, it created competition amongst those who played a DPS role to see who could win in what situation.

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:rolleyes: sure , wow is all about giving advice , fair competition , love , flowers , rainbow and unicorns !
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?q=kicked+low+dps

Forum results for kicked low dps (3,642)

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Originally Posted by Gralna

mnk, your dps was lowest on that last try

mnk, "yea, I was marked 4 times in a row, went almost 30 seconds without GL stacks"

"sorry, but we gotta kick you"

mnk, "..."

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And this right here explains why DPS-meters are a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

:rolleyes: sure , wow is all about giving advice , fair competition , love , flowers , rainbow and unicorns !
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?q=kicked+low+dps

Forum results for kicked low dps (3,642)

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I took a glance at the forums. 11 class forums with about 600 page each. The general discussion is 13k page long and there's about a dozen more forums. From the ones I 'counted' alone it's something like 20k pages each containing 50 threads. That's at least ONE MILLION threads versus 3642 threads (not sure if that search catalogs by thread or post). That's less than... 0.4 percent? But oh look at that, the threads made by the person who is doing low dps is aware of their low dps and is asking for advice and the forum is giving it to them. Those low dps players are actually way more respectable than people who hides parse fear mongering and doesn't want to play better.

Would be nice. Although I think it should be given after you successfully clear a trial/dungeon

Would be cool, and to those who are scared of parsing and declare it the harbinger of the end of the world, just get better.

The basics of your job aren't hard to grasp, and if you are having trouble understanding your job then take a look at the billions of job guides out there.
Fact is, people who parse and kick people for doing low DPS kick people who are doing abysmally low DPS, like sub 200, and there's no excuse for such poor play, most jobs you can hit one button over and over and do close to 300 or more these days, disregarding echo.

I was in a party for T13 the other day.
Our DPS was so low, depsite echo, that we almost got a 5th set of flare stars.
We reached the add phase at 7:30+
Virtually impossible to clear T13 because DPS was too low.

The reason was an assembly of bad DPS.
A single of those DPS in an otherwise good party might've been able to clear it, but what would that mean?
It would mean that this person is bad yet got a clear.
Now, this is not an entirely bad thing, but passing content without reaching the necessary skill level will leave players unprepared for the next content.


Much rather than your approach, i see it like this.

MNK is lowest DPS, but still strong enough to clear the content. Why would people kick him?
It's not like people would always kick the lowest DPS.

MNK is lowest DPS, below where he should be to actually get a clear.
He got targeted by mechanics? He lost Greased Lightning?
Where is he having issues, How can he improve his DPS, Where is he going wrong?
Instead of kicking him, the party could do an analysis based on the information provided.

Of course there is gonna be kicking people, there always is, regardless of official DPS tool or not.
But if there was an official DPS tool, it would give people incentive to do good.
It would give people some acknowledgement, recognition and appreciation as well.

Is it really for the best to leave bad players in the dark about their performance? Leaving them there to stay bad and rot?
I would see it as more of a positive change, even though it comes with downsides.
It also would take away from good players exclusivity, which they probably wouldn't like.

Although i don't see SE ever doing something like this anyway? :>

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

:rolleyes: sure , wow is all about giving advice , fair competition , love , flowers , rainbow and unicorns !
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?q=kicked+low+dps

Forum results for kicked low dps (3,642)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9vzpkRQwys

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

:rolleyes: sure , wow is all about giving advice , fair competition , love , flowers , rainbow and unicorns !
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?q=kicked+low+dps

Forum results for kicked low dps (3,642)

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I primarily played Vanilla WOW. Looking at the results, those posts your referencing are from a period of the last 5 years and those 3642 threads? If you actually bothered to look at the results properly, some of them are players asking for advice, not stating that they were kicked from a party, and some of them that were being kicked were stating they got kicked for too low HP, your results do not support the point you're attempting to make. Overall, even if most of them were supporting your point, how is that a problem? Especially when you look at how many subscribers there are in WOW. Tell me, are you anti-alcohol? Or anti-junk food? According to your logic, you're against parsers because SOME people can be assholes with them. By your own logic, you should be anti-gun, anti-alcohol, anti-junk food, hell, even anti-internet, after all, it's better to ban things that could be misused, isn't it?

I'd prefer it if you could see your own DPS, but have it be impossible to see anybody elses.

That way, you can know if you are doing all you can, but no one else can. So you don't have to stress about others judging you.

But then again, i don't care as long as things die.

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Originally Posted by Averax

I'd prefer it if you could see your own DPS, but have it be impossible to see anybody elses.

That way, you can know if you are doing all you can, but no one else can. So you don't have to stress about others judging you.

But then again, i don't care as long as things die.

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i dont really understand this line of thinking because what if someone thinks their own numbers are fantastic, yet in reality they are abysmally low for their class/gear. they have nothing to compare themselves to.

would this be better than nothing? absolutely! however, it would still require research on your job and rotations, practicing on dummies, etc. which the majority are very obviously not willing to do.

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Originally Posted by Averax

But then again, i don't care as long as things die.

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That would be a solid argument if most of the endgame content (Relevant content, that is) wasn't on an enrage timer. You can't 123, and ignore positionals and mechanics, and gain victory over T13. It's just not how it works (but what people expect). Hell, try just doing a dungeon with a SCH that refuses to dot, a DRG not using buffs/positionals, and the SMN that just ruins to death. You'll change that tune quick.

Things don't die if DPS sucks. DPS sucks because there is no tool to use to get better (and because people are ignorant to their faults). The only people not wanting a full on DPS meter are the people not going to progression content where it is needed.


Quite frankly, if you're not doing pre-nerfed/duty finder raids/or even EXs, you really have no place to hate on parsers. If you want to be bad, stay in content that appeals to your DPS instead of holding back the group that actually wants to accomplish something. If that means staying in Wanders Palace normal because you refuse to get better, then so be it. The only people offended by this comment are the ones holding the game back because of said ignorance.

This game isn't even hard, but the lazy/ignorant few are making it that way.

Maybe someone has already said this, but what if they only showed you your own dps number.
That way no one knows how much dps anyone else did.
Individuals could use the metric to adjust their strategy on fights to achieve better results.

This would keep players from being harassed about low dps, but still give the community and individuals valuable information.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Maybe someone has already said this, but what if they only showed you your own dps number.
That way no one knows how much dps anyone else did.
Individuals could use the metric to adjust their strategy on fights to achieve better results.

This would keep players from being harassed about low dps, but still give the community and individuals valuable information.

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Information is only valuable if it can be compared, knowing only your own DPS does nothing for you.
Instead of bemoaning parsing because some people might get harassed, welcome it so they can improve.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Maybe someone has already said this, but what if they only showed you your own dps number.
That way no one knows how much dps anyone else did.
Individuals could use the metric to adjust their strategy on fights to achieve better results.

This would keep players from being harassed about low dps, but still give the community and individuals valuable information.

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Which was already mentioned as being useless. Why would I want to know my own number in group content. That benefits no one but yourself, which is the direct opposite approach one should be taking in content where teamwork is required.

This is like doing Titan. Sure, you dodged the landslides, but everyone else doesn't. BUT WHO CARES! You did your part!

That does not do anything towards the completion of the duty. Everyone has to pitch in. Without input from everyone, there is no point.

Do it right, or don't do it at all.