In an effort to gather more SMN information into one place (cause really the only things available seem to be a generic SMN thread and complaints about Egis), this thread is dedicated to find the best SMN opener and CD usage!
So this is my first week back after a 1.5 year hiatus, and I'm curious to see if anything's changed.
This is what I remember.
- Fester, Energy Drain, Bane, Aetherflow can be used during another oGCD animation, but cause animation delays of their own. So you can go Swiftcast > Fester but not vice versa.
- Garuda is still more useful generally than ifrit, despite ifrit bringing more autoattack dps.
- Pets still made of paper and die miserably to most anything.
- Tri-disaster still useless.
- No reason not to stand in melee, unless constant movement will lower your dps.
- Mana still a problem if fight lasts more than 4/5 minutes. However, Ruin/Ruin II mana cost reduction helps a lot in allowing more Ruin II + oGCD dps.
- DoTs still snapshot raging blows.
- DoTs seem to be able to overwrite buffed DoTs now.
So this is the opener that I used to use.
[Rouse|Spur|Raging Blows] > [Bio II] > [Miasma] > [Bio|Swiftcast|Fester] > [Shadowflare|Enkindle] > [Miasma II|Contagion] > ...etc
We used to put thunder in there too...RIP =(
Aside from opener, only Ruin II to move and use CDs, do not waste mana on Ruin II to fester (unless you need to fit a second fester into Raging Blows, like in the opener). Instead, Fester on Bio casts.
For cooldowns, since they are 60/120/180, I just use them together with Ruin II.
SMN Opener and CD usage
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05-02-2015, 12:01 AMpandabearcatSMN Opener and CD usage
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05-02-2015, 12:09 AMradioactive_lego
Second option; mash buttons and hope for the best.
The elitists eat this up, the rest of us put the pet on autopilot and try to keep DoTs/Festers up as needed, spam Ruin. -
05-02-2015, 12:21 AMCynfaelI wasn't aware that "elitists" were the only people who cared about playing well.Quote:
Originally Posted by radioactive_lego
On a side note, anyone who literally puts their pet on auto-pilot (i.e. Sic) deserves any flak they receive. I'm at the point where I would like the Sic command to be removed from the game. We really don't need any more terrible SMNs allowing Garuda to fling crap across the screen. -
05-02-2015, 12:49 AMSanguisio
I'm sure judge will come along in a bit to add to this.
Ifrit does more damage now, if you can afford it contagion full buffed stuff and get Ifrit out for the remainder
Can anyone clear this up, do DOTs snapshot foe req as well ? -
05-02-2015, 01:18 AMSkeith-Adeline
My opening rotation that I use with Garuda is as follows (though I'm not sure if it is the best possible opener–harder to research SMN than BLM):
raging > Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio > Fester > Miasma 2 > Contagion + Swiftcast > Shadow Flare > Ruin 2 > Spur > Ruin 2 > Rouse > Fester (Raging falls off) > Ruin 2 + Enkindle > Ruin 2 > Ruin 2 > Ruin > Fester.
Edit: Also, if Elitism means knowing what the hell you are doing, then there is a problem that needs to be settled. -
05-02-2015, 01:29 AMpandabearcat
I don't remember if raging affects enkindle, but if it does then your enkindle is really far down. You also dn't fester again until like 8 GCDs later, which means you don't get double fester for raging and miss out on that damage. It also delays your 2nd Aetherflow, which lowers your mana regen. Also all of those Ruin 2's will destroy your mana.
I also am a big fan of "doubling up" on oGCDs to get your CDs out faster, because it saves your Ruin II and also allows you to condense your rotation.
I also tend to put sflare before miasma II, because it fits well right after the swiftcast|fester, and also gives it a tick before miasma comes up.
Miasma II is a spell that you can essentially just consider an "addon" to contagion - you don't cast it ever unless multitargetting or contagion is up. Therefore it doesn't follow the same "get it up asap" as our other DoTs do, because it doesn't have anywhere near 100% uptime.
I try to cast very, very few ruin II, its still pretty awful to the point where autoattacking and not casting will be relatively similar dps, and better dp/mana. -
05-02-2015, 01:42 AMradioactive_legoI'm interested in playing well. I'm interested in min/maxing my stats to obtain any advantage I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynfael
I'm not so interested in following a recipe of casts. I'm not interested in obtaining a PHD in fantasy pet behavioral sciences and obedience. I'm especially not interested in being judged by some unaccredited arm-chair professor that I'm a crappy SMN.
Maybe my "opener" isn't maxed, but I enjoy not being a control freak, and looking up from my hotbar on occasion. That doesn't make me a "terrible" SMN. -
05-02-2015, 01:55 AMSkeith-AdelineI'm going to request you cease all insults. Only will request it once.Quote:
Originally Posted by radioactive_lego
"control freak" -
05-02-2015, 02:14 AMpandabearcat
Aw man, noone is judging your playstyle, why would you judge others?
I didn't even make any claims that it was the most optimal or that any other opener is bad. This is a post for information, for people to discuss what they use to open. I just posted what I remember from a year ago what we used to think was best. -
05-02-2015, 02:38 AMHavenchildQuote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
Now you hold it right there buddy, I'm making a guide thread! Although I fully welcome a thread like this I can link to for reference.
1) Raging Strikes does not affect Enkindle. Foe's Requiem / Trick Attack do.
2) Ifrit > Garuda in generally any fight unless there is a scenario where you get a good duration on a Contagion'd Bane. Even then it needs to be something like 2 or more adds Baned onto. There are very few exceptions here, for example, opening on T9 favors Garuda over Ifrit I find up till the Heavensfall phase.
3) Pets take damage still. They are omitted now from Ground Targets?
4) The animations are still the same. So like you said, Swiftcast seems to be a outside scenario here.
Opener wise:
There are 2 openers which are fairly close although I've never been able to beat my current ones with it. The other one, which Xero uses I believe (with Ifrit as well?) and he'll elaborate on I'm sure, begins with Bio and ends with refreshing it then using Contagion if using Garuda. I think down the road it hurts you for delaying your Enkindle to maximize that open as if you use Enkindle during the open before you switch to Ifrit that's just less potency overall.
The one I've used for Garuda with the best results personally was:
Raging Strikes -> Int Pot ->Bio II -> Miasma -> Bio -> Rouse -> Fester -> Miasma II -> Potent Poison Pot -> Contagion / Swiftcast -> Shadowflare -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Ruin II -> Ruin II -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Aetherflow
The first Rouse doesn't need to be placed that early as Enkindle doesn't need to be in the opener, but I do it more for a convenience sake of minimalizing animation delay in the opener to get that last Ruin II after Fester into Raging Strikes while simultaneously reducing the wait time for Bio -> Fester to 0 so I never have to worry about Festering too soon or taking too long to do so.
With Ifrit, I use the same rotation up to the second Fester but instead of Miasma II, I use a Ruin II and minus contagion of course.
However, after the second Fester, I do:
(Fester) -> Ruin II -> Ruin II -> Bio -> Miasma -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Aetherflow -> Bio II
Yes, DoTs snapshot Foe but forum user Sunako I believe argued out it was not worth using Garuda in the opener. In using SC to summon Ifrit, you now have to manually use a Shadowflare that may or may not be in your opener buffed from Raging Strikes. This may cost you Ruin's in your opener. This is also assuming that you are using Ifrit's Enkindle, not Garudas post contagion as using Garudas would be a further DPS loss. Down the line, Ifrit's DPS which is that much higher then Garuda will inevitably top the Contagion'd DoTs within a couple GCDs. Which means ultimately it's a waste of 532 MP, even if you didn't really need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguisio
If you applied this mentality to an overall fight, you would likely being doing a noticeably lower DPS then SMNs that do maximize, in which case if you winded up that low, wouldn't you then be considered a terrible SMN by others? Maxing your opener is the highest core contributor of a SMNs DPS in any given fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by radioactive_lego
You need a timeout as well. No one was trying to be offensive here but simply figuring out what is optimal. -
05-02-2015, 03:59 AMCynfaelThis "recipe of casts" is called your rotation, and using skills in an optimal order is not rocket science.Quote:
Originally Posted by radioactive_lego
Your whole argument smacks of "Well, this is a dumb game anyway, so I'm taking my ball and going home." If you don't care about using your skills correctly, then you probably shouldn't be participating in a thread that is about exactly that. You can start your own "Isn't this game more fun when we pretend not to care whether or not we're good at it?" thread or something.
On a side note, I gave benefit of the doubt and did not assume that you personally left your pets on Sic. If you really do, then you should consider a playstyle change for the benefit if anyone who ends up in a party with you. -
05-02-2015, 04:41 AMJudge_XeroYeah, unless I will be keeping Garuda up for any duration during the start of a fight I only use Ifrit now. I used to start with Garuda to Contagion those Potted, Raging Stiked, Foe'd, Trick Attacked initial Dots, but... yeah with animation delay and the possibility of a non-perfect execution + delayed pet buffs, higher Ifrit Enkindle, losing attacks from re-summon of the pet, it really wasn't worth nearly breaking even. (Although the burst Damage looks really cool)Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Edited to clarify: While you might gain in the area of 600 Potency on the opener, in the gran scheme of things it's such a small amount for so great an effort.
Sunako was right that overall there is really no gain all things considered, to Contagion + SC Ifrit etc. (maybe that will change when SS buffs dots?)
So now for me it's just Ifrit all the way. RS, Bio, XPOT, Miamsa, Bio 2, *Fester, RuinII, Rouse/Spur, Ruin II, Enkindle (if you use it here), RuinII, RuinII (get in all those auto attacks on the boss) .....reapply Bio and get that last Fester off while your XPOT and RS are still up.
* you need to wait just a fraction of a second for Bio 2 to register, but I decided to move the Fester here as GCD dots register faster than Bio (instant cast) there was a risk of not getting that second Fester under both RS and XPOT if you used it after the Ruin II, due to animation delay.
Snapshots - DOTs snapshot all buffs. Foes, Trick Attack, RS, Pots, (Hopefully Selene's SS buff in 3.0 :) )
MP - Not so much an issue unless you are dotting tons of stuff or using a lot of Ruin II. You can literally cast Ruin now for 0 loss of MP as it matches your MP recovery tick. So all you need to worry about is that your Dot casting will match your Aetherflow recovery or at least to the degree that you don't run out of MP before the end of the fight.
Sick VS Obey
- Never leave Garuda on Sick. Contagion on a single DOT is terrible since you can't control her casts.
- Ifrit - Never leave on Sick. Flaming Crush will not always be within range of the mob you are attacking (DPS Loss, interrupts Burning Strike). Radiant Shield does nothing unless Ifrit will get attacked by something (DPS Loss, interrupts Burning Strike)
If you don't want to position Ifrit to hit mobs with Flaming Crush then that's fine. But at the minimum, keep him on Obey, so he doesn't use those other skills and will only use Burning Strike. Also stop being lazy and at least use Crimson Cyclone as a DPS increase when you don't have to worry about causing Stun Resist.
I just can't resist a SMN thread. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sanguisio
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05-02-2015, 05:12 AMSanguisioI know, I am starting to warm to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
Cheers for clearing up the snapshot. Surely, BV'ed foe Xpot +RS DOTs then swiftcast ifrit buffed enkindle > ifrit from start? -
05-02-2015, 05:28 AMNatersby
Reading through the thread the only thing missing for me was raging strikes. "Oh no, how much Archer levelling am I going to have to do to unlock this one move?" I pondered. After a quick google search I return, hiding my face in shame. :o
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05-02-2015, 05:49 AMJudge_XeroIt probably is a few hundred potency better. I think I ran some numbers on it a while back, which showed like 600 Potency if all the stars aligned. But I've started so many fights where you wipe like 2 minutes in and then you just blow all those timers out the window. That's a lot of work for like 5 DPS. (8 minute fight)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguisio
I guess SMN could have a few different options. Like:
Standard Opener Garuda
Standard Opener Ifrit
Max Opener -> Insert Gil here.
Although OP did ask for the best possible SMN opener, which I guess is subjective lol. Best for me is, costs no Gil. (RS onwy) But, your right, the best possible would include, XPOT, RS, BVFoes, Trick Attack, Poison Pot, Contagion, SC Ifrit - Rouse/Spur Enkindle. -
05-02-2015, 05:51 AMSanguisio
Yeah that sounds about right, I did some numbers a while back when I exposed to myself how shity garuda actually is.
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05-02-2015, 09:07 AMpandabearcat
People keep giving me differing info on whether garuda or ifrit is better. Ifrit is dying a lot even if I place him behind the boss. Garuda does too, surprisingly. Enkindle is placed far enough behind that tanks should at least have opening rotation in, but maybe its still pulling. We had problems with this when reborn first came out. Garuda's enkindle hits hard w/ rouse/spur.
So idk. The opener without contagion is pretty much the exact same just dropping Miasma II.
I toyed with the idea of Bio first but don't really care either way. Are you able to do 2x RB fester if you open with bio?
Since I server xferred and haven't played in a year I have no money so I haven't used any pots at all. I don't do progression content anyhoo (yet) so not too worried about that part. -
05-02-2015, 02:02 PMRonoveWhat fights are they dying in? I haven't had much issue with my pets dying (unless I did something stupid like place them in front of the boss or they somehow wandered up there--but even then one attack isn't gonna kill them.). I had a tank once in Titan EX who decided it would be fun to mountain buster my Garuda who was off minding her own business on the side ;_; .Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
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05-02-2015, 05:53 PMpandabearcat
I'm just doing T1-9 coil! Its like really easy stuff, but my pets are exploding.
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05-02-2015, 07:11 PMSleighT6 - as long as you don't have a Briar spawn in the center Ifrit should be as survivable as it gets. If you use Garuda and don't place it after the fight starts it can have a Briar spawn on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
T7 - IIRC tail swipe can mess up your pets if it's the add's tail swipe. Not sure, I always used Garuda since MP was an issue when T7 was relevant.
T8 - nothing should kill either pet. Maybe mines? Don't think they can hurt your pet enough to 2 shot it so should be fine no matter what.
T9 - Only thing that should mess your pets up is Heaven's Fall, which you can place your pets away from. Anything else would be insignificant or pretty dang weird, like the Raven's Beak explosion hitting Ifrit. -
05-02-2015, 11:02 PMSkeith-Adeline
So, the best opener is the one Judge noted? Or at least when it comes to Ifrit openers?
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05-02-2015, 11:46 PMJudge_XeroThat's just the one I use and have good results with when using Ifrit. Although I may end up altering it again, since I've never considered Miasma registering faster than Bio 2 (probably due to it having that initial damage)Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline
RS, Bio, Rouse/Spur, XPot, Bio2, Miasma, Fester (without delay), Ruin II, Enkindle, ->etc -
05-03-2015, 12:31 AMSkeith-Adeline
Do you Swiftcast Shadowflare after the last Fester in RS or do you precast Shadowflare?
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05-03-2015, 03:21 AMRonoveIn T6 I remember having issues with the devour mechanic and the boss spinning and bloody caressing my pet when it got sucked in (the briars don't hurt pets), in T7 I always kept my Garuda in the middle and when they nerfed the pets because of Ramuh EX, I noticed she took a lot more damage there from when the floors exploded (but nothing a sustain didn't help), T8 my pet would die if a Mine shot my pet in front of the boss where the tank was and I just didn't notice until it was too late, and T9 I don't recall having much issue aside from when the wall could kill pets.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
All of that is understandable though! You just have to learn to watch out for your pets and adjust their positions accordingly. -
05-03-2015, 07:23 AMJudge_XeroI precast shadow flare and just refresh it when it wears off. Which usually after RS falls off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline
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05-03-2015, 12:04 PMSkeith-AdelineThank you~Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
It wasn't as strong as my garuda opener, but jesus it held it's burst much longer than Garuda's. -
05-04-2015, 02:22 AMtikiwiki
The only reaons to use garuda now is if you die and are low on mp otherwise use ifrit as you get a massive dps increase, and pets are not made of paper if theyre dieing you need to get good.
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05-04-2015, 04:45 AMHavenchild
I cross referenced several numbers with a SMN friend of mine and we both came to the conclusion that no opener that starts with Garuda and turns to Ifrit regardless of when you make the switch, will come out positive over the course of the encounter with closest being a bio opener with Garuda.
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05-05-2015, 03:48 AMradioactive_legoTranslation to English:Quote:
Originally Posted by tikiwiki
- Garuda does less damage than Ifrit over time. So unless you're low on MP, Ifrit is your best choice. Also, [incoherent rambling].
With that cleared up; I prefer Garuda on most AOE-around-the-boss-fights because my Ifrits do seem to die more often. There's a delay when you call him to get him out of an AOE, it seems, so I feel like I'm pressing buttons for him for nothing. If I'm resummoning him occasionally, that's a bigger drop over time than just having 'Ruda by my side.