Gaining Enmity In Boss Fights with Adds

Seems like no matter what I do in a couple boss fights (eg
Castrum Meridianum as WHM) I always get hit by the adds even if I just cast 1 heal spell. I try to shake them with Shroud of Saints but that doesn't seem to work out. Is there anything else I need to do or is this a case of the tanks not picking up the adds?

On the latter issue what do you do short of standing trying to heal yourself through it? Run the mobs through the tank's line of sight hoping for an AOE hate pull?

When adds spawn in, their aggro takes on what the boss has aggro on. Usually, the tank will have the default hate, but if you heal the tank, the aggro quickly switches to you. It's the tank's job to yank the hate off you and if you see adds spawn in, hold off on the heals (unless your tank si dying, then heal anyway) until the tank can pull hate on them.

If you get hate, drag the adds towards the tank. It's the tank's job to hit them hard enough until they become the new target.

If a boss spawns adds mid-fight, the first thing that will usually get their attention is your regen / medica 2 ticking on your teammates - these hots build up enmity.
It is not much enmity, but if no Tank or DPS attacks those adds, you will be the only one that has (significiant) enmity on them.

Shroud of the Saints will take you're current enmity on all enemies and halve it.
Since you are the only one with enmity on the adds, they will still be attacking you, of course.

If you believe the tanks are going to get the adds off you: Use stoneskin on your self to survive and generate the least possible enmity and run to the tank/s

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

When adds spawn in, their aggro takes on what the boss has aggro on. Usually, the tank will have the default hate, but if you heal the tank, the aggro quickly switches to you.

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Are you sure about this?

Adds aggro does NOT go to whomever has aggro on boss in many many cases.

ex: garuda`s spiny plume comes aggroed to whomever is 2nd in aggro on boss aggro list (usually OT, but might be a healer if the healer has been spamming medica2 non-stop)
t12, t13 adds will be aggroed to healers when they spawn no matter what. i've seen adds spawning aggroed to a DEAD HEALER in t13.
t4 spiders/bugs will also always come aggroed to a healer, who should move them to be eaten by the dreadnaughts
many adds on various content will be aggroed to whomever is closest to its spawning location




Answering the topic creator question, if no DPS or tanks touched the add that just appeared aggroed to you, Shroud of Saints will do nothing, since you are the only person on the adds aggro list... It will halve your enmity (let's say you had 100 enmity points, after shroud it'd be 50) but everyone else has 0 aggro, so it is still aggroed to you.

Similar stuff happens in WoD on the wolfsbane adds during cerberus fight.
The crappy DF tanks will be fighting for aggro on boss and ignore the adds who may kill the healers (or the only DPS who tried to save the healer) because WoD tanks are usually very dumb.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

When adds spawn in, their aggro takes on what the boss has aggro on.

If you get hate, drag the adds towards the tank. It's the tank's job to hit them hard enough until they become the new target.

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The first part I'm pretty sure is wrong. The "add aggro = boss aggro" thing. Adds have their own and it starts at zero for everyone (neutral), that's why the Tank or OT need to grab them before DPS can start attacking them or before they start mauling the healers.

Some battles are designed to have the healer deal with adds (eg. Castrum Meridianum final boss adds phase 2. Phase 1 you shouldn't have to worry since you shouldn;t be healing. They select a "random" target but it is almost always 100% of the time the healers). For her adds just run and stand on top of her (basically. obvs avoid AoE) until they are burned down.

If you have Regen/Medica II up (if you are a WHM) adds will more then likely start off targeting you because of the amount of aggro HoT generates.

The second part is right though.

The best way to deal with it is to move to your tank. Don't run away and don't freak out. If your tank is competent enough you won't take much damage.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

The first part I'm pretty sure is wrong. The "add aggro = boss aggro" thing. Adds have their own and it starts at zero for everyone (neutral), that's why the Tank or OT need to grab them before DPS can start attacking them or before they start mauling the healers.

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There are a few exceptions to this. LoTA 2nd boss (the guy with the pots) has the ladies spawn with a ton of hate on someone, I think it's the boss's target. Tomahawk on spawn barely enough to get into yellow hate, they need a provoke or tomahawk and a BB combo or two (holmgang and stun assisted) to get to top hate on them.

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Originally Posted by JaderauntOnJenova

On the latter issue what do you do short of standing trying to heal yourself through it? Run the mobs through the tank's line of sight hoping for an AOE hate pull?

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Yeah, that's pretty much it :)

If the tank isn't paying attention, you can do whatever you can to get his attention.

Running towards him is the first hint.
Moving baddies-he-doesn't-control right across his face is another.
Text in chat can be another (but is easily confused to be rude because it's usually typed quickly...)

If you out-gear the content enough, it can actually be okay. Just pet your little bad guys and the DPS will kill them when they're done with their other targets.

Failing all that... yes, you die.
It's okay, though, you'll get another life :)

I'm pretty sure you refer to Castrum's second boss, where a large number of adds pop after a few seconds. When I'm paired with a fresh 50, or any whm whose Hp ranges between 3 and 4,5k, I always tell them to do absolutely nothing until the first wave of adds is settled. That is, don't throw a single cure, don't regen, don't medica. You can cast "Eye for an eye" if you have, it won't generate any aggro. That will make the adds be more easily grabbed by the tank, and you will likely not get any of them over you.

Sometimes though, you will have some really new tanks in your team. And they may have issues grabbing them all. As I have 6k + hp, when the tank is undergeared (less than 4 or 4,5k) I will usually override his tanking and cast a Cure 3 or a medica when the adds pop, and make sure they come onto me and not on the other healer. This way, the off-tank will share adds with me, half on him, half on me. Sometimes all of them on me... (very tough) Even if the new tank could possibly grab them all (which is rarely the case, the add wave is so overwhelming!), it would be a really difficult task to keep him alive if he has only 4k hp and all adds punching him. (let alone anyone else, as Aoe fly all around).
By a quick look at your character though, don't try to do that yet, you will lack Hp.

Another alternative would be that both actual tanks be OT. and let a strong dps (5 or 6k) be the MT instead. I used this pattern a couple times before, tanking as Bard while both tanks were handling adds for better efficiency.

Very often, in runs, the MT will be the one wih the highest HP. In castrum, however, i'd rather have the experienced player on adds. If you wipe a few times and think you can't make it with the unexperimented offtank, feel free to ask them to switch.

A last option would be the "old school" strategy : dps kill adds and don't just focus on boss. This is highly dependent on everyone's good will though... and it requieres talking before the fight starts. That said, I'd rather lose 60 seconds killing adds than chain-wipe 3 times and lose 10 minutes.

The issue is more that adds in boss fights are mostly designed to spawn with automatic enmity against all party members; this mechanic is actually exploited in T13 to gather the Gusts to the healers and away from the Pain.

It's not as noticeable if the healer is only healing one target as the spawn occurs, but AoE heals can generate ridiculous initial aggro.

Thanks all for answers and suggestions.

It's a case of the tank either being bad or lazy. Tanks should be at the spawn point with a combo prep'd when adds are about to spawn. If you do get threat, then yes, running towards the tank is the best.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It's not as noticeable if the healer is only healing one target as the spawn occurs, but AoE heals can generate ridiculous initial aggro.

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This is part of the problem because some healers just spam group heals constantly. The amount of WHM's i see casting Medica II before or directly on the first pull for the Tank is ridiculous. Really obvious add phases that Healers don't prepare for bug me too like Cerberus in WoD you always get that one Healer who spams heals then cries because all the adds aggroed on them. As soon as the slabber spawns you know the adds are coming so why do it to yourself when you can wait like 30 seconds for the OT's to pull them? You don't even want to be using any group heals at that point anyway if a bunch of medica II or group heals are going off then chains will get silly.

Sometimes it really is the Tanks fault for not paying attention but so many Healers just don't take care of their own aggro and then blame others when it goes wrong.

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Originally Posted by MXMoondoggie

Snip.

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http://i61.tinypic.com/2nvyzqu.png
I main SCH and I shake my head at, and say something after the third time to, WHMs that use medica II before pulls. Its annoying that they do it then take a bunch of damage in the first few seconds, and then whine that they died/are dying all the time. It is one of the worst things that a WHM can do in raids and dungeons, yet the ones who do it never seem to get that.

I've only ever died once to Wolfsbane, and that was when the OT died. Recently I've had countless co-healers (WHMs and SCHs) that have died multiple times to Wolfsbane and complained each time that "wolfsbane hates me" (no duh, you AoE overhealed when it spawned) and/or "need OT to hold the damn mobs". My last run saw me reviving my co-healer 9 times on Cerberus alone. 4 for the first go, 5 for the second. (Team wiped) At least 4 of those were because of Wolfsbane. And yet all they did was "joke" about being bad, and complaining that the OT wasn't doing their job. Its mind boggling, these players.