rouge

has anyone just done the rogue class with out doing the ninja?

You mean rogue? Not sure what you are asking, technically everyone who chooses to become rogue is not yet a ninja. Ninja requires a level 30 rogue.

Choosing not to become a ninja and taking rogue to 50 is not recommended as you will be significantly behind everyone in terms of dps and survivability in fights.

I prefer eye shadow over rouge, myself.

I'm not sure if anyone has done what you're asking, but I can tell you that there's no point in it. Without Fuuton your melee DPS will suffer incredibly.

i had the idea, but to lazy to lvlup xD (i hate the ninja-style, but i like daggers :O ) you can use some nice skills from bard. you will have 2 more damage cooldowns and the crit-buff. but i don't think he will make more damage than the ninja (or the same xD). but the damage will be enough and surely fun to play

Rogue would underperform quite a bit at 50 compared to Ninja. For one, the Soul Crystal gives you a stat boost. As a Rogue, you would also be missing all of the Ninjutsu options, while Ninja has access to all Rogue abilities. Staying Rogue means you would be purposely limiting yourself and disregarding the benefits of Huton, Suiton (allowing use of Trick Attack), Kassatsu, Shukuchi, etc.

I see no benefit or reason to stay Rogue once you have NIN.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i had the idea, but to lazy to lvlup xD (i hate the ninja-style, but i like daggers :O ) you can use some nice skills from bard. you will have 2 more damage cooldowns and the crit-buff. but i don't think he will make more damage than the ninja (or the same xD). but the damage will be enough and surely fun to play

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ive been experimenting with it and not 50 yet but seeing that materia is key to this. I have a few crafters at 50 so and other classes. I was looking for input on what cross skills others have had luck with.

Before 45 rogue with cross class skills is at least on par with ninja, but at 45 the ninjutsu destroys any bonuses rogue has. On top of raging/hawk's/straight, you also get mercy stroke from mrd.

yeah im trying to build the perfect formula on a class build with crossing and material based gear

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I prefer eye shadow over rouge, myself.

I'm not sure if anyone has done what you're asking, but I can tell you that there's no point in it. Without Fuuton your melee DPS will suffer incredibly.

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Rouge is OP if applied correctly. If you're really good at it, you can unlock the secret Cosmetologist job.

And I love that you spell Fuuton that way. Every time I see "Huton", my mental voice utters "wtf SE."

Rogue would probably be the worst option of a job-less dps.

You lose 15% attack speed and trick attack in combat, which is huge. Then another 540 potency worth of ninjutsu per minute, the usual prime stat loss, and for what? Raging strikes and hawk's eye? Those won't amount to your trick attack contribution to a party let alone the attack speed buff.

I die a little inside when people call it rouge.

My friend used to df turn 9 on his rogue. Sad thing is he was still top dps. He said he was doing about 350 dps.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

My friend used to df turn 9 on his rogue. Sad thing is he was still top dps. He said he was doing about 350 dps.

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That sounds about right for a rogue who lacks any ninjitsu or ninja abilities. Keep in mind that there's a 20% echo buff, so take that number with salt.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That sounds about right for a rogue who lacks any ninjitsu or ninja abilities. Keep in mind that there's a 20% echo buff, so take that number with salt.

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Salt meat. Moulin Rouge.

Did some testing on this myself. I'm not the best ninja in the world but I generally know the rotations.

My ninja pulled off 397 dps over 10 mins.

My rogue pulled off 345 over 10 mins. Cross classes used were raging strikes, hawk's eye, blood for blood, internal release, straight shot, fracture, venomous bite, mercy stroke, invigorate and second wind.

Rogue's opener did much higher burst damage than ninjas but it's sustained damage is low.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That sounds about right for a rogue who lacks any ninjitsu or ninja abilities. Keep in mind that there's a 20% echo buff, so take that number with salt.

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Yes, I'm sure he could do more on his ninja and the echo inflated his numbers. However, considering my static melee only did 250 dps merged when we cleared it with no echo and pushed only one ghost (something pugs still can't do) it is acceptable dps to clear this content.

Giuchie, giuchie, ya ya da da (yeah-ey)
Giuchie, giuchie, ya ya here (here)
Mocha Choca latta ya ya (ooh yeah)
Creole Lady Marmalade

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Rouge is OP if applied correctly. If you're really good at it, you can unlock the secret Cosmetologist job.

And I love that you spell Fuuton that way. Every time I see "Huton", my mental voice utters "wtf SE."

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Hold your chocobos! You telling me I can summon these things as a NIN?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...on-america.jpg

Which update was this? Was it a ninja update?

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Originally Posted by Lucke

Hold your chocobos! You telling me I can summon these things as a NIN?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...on-america.jpg

Which update was this? Was it a ninja update?

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Cute, but that's a "futon". The short vs. long vowel makes a big difference.

Ironically, "huton" = "futon", though.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Did some testing on this myself. I'm not the best ninja in the world but I generally know the rotations.

My ninja pulled off 397 dps over 10 mins.

My rogue pulled off 345 over 10 mins. Cross classes used were raging strikes, hawk's eye, blood for blood, internal release, straight shot, fracture, venomous bite, mercy stroke, invigorate and second wind.

Rogue's opener did much higher burst damage than ninjas but it's sustained damage is low.

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I started using different crosses as of late Invigorate, hawk's eye, straight shot, featherfoot, internal release, raging strikes, blood for blood, haymaker, second wind, and lastly bloodbath. I don't know how to see my numbers so im not sure of them I do know since haymaker does not break my combo's it can change it up. also the gear you use and if you have material can effect the numbers too.

Once upon a time ago I had a similar theory about THM + cooldowns possibly being better than BLM. Dead wrong.
Marauder currently remains the only job that can viably drop its job crystal in place of a wider cross-class selection, and that's due to the mechanics of Warrior. A DPS-focused Warrior is, for all intents and purposes, a Marauder with +10 STR and less cross class skills available because of the job crystal. 10 STR for Blood for Blood, Straight Shot, Raging Strikes, and maybe Venomous Bite is respectable trade.
No other job in the game can successfully do this kind of trade while still keeping its ability to perform its role.

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Originally Posted by KikoriL

Once upon a time ago I had a similar theory about THM + cooldowns possibly being better than BLM. Dead wrong.
Marauder currently remains the only job that can viably drop its job crystal in place of a wider cross-class selection, and that's due to the mechanics of Warrior. A DPS-focused Warrior is, for all intents and purposes, a Marauder with +10 STR and less cross class skills available because of the job crystal. 10 STR for Blood for Blood, Straight Shot, Raging Strikes, and maybe Venomous Bite is respectable trade.
No other job in the game can successfully do this kind of trade while still keeping its ability to perform its role.

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just to point this out, Warrior marauder still cant pull it off successfully, at best its equal to its counterpart class in terms of dps, but it will never be able to beat warrior in terms of tanking ability, which means it cannot perform its roll.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Did some testing on this myself. I'm not the best ninja in the world but I generally know the rotations.

My ninja pulled off 397 dps over 10 mins.

My rogue pulled off 345 over 10 mins. Cross classes used were raging strikes, hawk's eye, blood for blood, internal release, straight shot, fracture, venomous bite, mercy stroke, invigorate and second wind.

Rogue's opener did much higher burst damage than ninjas but it's sustained damage is low.

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1 Fracture on non-war is pretty bad. nin's 123 combo averages 233.33 potency per hit with each hit being either 50 or 60 TP. And all of that gets boosted by slashing debuff. fracture is 220 potency where 120 of it isn't boosted by the debuff. for 80 tp.
2 You parsed yourself on a dummy using mercy stroke? Bad form. I wouldn't rule out its benefit completely but for a parse it's invalid.
3 venomous bite is also bad. worse than fracture. it's 205 potency where 105 of it isn't boosted by the debuff...for 80 tp.
4 so the only benefits you're left with are hawk's eye, raging strikes, and straight shot, which would also be kinda questionable. (eye for an eye would be an extra help to the party too)

Let's be generous and say you get 8 moves for each application of the straight shot buff. 10% chance of 50% more damage = 5% boost. best possible spot would be straight shot > SF combo > mutilate > AE combo > first 2 of next AE combo. 1970 base potency there so a boost of 98.5. So a 70 tp move that does 140 potency and boosts your next moves on average to the point where straight shot is giving you 238.5 potency (140+ the average boost). So a measely 5 potency (average given ideal situations) for extra tp drain. I guess maybe rogue maintains tp well. In any case if you ended up with only 7 moves with the buff for any reason (dodging, phase change etc) it's a dps loss.

So in some ways your rogue dps should have ended up higher if you didn't use half the crossclasses you chose... but with what you chose it kinda hurts your credibility. What's that thing called where results are biased if the tester wants a certain conclusion to be reached? Anyway, if I get that bored I may run a test later. (edit: just tested at least to see the # of moves boosted by straight shot buff, it is 8 @ 411 skill speed. would become 9 at some breaking point but lol @ stacking speed for that)

But it'd all pretty much be irrelevant due to the trick attack thing.

Best reason to go rogue is if you're going to set provoke and perfect dodge some tank killer move. If you manage a strat involving that that turns some mandatory-tankswap fight into something solo tanked that would be pretty cool.

even at 7 attacks per strait shot it would remain a dps increase, your forgetting auto attacks and they are not negligible.

as for the provoke + perfect dodge thing, best use for that i can think of would be t12, the revelation would line up perfectly with perfect dodge, although to be honest perfect dodge can be cross classes so even then i wouldnt use rogue for that particular purpose, especially given that a tank using str accessories will do more dps.

Alright, so auto attacks would push it into the "barely good" category if you don't run into tp problems keeping it up. And yeah they're not negligible but if the increase to gcd moves ends up in single digits then the boost to auto-attacks would be even less...

idk about the rest, you're saying an equally geared mrd would outparse a rogue? I kinda doubt that, and rogue still has some benefits like full-strength goad. There's potentially a place, in theory, for a mrd or rog to perfect dodge a tank swap situation into a non-issue but that's not really the point. Point of what I was saying was just finishing the sentence "the only reason to go rogue is..."

i wasnt saying a mrd would outparse a rogue, although to be honest it could come quite close imo, i was saying that a mrd will not outparse a warrior.
and as far as your "only reason to go rogue is.." there is none, simple fact is theres no point to going rogue when other classes (thm or acn for example) would perform the same job but at a much greater effeciencey.

What I'm saying is there would be if you could nullify the need for an offtank in a fight AND outparse said offtank. But I'm well aware that's a stretch, that's why it's not really something I'd consider worth aiming for.

As far as a mrd not outparsing a warrior, that's not what you said, even if you meant something else. I was responding to "i wouldnt use rogue for that particular purpose, especially given that a tank using str accessories will do more dps." which is a direct comparison between using a rogue in 1 party spot vs using a tank in that spot and your claim the tank "will do more dps".

my bad, i thought you were reffering to my original post, which it seems i mixed my words anyway :P

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

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You assume too much, I said I used these moves never said I put them in the rotation, I set them for lack of anything else I'd particularly want to use. Fracture and venomous bite I used in case any fight required a lot of dodging or phase swapping, the DoT damage could be effective. I parsed on a level 1 dummy so mercy stroke and assassinate never had a chance to proc.

Gear for both NIN and rogue is the same -the soul crystal, no job specific gear or relic.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

You assume too much, I said I used these moves never said I put them in the rotation, I set them for lack of anything else I'd particularly want to use. Fracture and venomous bite I used in case any fight required a lot of dodging or phase swapping, the DoT damage could be effective. I parsed on a level 1 dummy so mercy stroke and assassinate never had a chance to proc.

Gear for both NIN and rogue is the same -the soul crystal, no job specific gear or relic.

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from the test I have run. I have used invigorate, hawk's eye, straight shot, featherfoot, internal release, raging strikes, foresight, haymaker, second wind, and awareness witch I plan to change for mantra when I get that skill unlocked. I use the skills to boost my dps up for a bit but I also have gear focused on skill speed. my skill speed is at 466 with attack power of 514