Why Nobody Plays Warrior

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Dunno what you talking about actually :eek:
My static was 2 war when we started SCOB. We now have war + pld as I swapped over to scholar and our war is the maintank whatever we do :/
We NOT hardcore (T11 progress) but I doubt our setup matters in the pace of progression

But then again I see T9 or shiva farms where certain classes are locked (not only tank to pld but also the sch/whm bit and dps classes) where I gotta agree that people put too much weight in ideal setups >_>

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

Dunno what you talking about

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

But then again ...

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Originally Posted by Werhusky

... I gotta agree ...

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Sorry to highlight the contradiction like that, but it amused me and I hope it amuses you :)

I understand the "WAR sucks" stigma amongst the general player population. There are a lot of bad WARs out there so it seems like the class itself is weak when in actually the player is not good.

I don't know the people you raid with but in my experience excellent WARs get more respect because they are able to perform all the tanking duties while still pushing high dps. There's no way WAR is the lesser of the two jobs and you might want to consider leaving the group if they keep disrespecting you.

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Originally Posted by NaoKith

Sorry to highlight the contradiction like that, but it amused me and I hope it amuses you :)

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Yuppyupp ;)

There's an expectation that WARs will put out good DPS while tanking - when this isn't the case, people are disappointed. I think that's a big contributor to their bad rep. It is also true that PLDs can mitigate more damage due to Bulwark, Rampart and Hallowed Ground, while WARs rely more on a bigger health pool and regenerative skills which is a more reactive tanking style rather than actual mitigation.

Still, there's loads of WARs on Cerberus and many of them are very good. :)

Uhh... WARs don't suck.

WAR sucks started with BCoB when Inner Beast only had a 3x dmg heal attached to it (no mitigation) and they were getting whomped by death sentence constantly, 2 PLD was the main group composition for the mid-core groups in BCoB progression. Oh yeah and Vengeance didn't have mitigation attached to it, and all Holmgang did was stick the mob to you, it did not save you from death. Also, Defiance only granted its healing bonus based on the amount of stacks of wrath you were holding, so using IB/SC/Unchained was dangerous. Everything was changed to how we know it now in patch 2.1 I believe.

However, even then, in off-tank situations and in situations where the party was overgeared WAR was EXTREMELY strong. WARs were able to heal themselves for 2k+ with an inner beast, and when you only have 7-8k hp in defiance that's a big deal. WARs were soloing portions of dungeons like WP, and mediocre players could take 4 WARs into AK or WP and clear it with no problem.

With the WAR changes, they actually have very very good burst mitigation, which is why they can skate so low on vitality to increase their strength. IB+CD is almost always a recipient to survive an attack that a similarly spec'd paladin would have to burn 2 major CDs to survive. Probably where it comes from now is that good WARs are going into PUG situations STR spec'd and expecting an inexperienced healer to keep them alive in high damage situations, and bad WARs don't handle the job correctly (it is harder than PLD to use optimally) and don't mitigate damage or do damage correctly.

If only we had an in-game parser you would see how truly truly bad some DPS are at their jobs, but right now its hard to tell : D

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Originally Posted by seekified

It is also true that PLDs can mitigate more damage due to Bulwark, Rampart and Hallowed Ground, while WARs rely more on a bigger health pool and regenerative skills which is a more reactive tanking style rather than actual mitigation.

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This is also somewhat of a misconception (and you forgot Sentinel). eHP (effective hit points) for each tank are roughly the same, due to the decreased damage for the PLD and in increased total health and healing effectiveness for the WAR. The only recovery skills WAR uses are IB and Bloodbath, and if you are using IB it is almost always to mitigate damage, not recover hit points. There are some situations (the end of a holmgang, extremely heavy constant damage like T9's Bahamut's Claw attacks) where a double IB's extra healing will really help, but even on a STR spec'd WAR we are talking 1200-1400 dmg healed after 2 inner beasts if you are not zerk'ed and don't crit. That won't even save you from an auto attack from a Bennu in T12 - but the 20% mitigation might. WAR's actually have to plan further ahead for their mitigation than PLD's do, ask any progression WAR and they can probably tell you when they need to start building wrath to mitigate an attack when they are MTing, or when they need to switch back on defiance to be able to infuriate to mitigate an attack. All a PLD has to do is go, "Oh shit! Critical Rip... Rampart! I choose you!"

Doing FCoB without a warrior is not advised (That is, you want both a PLD and a war). Warriors bring things to the table PLD alone cannot do.

And this is the hardest content in the game.

Warriors really need to be on the ball with their DCDs though.

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Originally Posted by NaoKith

Where did this start and why does it persist?

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It didn't and doesn't. You're playing with jerks, making things up, or taking things too seriously. Figure out which and stop doing that.

ive..nevr run into anyone in game who said WARs suck and noone should play them or anything close to that >.> so

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

WAR sucks started with BCoB when Inner Beast only had a 3x dmg heal attached to it (no mitigation) and they were getting whomped by death sentence constantly, 2 PLD was the main group composition for the mid-core groups in BCoB progression. Oh yeah and Vengeance didn't have mitigation attached to it, and all Holmgang did was stick the mob to you, it did not save you from death. Also, Defiance only granted its healing bonus based on the amount of stacks of wrath you were holding, so using IB/SC/Unchained was dangerous. Everything was changed to how we know it now in patch 2.1 I believe.

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Thank you, I am relatively new to MMO raiding (starting with T5 > T9, now working on the T13 clear) and this explains a lot of where the stigma seems to come from. I don't understand why it still persists, though.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

If only we had an in-game parser you would see how truly truly bad some DPS are at their jobs, but right now its hard to tell : D

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The fact that tank mistakes frequently result in a wipe and DPS mistakes are largely invisible is a large part of the problem. Although if you compare the frustration of mechanics like divebombs to tank swaps, I can understand why SE designs around the competency of two players rather than eight ...

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

WAR's actually have to plan further ahead for their mitigation than PLD's do, ask any progression WAR and they can probably tell you when they need to start building wrath to mitigate an attack when they are MTing, or when they need to switch back on defiance to be able to infuriate to mitigate an attack. All a PLD has to do is go, "Oh shit! Critical Rip... Rampart! I choose you!"

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As an experiment in overall effectiveness, I had the opportunity to tank T9 as both a WAR and a PLD a few weeks ago with the same group. We were mostly concerned that Ravensbeak wasn't being mitigated too well as a WAR, so I switched to PLD. The mitigation was exactly the same.

The major result of this experiment, for me, was that I noticed how much more fun I was having as a PLD without the stress of predicting attacks and working with the GCD.

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Originally Posted by NaoKith

The major result of this experiment, for me, was that I noticed how much more fun I was having as a PLD without the stress of predicting attacks and working with the GCD.

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Some people like that, some people don't - theoretically, you should also be doing more DPS as a WAR in defiance than a PLD in Shield Oath.

However I have to echo the sentiments that I don't think there is an in-game perception that WAR sucks, at least not that I have seen.

Many people think double War is bad, that is definitely still a thing.

Like a T11 farm recently: we got in, WHM said "No, not healing double Warrior" (only because one war could switch to lesser weapon Paladin.. she would have tolerated it otherwise).. and we had to back out so the other could switch.

Then, a couple days ago.. a group in PF needed just a tank. I sent a tell inquiring about the Drg head and ring. Then I saw it was reserved for paladin, and he said "Yea we need a Paladin."

I mean, I'm sure the str debuff from Rage of Halone helps.. but really..

Same thing with T10. In T10 I'd expect it's even less meaningful due to only Critical Rip being affected by RoH debuff. I see parties all the time with one War slot and one Pal slot.

I love Warrior over Pally. With Paladin's, it just "HIT ME". Feel a lot more accomplished holding the mobs and dealing some crushing blows.

Oh and back in 2.3 (when I started raiding), I was the solo tank for T9 as Warrior. Early when I was learning P1 Ravensbeak timing (back then it was brutal), we had a PUG. He just kept going on and on about how a Warrior can't do this, and Paladins are strictly better. I was afraid of my group really listening to them. (It was stressful for everyone on the third Beak, when the explosion occurs at same time as other damage, and is very high spike damage.. I died twice here before I decided I should use ToB instead of Vengeance here, and Infuriate to IB again at a few seconds left on debuff.. dying there ruined our best attempts to that point).

and then, something like this happened. http://youtu.be/WPV6taZUrPI

Not that long ago, while farming Brayflox Hm.

Before we start I'm asking the healer if he' s ok with the big pulls to be cool with him and not force the speedrun. He answered, and i remember, I would if u were a pally, but wars sucks and are unhealable.

Rude!

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Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

Many people think double War is bad, that is definitely still a thing.

Like a T11 farm recently: we got in, WHM said "No, not healing double Warrior" (only because one war could switch to lesser weapon Paladin.. she would have tolerated it otherwise).. and we had to back out so the other could switch.

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While I would be reluctant to do progression (farm could maybe double pld) without a war... yes, in all honesty would have also refused to heal it with double war. Kaliya freaking hurts at times.

Re: 10, add phase hurts and prey really has to be shielded. That's one healer occupied for 7 seconds or so during a high damage phase on both tanks. Double war, if they aren't i130, would be tap dancing in the rain on a slope.

Just remember folks, not very many WARs VIT spec - most of the notion that WARs are hard to heal is because we intentionally drop our HP to do more damage because we don't take that many hits, then we get addicted to 1900 pt IBs and don't want to switch back.. In full i130 VIT with dread weap I think I have like 12,700 hp with shitty food.

People get too hung up in party composition in PUG groups when honestly it doesn't really matter when everyone is so overgeared. A lot of PUG groups are pretty stubborn in having both PLD and a WAR and while that's ideal, its not really necessary for any of the turns outside of maybe T13. You can go double PLD or double WAR just fine, it just comes down to player skill.

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Originally Posted by rawker

and then, something like this happened. http://youtu.be/WPV6taZUrPI

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I should have a "ready-to-use" meme with that history channel guy saying "Xenosys" every time one of these video pop xD (remembering the 8 warriors T5...)



@OP let the plebs rage about how war is bad and just wreck them hard to show how wrong they were. I have to do that more often than not to show that not all French players are bad :p

It's because WAR doesn't have any actual "mitigation". They live through IB's self heal and rely solely on healer's to spam heals on them so that they don't completely disappear in 2 seconds. They also bring no raid utility what-so-ever, outside of a Slashing Resist debuff that only benefits themself and the vastly superior PLD. On top of that, they don't have a panic button at all while PLD has Hallowed Ground which is largely considered the best cooldown in the game (10s immunity?! Jesus!). The only thing I'd ever bring WAR for is T4 since, despite all the bad things, they have pretty respectable AOE in Overpower and the PLD can handle the Dreadnaughts.

Wait, which version are we on again?

their loss of mitigation is offset by defiance's increased healing received and a massive health pool. i also consider their self heals as a form of mitigation. do note that holmgang, despite shorter by 4 secs compared to hg, has way shorter cooldown than hg.

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Originally Posted by rawker

do note that holmgang, despite shorter by 4 secs compared to hg, has way shorter cooldown than hg.

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this is a fallacy. Holmgang is incredibly bad compared to HG. Though it saves my ass often enough so that I don't have anything to complain.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

People get too hung up in party composition in PUG groups when honestly it doesn't really matter when everyone is so overgeared. A lot of PUG groups are pretty stubborn in having both PLD and a WAR and while that's ideal, its not really necessary for any of the turns outside of maybe T13. You can go double PLD or double WAR just fine, it just comes down to player skill.

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That's just it though. The skill of pugs. If you have skilled enough players, it's apparently possible to 7 war 1 sch t13.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

this is a fallacy. Holmgang is incredibly bad compared to HG. Though it saves my ass often enough so that I don't have anything to complain.

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The problem is that you're comparing it directly to Hallowed, but it's not the same skill. Don't use it as a panic button, use it as an actual cooldown. Let your healers know when you're going to use it. Use it on stuff like Wild Charge or Revelation to avoid tank swapping. Holmgang is amazing if you're not stuck in the mindset of "I need to keep this until I'm about to die".

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Originally Posted by Launched

The problem is that you're comparing it directly to Hallowed, but it's not the same skill. Don't use it as a panic button, use it as an actual cooldown. Let your healers know when you're going to use it. Use it on stuff like Wild Charge or Revelation to avoid tank swapping. Holmgang is amazing if you're not stuck in the mindset of "I need to keep this until I'm about to die".

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That's actually how Hallowed works too. o_o

People also forgot to mention before 2.1 War didn't have a reasonable Cooldown on its stun thus making dual WAR on Ifrit hard a nightmare in pugs (alternate stuns) on eruption. This was also during the time where people would quit Ifrit hard at the start (no leave penalty) because of no blm or smn for aoe LB for the nails or a PLD to offtank stun.

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Originally Posted by Firepower

People also forgot to mention before 2.1 War didn't have a reasonable Cooldown on its stun thus making dual WAR on Ifrit hard a nightmare in pugs (alternate stuns) on eruption. This was also during the time where people would quit Ifrit hard at the start (no leave penalty) because of no blm or smn for aoe LB for the nails or a PLD to offtank stun.

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I actually loved going WAR on Ifrit HM in 2.0. PLD always had to be OT stunbot. ;D

... Though if you ended up with 2 WARS, nobody wanted to even try it. :< It was perfectly doable with 2 WARs, you just alternate stuns, but that was the tricky part for DF.

Then you got my FC who loves the crap out of Warriors.

I think the real thing is, war takes a lot of finesse and skill to be a good war. Pld, does not. The difference in skill required to be a great pld vs a great war is like finger painting vs character sketching. Therefor, there are a lot fewer good wars than plds, and that makes it appear that pld is just better.

I main WHM (i120) & WAR (i130).

My Healers love me for a reason :D

Though I like PLD's CDs, but I have a full grip on tanking as a Warrior.

PS: I fancy battleaxes

In 8-Man Content, you might want to bring a WAR, because while OT, he can do a nice dps output, which you really want(ed) with you in FCoB.

I did all to 50, and WAR was quite another style of Tanking than PLD (which is basically 1,2,3,$Cooldown)

You have more different Rotations, and with the Wrath Stack system, you have to have more rhytm and foresight about when a big hit comes, than a PLD where you can basically do "oh shit, castbar, use $Cooldown" and building up aggro the rest of it with 1,2,3,...

Therefore, my opinion, good tanking with a WAR is no braindead action where you can watch House of Cards on your second screen, therefore most ppl suck at it (including me, i would never dare to goto FCoB with my war)

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

you have to have more rhytm and foresight

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I see what you did there D:

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Originally Posted by wicked-one

In 8-Man Content, you might want to bring a WAR, because while OT, he can do a nice dps output, which you really want(ed) with you in FCoB.

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Not only DPS, war mitigation helps a lot in certain parts.

tbh of the 2 tanks in this game warriors seem to be able to keep agro the most from me going as blm, hehe
Both classes are now equal i would say, PLD used to have it easier like a year or so ago until changes were made to war
Plus the combo of having a war when i go as Ninja is great :D

Why almost everyone plays war?
"Like omg did u see how high i dps as war?" My beast strength accessories r op.
Then plds go :(

Yumi_umi
this is exactly that, but still a few play war.
Also them should use Vita/strength 110 accesries to be op.
But realy a coil group need PLD/WAR : the pld is extremely good to MT, and the war extremely good to OT, end of the drama.
PLD take a little less damage (i think the shield block rate do the difference), he have invincibility, it's not nothing, it's just better than homlang, and he is safier on Hard cleave cast because the war have to relying on GCD, when pld is sure to relying only on instant CD even if you are already input combo.
The issue is the number of player playing PLD and some few War.
When the best for the coil is having a PLD, a War a whm a sch, a bard, a melee ,a magic, a 4th dps (should be a other bard if there a drg, or a other melee)
We need both of them PLD<War or PLD>War this drama should not exist, go away with it
In the expansion we will get DrkKnight i hope he is more a OT tank, because of the few War playing