Yes, Another SoF topic (but constructive!)

I love SoF, I've completed it several times, even in a DF group. I'm excited to see more content like this in Heavensward.

That being said, there are big problems with it.

• When you roullete into it, half the group leaves immediately.
• It can't be restarted, so attempts take forever.
• The risk/reward is not suffecient for players to return to it.
• As story content, it is blocking players from progression.
• The mechanics are poorly explained and easily miss-able in-game

Instead of asking for it to be removed or blaming players for not being skilled enough, lets discuss ways this trial can remove some of these obstacles. The biggest killer is that players who've already completed it, don't want to touch it again.

So as a response to my own thread, I have some thoughts.

First, a progression check at each gate. If the boss HP% is not below a threshold, than the fight resets.
Next, reduce the number of adds. Make the remain adds stronger. This reduces clutter and makes the battle more visually easy to understand.
I've never manned the Dragonkiller, but it seems weirdly far from the rest of the fight. Consider putting it in line with the cannons/snares.

These are just some small thoughts that I think could help this trial from being the abandon ship immediately duty.

A reset would be nice but I don't like the idea of an auto reset. I would like the option to do it manually.

The adds are kind of crazy. I haven' tanked it, but I can't imagine trying to hold everything.

I don't really have any suggestions. I haven't cleared it, and I honestly hate the damn thing.

These are some changes that may help.


-Add a reset button; if more than 5 people vote for a reset, the party will be returned to start.
-Add an explanatory cut-scene before the battle that can be re-watched if necessary
-Increase the item level required to 100 (90 is barely cutting it I guess)
-Reduce the amount of Health Vishap has by 10-15%
-Make the tortoise interruptable by a normal Stun as well


With those changes, it would make the fight itself more clear and pug-frandly, but retain it's overall mechanics.

The adds should be dying pretty fast with the cannons. If there's always a ton of adds, the cannon guys are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

-Make the tortoise interruptable by a normal Stun as well

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Not that I'm saying your suggestions are not valid, I'm just jumping in to note that you can and I routinely stun that tortoise with Shield Bash. So it may have built up Stun Immunity by the time you go to stop it.

Yeah, in the two times I've done the trial, either I would stun the Tortoise or if I used mine at an inopportune time then the WHM would Swiftcast Holy. Sometimes this causes massive issues when the WHM Holy spams and causes the Tortoise to go stun immune... but not much you can do once that's happened.

I've tried this darned trial 30+ times without success so far, and every one was a mess because tanks could not grab all the adds. It would be helpful if the clock did not start as soon as the party barricade disappears so instructions/strategizing does not eat into the time alloted.

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Originally Posted by Wournsfeik_Untawhasyn

Not that I'm saying your suggestions are not valid, I'm just jumping in to note that you can and I routinely stun that tortoise with Shield Bash. So it may have built up Stun Immunity by the time you go to stop it.

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Ah, alright. I've only done it once so far and I guess the party was building an abundance of resistance on to it. Kinda figured it could've only been interrupted with the cannons like SV HM. :)

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

I've tried this darned trial 30+ times without success so far, and every one was a mess because tanks could not grab all the adds. It would be helpful if the clock did not start as soon as the party barricade disappears so instructions/strategizing does not eat into the time alloted.

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Some adds are not so easy to grab because they seem pre programmed to do things like attack the cannons so they aggro on them instantly and one add has no aggro table it just does what it wants. For most adds you just need some good Healers to help the Tank keep adds in cannon range. A WHM can even group stun the adds so they don't run around.

It's sort of surprising how much trouble PuG groups are having with this it seems like with the last couple of patches people have been raging that things are too hard but i think it's a good thing to teach people team work especially to get people ready for harder optional content that has a lot more mechanics that require working as a team. SoF is really the bare minimal of team work you just need everyone to understand what their role is. The downside is if one person does something wrong it can destroy the whole run. The other day was helping some FC members get their kill to finish the story and we had a couple of PuG's there too. Took a little while but we finished after 2 wipes just need to make sure everyone knows what they are doing. The people on Cannons clear adds and snare the boss the person on tower then uses the harpoon thing on the boss, Tank and Healers work together to collect and position adds, One melee DPS is responsible for using the LB3 and the rest of the DPS just have to hang out under his butt and hit him.

The main thing i see going wrong is the snare part over anything.

The problem with stunning the armored dragon I e the tortoise is people use stun in their rotation and when people tell them not to stun something most of the time they do it anyway.

The fight in its self isn't even hard but they should up the rewards the problem is when some one dose give directions people don't listen.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

The problem with stunning the armored dragon I e the tortoise is people use stun in their rotation and when people tell them not to stun something most of the time they do it anyway.

The fight in its self isn't even hard but they should up the rewards the problem is when some one dose give directions people don't listen.

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My experience is that pugs usually listen when someone takes the lead. Having the actual initiative to sort things out seems to be out of the comfort zone of your average FF Joe, but people usually follow directions when you explain how and why they should do something.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

My experience is that pugs usually listen when someone takes the lead. Having the actual initiative to sort things out seems to be out of the comfort zone of your average FF Joe, but people usually follow directions when you explain how and why they should do something.

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This right here.
I try my best to be friendly to new players and as the owner of my FC I generally take it upon myself to assist players with content they haven't yet experienced without the need to watch a video. I merely take the time to explain the fight mechanics to everyone in the party and then, if needed, explain and assign roles to those I feel is best suited.
Generally, as far as SoF goes, I assign both myself and a Dragoon to the cannons due to both of those jobs (myself being a WAR) being able to eat the cannon explosion and recover from in it in the form of Second Wind and Bloodbath (both of which recovers by the time the next cannon is destroyed) allowing for more cannonfire before having to abandon it to the next.
I usually assign the Ninja in the party to Dragonkiller duty as they have boosted movement speed and also assign them to Limit Break duty the moment that it reaches 3 bars as sometimes, we can get in an extra bar.
Both I, and whoever else is on the cannons, handles the snares while everyone else just beats up Visharp and, potentially, the adds as well depending on party makeup.
I explain to the other tank to avoid the feet, collect the adds and attempt to remain between the two front legs so that adds will collect in Visharps attackable frames, enabling a clean shot for all enemies by cannonfire. I also explain that some of the adds do have preset targeting mechanics and that all they need to do is Shield Lob or Tomahawk them once and after the add performs its one attack (which isn't anything to worry about) it'll then following enmity as normal.
I then take the time to explain the singular horde enemies, such as the Armoured Dragon, and what to look out for.
Doing these things almost always (not always because I have failed a few PUG runs in Trial Roulette even doing all this) helps to collect a clear. Someone just has to be willing to not assume that everyone will know the fight or that everyone will wipe the fight and waste your time.

The problem is people are abandoning duty before it even begins. And when you lose two people right off the bat, a few others are going to bail alongside them. There's never a chance for explanation, never an attempt. So the mechanics being too hard or just right are a mute point. This is a big problem, it's stopping people from progression, not progression as in lol better gear, but progression as in I can't do anything else because I'm blocked by this dungeon. As a fresh 50 dps class, do you really want to play a game where you're waiting 30+ minutes for a queue, just to have half the group abandon the moment it starts?

I get what you mean. Definitely. But please remember the tools presented in place already to avoid loss of time through DF PUG. Preformed parties through your own friends, LS or FC or use of PF. These tools are in place to alleviate the issues that come with DF PUG. And if you must DF PUG just voice that people please give it a shot. Not everyone ragequits those trials (like myself) and some come into those trials purposely as a partial preformed party. I've gone into that trial to help clear it with a lot of people I know and I don't usually attempt to get a full party when I do it. It's usually 4-5 total (myself included) and yes, people ragequit out but the flow of those replacing them is quick and I just ask them to give it a go. That alone usually gets them to try at least one run and we usually clear it in that same run. If not, it's because someone missed the first dragonkiller and its obvious that had we got that shot it would've been a clear and those same people who almost ragequit will willingly stick through the second run.

There needs to be a bit more effort on everyone's part.

Though, admittedly, when you know the wipe is inevitable I do wish there was a 'accept defeat' option rather than wait the 10 minutes it takes for Visharp to break the walls before trying it again.

Edit

Though, the comment of a fresh 50 at either Chrysallis or Steps of Faith strikes me as odd. You would have been LV50 for quite some time before hitting either of those duties, especially when meeting the item level requirement. It takes someone to literally know exactly what they're doing to reach both of those trials and meet those item level requirements as soon as possible with touching as little of other content as humanly possible - which would mean they are far from a 'fresh' 50. Anyone coming into those trials will have a grasp of the games mechanics.

"Fresh 50" as in no end game experience. Like someone who purchased the game after 2.55 and is progressing through the story. While you can assume someone has to have at least some knowledge of their class to progress through the dungeons and trials leading up to SoF, those you'll duty finder through quickly. Reaching this point and being blocked from progression isn't good and it greatly frustrates more casual players who just want to progress the story.

Like I said, I love this trial, think the mechanics are great. But anytime you see people abandoning duty you have to recognize it as a problem that hurts the overall health of the game.

I loved SoF. But however I disliked all the ego in df. It took 10 minutes to explain the fight. 10 minute explanation is too long. I don't think this dungeon needs to be nerfed or changed. People just need to figure it out. It isn't that complicated.

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Originally Posted by Kemiko

when you know the wipe is inevitable I do wish there was a 'accept defeat' option rather than wait the 10 minutes it takes for Visharp to break the walls before trying it again.

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This. So frustrating to know you have blown it but still need to waste all that time waiting for the thing to run its course.