The final part of ARR story doesn't make enough sense.

Despite I really like how you can see a long running cut-scene deserved to be an ending of the game. The scene was kind of forced with intention "just want to have a bad ending, to motivate players to solve problem in next chapter" feeling into it.

First of all, it doesn't make sense at all. We, warrior of light, is the strongest person out there acting nothing in front of those events. We destroyed Allagan emperior, Cloud of darkness, Ascians, Empire best man, primals, and all. None of brass-blade or any crystal brave solder will ever win any of those no matter how many people they gang up upon. And we simply become a helpless person out there suddenly, doing nothing, and let all the NPC show their turn. We just love to being captured, and uncaptured by them somehow?

What about Echo power?
Do we forget how we always solve all the detective problem using Echo before? (If you have played 1.0, or play through many story quests, then you know how good a detective our character always have been!) This story can be unwinded so easily by simple capture those enemies head right on the spot there and then use echo on them!

Solution to this?
Well, we have all the important/strong NPC over there right on the spot. We have Raubian on our side also! Combine the strength if Warrior of Light is willing to do anything, we simply have enough resourced to capture everybody on the spot and use echo on them. Our name will be cleaned very quickly. I cannot see how we can't win the fight despite being out numbers. I believe that in the next fight, we will have to fight through a lot more solder in order to reach the head of the enemy as a boss of a dungeon anyway, and we will be able to manage that. But the situation now which is easier, we just run away helplessly....

All in all, I understand how they want to force an event where we need to go to Ishgard, and that they think it is better to have a bad ending, so that players would have more motivation to play again. However, the story itself doesn't really justify enough for me. If they want us to really lose so much like that, they should have a few empire captain equal strength to White Raven or Black Wolf on the spot to kick us out..

Except that we don't have the power of Echo anymore since it has been removed by the dragon Midgarsomr at the end of the Keeper of the Lake quest / instance...

Yes, it is a big problem and could have been done with the same result, wiht just some differences, so it makes more sense.

1. Let Kan and Merl be outside. Chaos starts and they could go to their city states without looking like ****, who just let their main ally being mutilated by a mercenary in front of their eyes.
2. Let Raubahn be alone with the Lalas (and their guards) -> also no witnesses, there were far too many on the banquet, when the assassination of the Sultana was announced, no way to hide this.
3. Just blame the assassination on the Scions - including the WoL - in total. The Sultana was poisoned. It's absolutely dumb to blame this on the person inside the room, no stranger to the house would poison someone like that. It would have made much more sense, if they had put the poison vial into the luggage of one of the Scions and find it there after the assassination. This would have raised much more eyebrows. The whole vial scene made not much sense. We could have talked to soo many people about it on the way home, in Uldah, could have asked Alchemists and so on, so many people who then could later attest, that we didn't have a vial with poison, but this empty one and asked a lot of questions about it, something an assassin wouldn't do.
4. Give the Scions a real reason for their sacrifice. It's okay, that we do not slaughter half of the Brass Blades (even though it seems quite possible, since two alone can fight dozens of them, so what would the whole group be able to do, including powerful heals from the WoL and Ysh? But they chatted far too long, wasting time and I really don't see any reason, why those Brass Blades and Crystal Braves must be delayed. I don't see how they could be faster than us.

The outcome could be exactly the same, there are just some little points, which make it feel so odd and that's quite sad. :(

Would also maybe be better, if we just get a disguise spell, when we enter the cities. That everyone loves us (because well, they can't just kick the players out of the cities or Uldah, this would really hurt the gameplay) does not make much sense. This would mean, that the coup totally failed and that we really got no reason to flee.

And yes:
Personally I would just have helped Raubahn (Scions were there, all got their weapons and if we really did not have ours when with the Sultana, I'm sure that one of them would have it, who else?) to kill the traitors and Lolo. Who would know? We were alone in there, would just blame the assassination on them (which is the truth anyway, hell, we even HEARED the confession) and well, they resisted and tried to kill Raubahn, Kan and Merl, too, so it was just self defense. Don't think, that the three leaders or Scions would have had so much probs with that...
Don't think, that Mr. Traitor and Lolo - no matter what they got on their side - would have much of a chance against the Flame's general, the WoL and the Scions (even if Merl and Kan would not help or be elsewhere).

Now everything is far more f**** up.

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Originally Posted by Tinibou

Except that we don't have the power of Echo anymore since it has been removed by the dragon Midgarsomr at the end of the Keeper of the Lake quest / instance...

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We don't have the blessing of light, but we still got the echo. But it is not needed for this case. We got the confession of the assassin. And well, who would the people believe? Mr. Oligarch (if we let him live) or the Flame's general and the Scions, who are known to have saved the life of the citizens of all three city states more than one time?

EDIT:
@ Poison Vial
If there are really such strict rules about weapons, when you meet the Sultana, the guards would have searched us - and would have seen the empty vial. Since it was all for the Sultana's safety, they would for sure not allow people to get in there with some odd liquids in their pocket.

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Originally Posted by Tinibou

Except that we don't have the power of Echo anymore since it has been removed by the dragon Midgarsomr at the end of the Keeper of the Lake quest / instance...

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We got the Blessing removed, the one that protects us from the Ascians. The Echo still seems to be in-play (which brings up the question of if that comes from Hydaelyn at all but that's a topic for another thread).

While I'm willing to buy that we didn't fight back because we are cool-headed thinkers who consider long-term implications to rash actions (which fits my character, at least) in future I would like the bad-guys to show up with our retainers held hostage or somesuch, just to give all characters a better set of motivations.

While it's true that from a gameplay standpoint we have the power to fell Primals and such, the main thing that lets us do this so easily is the Echo - because we're immune to tempering, we're able to take them on with far less danger than is normally associated. There's nothing saying other people don't have the martial prowess to match us, though. In fact the Company of Heroes felled both Titan and Leviathan in the past, albeit with heavy losses.

As for detective work and proving your innocence, it'd be a pretty trivial thing to do if you had a fair trial. Emphasis on fair. The Ul'dahn government is so corrupt now that reality has become a commodity. Lolorito wants you out of the picture, so even if you were afforded a trial there's no way you'd be declared innocent.

I know it is kind of a stretch, but all the impossible feats we accomplished like taking on primals, the empire, and other major feats were done with a party, not just you alone. Even in cutscenes, the NPC's mention you need to gather your companions and go in and fight.

Look at previous Final Fantasy's. FFX for example, you have taken down major sinspawns and other major enemies, but you are still running from Seymour's guards to escape. I know it seems ridiculous that our character seems like he is against normal soldiers, but in a story perspective, being surrounded by a bunch of swords to your neck and going guns blazing instead of being handcuffed would make you look more guilty.

Not saying this was the most well written thing ever, but sometimes this is just a thing. This logic has been done so many times in various games.

fighting back would only serve t o prove we killed sultana. also there seems to be bigger players behind the monetarists, if you watch the cs after the credits ( very important cutscenes btw !!) you could see lolorito was not very happy when the maiden reported to him ... as in he had no choice but to be part of the whole mess.

The issue is, up til this point we've been fighting 'enemies of the state': primals, beastmen, etc. Enemy combatants, in other words. There is a difference between doing that, and attacking the leaders of a country after they've publicly accused us of assassination. For the same reason the leaders of the other nations left once things at the banquet started going off the rails -- the situation is on the razor's edge of civil war and resorting to violence to take the 'easy' way out of eliminating our enemies in Uldah and the Crystal Braves would come across as us behaving as the lawless criminals they're accusing us of being.

As much as it's frustrating, this situation can't be fixed by us just running around Uldah killing the people against us. At least not at this point, yet.
We have Pipin on our side and other sympathizers in Ul'dah who will help us straighten things out eventually.

1) We can be as strong as we damn well like but it wouldn't do squat for us in that situation. Beating the snot out of the Brass Blades, the Crystal Braves and the current lawful leaders of Ul'dah as well as quite possibly corrupt Sultansworn wouldn't have proved our innocence. Infact it would make us look more guilty. This wasn't a fight we could win with strength of arms without dire ramifications. Killing Ul'dah's law enforcers and leaders in mass while we are under accusation of assassination would not only make us look guilty but quite likely turn public sentiment against Raubahn, who is both our friend and ally, a foreigner and someone known to have been close to a high ranked Garlean spy. We would look as guilty as hell.

2) The Echo would be pretty useless. We know we are innocent. We know they are guilty. The Echo isn't going to prove that to anyone except ourselves which we don't need to do. More over, we don't control the Echo. It gives us visions at random. It's not like we can just turn it on at a whim.

3) The Grand Company Leaders had no choice but to leave. There was nothing they could do in that situation which wouldn't make the situation worse. Lets be clear here. We were accused of regicide by our own military unit. They had done nothing at that point unlawful under Ul'dah law to us. Sure they were part of a conspiracy but we had no way to prove that and neither did anyone else in that room on our side. Raubahn killed Teledji unlawfully, without proof of any crime and without any form of trial. It was an assassination. If the Grand Company Leaders had stepped they would have been aiding a person accused of assassinating the sultana and a person guilty of assassinating a syndicate member. The political ramifications would be dire. Even us aiding Raubahn would have done less damage than too foreign leaders assisting directly in a coup.

We ran because until we can get proof that shows we are innocent there is nothing we can do. Slaughter would have just made it worse. Further we cant be sure all the members of the Monetarists were there. They would have a field day undermining our credibility and spreading doubt and suspicion. Worse, if Lolorito got out of that room and I wouldn't rule such a possibility out, it would be an outright civil war. The Eorzean Alliance would be crippled and while Ishgard was ravaged by dragons Garlemald would have a field day taking territory from a weakened Ul'dah. If the Immortal Flames were battling the Brass Blades, the Crystal Braves and a decent portion of the Sultansworn who are in Lolorito's pocket, who would be defending the frontlines?

Actually the fact we retreated is one of the reasons we can still walk the streets of Ul'dah. Most of the commonfolk have doubts about our guilt. If we slaughtered Ul'dah's police force and leaders that would likely change.

Ok to clear a few things up we still have the echo its the blessing of light that was sealed by Midy the echo is our deffence against tempering from a primal and lets us comun with different races and understand other languages ie beast men.

For why the Merlyweb and Kan E did nothing this is a political reason if they just jumped right in it cause problems Garmald has a new younger stronger emperor now who is gathering his forces for another invasion of eorzea they step into the crap going on in Ul dah right now it rip it apart and give Garmald a perfect spot to start their invasion right in the middle of Eorzea.

Al mahigo was invaded very easy because of this very reason they had the strongest standing army in Eorzea but internal problems fave them an opening to be invaded Rhaban being an Al mahigan refuge probly knew the same thing would happen to Ul dah if an all out civil war started so opted to tell the others to run away so they could find the real conspirators. And thats why it went down this way if Ul dah was in a civil war its outing a giant HEY ATTACK HERE WE GOT PROBLEMS HERE MUCH EASYER TO INVADE HERE.

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

fighting back would only serve t o prove we killed sultana. also there seems to be bigger players behind the monetarists, if you watch the cs after the credits ( very important cutscenes btw !!) you could see lolorito was not very happy when the maiden reported to him ... as in he had no choice but to be part of the whole mess.

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No, fleeing proves this.

Minor nitpick: we didn't destroy the Allagan Empire...

Okay, resume thread.

As others have said, Midgardsormr merely stripped the player of 'Hydaelyn's Blessing' (that is, the Crystals of Light) and not the Echo - we still have the Echo and are still completely immune to Primal influence. We just don't have the power that the Crystals of Light granted us any more (i.e. the impenetrable shield Hydaelyn threw up to protect us from Ultima during Operation Archon, and the materialization of the Blade of Light to dispatch Lahabrea). Our strength has basically been cut back to how we were near the start after gaining the Echo but before we started collecting the Crystals. We're still powerful, but the blessing of the Light had empowered us so much more.

Actually escaping in order to clear our name instead of slaughtering everyone against us was the better option, as if we had fought back it indeed would only have ended up making us look guilty, as anyone with a modicum of common sense could tell the whole thing was clearly a set-up - the Syndicate's motives were so utterly transparent they were basically made of glass, no wonder Raubahn didn't buy it for a second, and that neither do other npcs.

Hence, as much as ARR ends on a cliffhanger, I have no doubt that things will soon work out - our name will be cleared as will the Scions, Lorolitio and his Monetarist cronies will be exposed to everyone as the regicidal traitors they are, and Raubahn will be freed and end up getting his revenge. Hells, I'd be more surprised if Nanamo actually is proven to have lost her life and doesn't come back alive and well (her 'assassination' instead being staged), as this is a common situation that has happened throughout the series and eventually the result is this trope. ;)

In fact, SE has essentially hinted this will be the case a while ago when they mentioned that they're planning on players eventually being able to solo dungeons by 'leading a team of Grand Company soldiers into battle' - if we've been rendered persona nullis as a result of the Syndicate's conspiracy, then there would be no narrative way we would be given a position of authority in a GC, unless by that stage we've been vindicated. ;)

Derek raises a very interesting point though - the civil strife in Ul'dah is awfully similar to what happened in Ala Mhigo - we know Lorolitio has Imperial contacts and is not shy of dealing with them. It would not surprise me at all if he is secretly in the employ of the Empire and was specifically instructed to overthrow Ul'dah's monarchy as a prelude for Imperial invasion (as a similar situation occurred in Ala Mhigo). But I guess we'll find out in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

No, fleeing proves this.

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Killing people would make you look more guilty. You might look guilty fleeing, but doing so at least gives you opportunity to prove your innocence. You accomplish nothing taking down the syndicate on the spot. Look at Raubahn for example. Well respected and trusted leader, all that completely destroyed fighting back and now sits in a cell with only one arm.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

No, fleeing proves this.

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Most of the Brass Blades are innocent. They are a militant organization following orders from the top. In fact, a good majority of Blades and Braves know you weren't involved, but still have their duty to fulfill. Fighting your way out of that room would have cost the lives of innocent people. Fleeing is much better alternative.

Remember there are other ways to solve a problem rather than resorting to violence every time. You and the Scions know you have powerful friends supporting you. You also know the situation in Ishgard is dire and needs resolved. It's the perfect opportunity to bide your time and formulate a plan while still being able to assist others who need it

Helping Raubahn would further help TelAdel/Lolorito's case against the WoL and the Scions in witchcraft (likely they mean the Echo) and Nanamo's death. There was just no way to win in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Killing people would make you look more guilty. You might look guilty fleeing, but doing so at least gives you opportunity to prove your innocence. You accomplish nothing taking down the syndicate on the spot. Look at Raubahn for example. Well respected and trusted leader, all that completely destroyed fighting back and now sits in a cell with only one arm.

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Never said we should slaughter the Brass, for what? Why do people always think of slaughtering the Brass? I dont't get it.
We should have slaughtered Ilberd and Lolo. Who should accuse after after they are gone? Raubahn?

But even without: Just staying for a trial. Really would like to see, how Lolo tries to convince the people, that we have killed the Sultana so he can take over Uldah. :o

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

Helping Raubahn would further help TelAdel/Lolorito's case against the WoL and the Scions in witchcraft (likely they mean the Echo) and Nanamo's death. There was just no way to win in this situation.

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They would be dead. How would this help them?

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Never said we should slaughter the Brass, for what? Why do people always think of slaughtering the Brass? I dont't get it.
We should have slaughtered Ilberd and Lolo. Who should accuse after after they are gone? Raubahn?

But even without: Just staying for a trial. Really would like to see, how Lolo tries to convince the people, that we have killed the Sultana so he can take over Uldah. :o


They would be dead. How would this help them?

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Pretty sure if you killed Ilberd and Lolorito, the brass blades would go after you, even the ones not involved in the conspiracy, you've just killed the Commander of a Grand Company and a member of Ul'dah's government, you'd be killed, or thrown into the Marasaja Pit.

Yes, we did take on the Cloud of Darkness, Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and so on, but we never did any of this alone.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

Pretty sure if you killed Ilberd and Lolorito, the brass blades would go after you, even the ones not involved in the conspiracy, you've just killed the Commander of a Grand Company and a member of Ul'dah's government, you'd be killed, or thrown into the Marasaja Pit.

Yes, we did take on the Cloud of Darkness, Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and so on, but we never did any of this alone.

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Why should they? The Brass Blades are mainly paid sell swords. If the guy who pays them is dead, why should they serve him any longer? Same with the Crystal Brave traitors. They would just wait for the next guy who pays them. And for most of them it would be pretty clear: Lolo killed the Sultana to become sole ruler of Uldah. What should they say about this?

Commander of a Great Company? Ilberd? Alphinaud is the commander. Killing Ilberd because he attacked the General of Uldah - it would be the same as the imperial spy inside the Flames. Happens. We would have saved the day again. Maybe some would frown. Who cares. People don't need to like us, we still would have saved them from tyranny. Could sleep with that. Can't sleep with running away and leaving the poor people of Uldah to the bloody claws of this Nazi Lala.

Well we saw what happened to The Flame General when he lost his shit in front of The Gods and every one. He literally murdered Telidji Adaledji in front of dozens of eye witnesses and then made an attempt on Lolorito.

So they can charge him with Murder and Attempted Murder quite easily. Though no one would contest that Adaledge provoked him before hand i'm sure. Not even Lolorito would likely contest that.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Why should they? The Brass Blades are mainly paid sell swords. If the guy who pays them is dead, why should they serve him any longer? Same with the Crystal Brave traitors. They would just wait for the next guy who pays them. And for most of them it would be pretty clear: Lolo killed the Sultana to become sole ruler of Uldah. What should they say about this?

Commander of a Great Company? Ilberd? Alphinaud is the commander. Killing Ilberd because he attacked the General of Uldah - it would be the same as the imperial spy inside the Flames. Happens. We would have saved the day again. Maybe some would frown. Who cares. People don't need to like us, we still would have saved them from tyranny. Could sleep with that. Can't sleep with running away and leaving the poor people of Uldah to the bloody claws of this Nazi Lala.

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Because Lolorito and Ilberd aren't the only heads on the Hydra, killing them would only make it easier for more to take their place. Also, THREE important people die the same night? A lot of the smallfolk would lump their deaths in with the Sultana's assassination, probably assume that its a takeover manuvere by Raubahn and the Scions. Imagine the reaction if Prime Minister of the UK, The Queen and the head of NATO got murdered on the same night, and that someone was confirmed to be responsible for two of these deaths, most people would assume that they were responsible for the third death.

Alphinaud was the commander, then he had the sword to his neck, Ilberd will have assumed his role. Also, Raubahn took the first swing, he killed one of the Syndicate, it wouldn't take much for them to spin some bullshit about him.

Lolo hired Ilberd to kill the Sultana. Both fought back, when they were caught and died. End. Nobody gives a **** about Ilberd. Most people of Uldah for sure do not even know him.

And sure, there may be more heads, but they don't got the position to take over Uldah like Lolo did now.

And why should anyone assume, that the Scions would take over Uldah? The Scions would not do anything like that. It's super pointless to even think in that direction. They got nothing to do with Uldah, they just risk their lifes to save people. That's all. No politics.

Sure, maybe people could think that it may have been a plot of Raubahn. but really: everyone saw how much he loved the Sultana, many guests saw, how the message of her death enraged him. And as long as Raubahn would not declare himself the leader or even try it, it would also be no coup in the slightest. The goal of a coup is, that the putschists come to power. As Lolo did now...

Image the reaction of the people, if the Queen of the UK is getting murdered and the Prime Minister gets the sole power in the whole land and is blaming that to... let's say to Interpol. And then imagine, that the Queens and the Prime Minister are getting murdered and his conspiracy is revealed by Interpol, that he killed the Queen to become the sole leader. What makes more sense.

The Crystal Braves are not even close to being something like the NATO. The alliance between the three states is something like that. So actually Raubahn is more of a NATO leader...

Ilberd is just some commander of a bunch of mercenaries. So more like the 2nd in command of blackwater/academy.

Alphinaud was still the commander, it does not work this way, that he can just take over power like that in mere minutes. This actually just proves Ilberd's treason.

Raubahn killed one of the assassins of the Sultana. That would be the story if we wouldn't have fled. Now Raubahn of course is a murder, just like us. And the real murder is the king of Uldah and can do whatever he wants, for example invite the empire. Sure, this may not happen, but it could and we just fled to save ourselves and make this possible. We played with the whole fate of Eorza this way, just because we are suddenly cowards.

If we simply would have stayed for a trial, it would have all been a much bigger problem for Lolo. The people don't trust him. They trust us. They see, that we go not wish for power over Uldah (how anyway?). But he does. He got by far the biggest motive to kill the Sultana. We got none. But we fled. And even if people may think, that we are not guilty of murder, we are indeed guilty of having marooned them. Everything what will happen now in Uldah is at least partly our fault. We could have done something. We could have at least tried. But we just let them win. Everything. Everything worked out pretty perfect for them. For sure better than they could have hoped for.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

snip

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When few know what actually happened, those few could EASILY twist the telling of events in a given direction. Earth history is plenty proof of this. There were Brass Blades in the vicinity - if you killed Lolorito and Ilberd, every Brass Blade under their payroll, and some of those that aren't (because orders are orders), is going to come after you. There would be undeniable proof of your wrongdoing, if you were even able to walk out of that situation in one piece - which, let's face it, even the almighty Warrior of Light can't hold off hundreds or thousands of enemies by him/herself. If even one of those Blades was left alive, he'd be able to spread the information of not only suspected regicide, but confirmed murder of a government official and every single guard you've killed, which would completely shatter your reputation among the smallfolk. On the other hand, if you left a massive trail of bodies, that's more or less the same effect.

You're trying to make the resolution sound easier than it is. Killing the ringleaders of the coup would only make your position much, MUCH worse.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

If we simply would have stayed for a trial, it would have all been a much bigger problem for Lolo.

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Staying for a trial is pointless. While we would have the support of the populace, the fact is that we were alone with the Sultana and had a vial of the poison that killed her on our person. There's no way to prove our innocence without honest testimony from Nanamo's handmaiden, Laurentius, and Ilberd - and there's also no way they'd give honest testimony while they're in Lolorito's pocket. Even then, Lolorito could probably bribe enough of the jury to get the outcome he wants. Even if they disagree with the law and know it's corrupt, there's nothing the citizens can legally do to fight back against it, especially when the sole remaining authority figure basically owns the police force.

This is all, of course, assuming Ul'dahn trials are the same in structure as U.S. trials.

Staying would leave us imprisoned for life at best, executed at worst.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

If we simply would have stayed for a trial, it would have all been a much bigger problem for Lolo. The people don't trust him. They trust us.

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That's a number of assumptions.

1) Assuming the trial system has anything to do with the people and isn't just a single person or tribunal

2) Assuming that Lolorito wouldn't rig the selection of the jury or magistrate

3) Assuming that Lolorito wouldn't also rig the determination of guilt

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Snip.

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Uuuuh, I'll let you in on a secret. They had no intention of putting us on trial. They were going to "Detain Us" and then take us out in the middle of the Sangolli and kill us where no one would find us.

THAT'S why we ran for our lives. They completely intended to kill us. Sure Alphinoud and Alise may have been nice political prisoners being the Grand Children of Louisuox and heirs to one of the Sharlyan noble families. But Minfilia is an Alamihgan Refugee who changed her name to avoid the Empire, Thancred is an Ex-Rouge, Yda and Papalymo are relatively unknown in Ul'dah as is Y'shtola.

So besides The WoL and the Twins they had no reason to keep any one else alive. And despite the fact that we're Godslaying Warriors of Light we could still be outnumbered and over run. Sure we can stop a primal but could we fight ALL OF THEM at one time? Answer... No. So a few hundred crystal braves and a few THOUSAND Brass Blades would have easily over run the WoL, an Ex-Rouge, a punch happy blond chick, and two "Weirdo Scholars". Especially since Minfilia was kinda limited on her fighting abilities and Roubahn was literally dis-armed just minutes before hand.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

And the real murder is the king of Uldah and can do whatever he wants, for example invite the empire.

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I hate to be "That guy" but Offically, Lolorito is not the Sultan, as far as the public knows Nanamo is alive but ill and the incumbent monarch.
Unoffically he isn't the sultan, he welds as much power as he ever has in the syndicate minus Teledji's influence (which would of cost him power, not gained it.), and he hasn't got any legal royal claim to the throne in any way at all.

The whole vial scene was BS anyway...

Many people know of it, we have for sure talked about it with much more then just Momo. If we don't carry around our weapons, we will for sure also not take the vial with us, why should we?
Then we had a meeting with the Sultana. No one would or could poison a wine with such a big vial that way. How?

It makes no sense at all.

U.S. trials? I really would not want an U.S. trial. You end up in a prison on Cuba there or killed by a drone...

But Uldah is no big country. It's a small city state. Things does not work like that there. They can't just make us vanish. We are to well known in all three city states and important for their defense. If we would be a peon, sure, who cares. But to just kill the WoL - this would be a political desaster, because the other city states would not simply accept this like that. The State Companies would not just accept it. The people would not just accept it. A dead Monetarian? Who would care? They are important because of their money - and this money is still there. A dead WoL? It's like in Gladiator. You can't just kill the hero of the colloseum. And we are far, far more than that. Hundreds and thousands own their lifes to us. Dead Sultana, dead WoL and Lolo suddenly in charge? THAT would be an obvious coup and civil war. Dead Sultana and dead Lolo leading to a power vacuum? Happens. Since the WoL will not be even close to fill this power vacuum, it's a completely different scenario.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Uuuuh, I'll let you in on a secret. They had no intention of putting us on trial. They were going to "Detain Us" and then take us out in the middle of the Sangolli and kill us where no one would find us.

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Would be hard to explain this, no? And if they are really that brutal: THAT would be the main reason to NOT run. They are fascists. We just let fascists come to power in Uldah. GREAT! What do you think this people would do now, if this would be real?

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I hate to be "That guy" but Offically, Lolorito is not the Sultan, as far as the public knows Nanamo is alive but ill and the incumbent monarch

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What's the difference? He's in power now. He can (almost) do what he wanst. There is no one who can hinder him. The Sultana IS dead. Raubahn IS imprisoned. Since they get so easily away with all this, it would be even easier to also get the new Lala commander imprisoned for treason. He is Raubahn's "son", no?

The throne is abandoned. And the dead Sultana is his puppet.

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When few know what actually happened, those few could EASILY twist the telling of events in a given direction. Earth history is plenty proof of this. There were Brass Blades in the vicinity - if you killed Lolorito and Ilberd, every Brass Blade under their payroll, and some of those that aren't (because orders are orders), is going to come after you. There would be undeniable proof of your wrongdoing, if you were even able to walk out of that situation in one piece - which, let's face it, even the almighty Warrior of Light can't hold off hundreds or thousands of enemies by him/herself. If even one of those Blades was left alive, he'd be able to spread the information of not only suspected regicide, but confirmed murder of a government official and every single guard you've killed, which would completely shatter your reputation among the smallfolk. On the other hand, if you left a massive trail of bodies, that's more or less the same effect.

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*laughs* Yeah, sure, because anyone would trust these guys, who are known to be corrupt. And of course those loyal sell sword would risk their lifes for... ah, yes, nothing. Nobody would give them anything for that, they would just risk their life for nothing.

Hunders of thousands? What are you talking about? There are not hundreds of thousands Brass Blades. And most of them will be just like cops. Maybe corrupt, but for sure mostly care for the next pay check. What do you think the Brass Blades are?

And hell, even if: Let that be the reason we have to flee. That would at least be acceptable. We save the people and now some mercenaries hunt us. Would be soooo much better. But it is not. The story is the story. It's not like they will change it, no matter what I or anyone else is writing here.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

The whole vial scene was BS anyway...

Many people know of it, we have for sure talked about it with much more then just Momo. If we don't carry around our weapons, we will for sure also not take the vial with us, why should we?
Then we had a meeting with the Sultana. No one would or could poison a wine with such a big vial that way. How?

It makes no sense at all.

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The whole point of having us run that "quick errand" was entirely that Momodi was the only person (besides Laurentius) who knew about it. Momodi can't testify we didn't know what was in it, and it was a rushed errand before the feast so it's unlikely we really talked to anyone else about it.

It wasn't a particularly big vial either. They probably didn't do a full body search for just that reason; they wanted us to have it. We weren't allowed to keep our weapons because that would raise the question of why we didn't just kill her with those (it's fairly clear Nanamo was never trained in any type of combat ability). They had to make it look like the only way we could have killed Nanamo was with the poison, without eyewitnesses to disprove that possibility, which is exactly what they got.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Never said we should slaughter the Brass, for what? Why do people always think of slaughtering the Brass? I dont't get it.
We should have slaughtered Ilberd and Lolo. Who should accuse after after they are gone? Raubahn?

But even without: Just staying for a trial. Really would like to see, how Lolo tries to convince the people, that we have killed the Sultana so he can take over Uldah. :o


They would be dead. How would this help them?

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They weren't The sole people in that room, and aren't the only heads on the beast. With that many witnesses and with no proof of innocence, people are going to lean in favor of the accusers.

Also, how would you hide killing politicians at a banquet? How COULD you have the moment to think of attacking Lolorito after Raubahn asks you to run?

Heroics and bloodlust aren't going to solve as large of a plot as this. Again, how is slaughtering people once Raubahn frees us change the situation in our favor?

The WoL could not do anything to improve the situation; we are not as badass as we think.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The whole point of having us run that "quick errand" was entirely that Momodi was the only person (besides Laurentius) who knew about it. Momodi can't testify we didn't know what was in it, and it was a rushed errand before the feast so it's unlikely we really talked to anyone else about it.

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Who says this? We could have talked to so many people about it. And who said that I took the vial with me? I would not. Why should I? It's an empty vial I surely don't carry around with me to such a meeting, even less when I don't know what's in it. Could be anything. Even poison!

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

They weren't The sole people in that room, and aren't the only heads on the beast. With that many witnesses and with no proof of innocence, people are going to lean in favor of the accusers.

Also, how would you hide killing politicians at a banquet? How COULD you have the moment to think of attacking Lolorito after Raubahn asks you to run?

Heroics and bloodlust aren't going to solve as large of a plot as this. Again, how is slaughtering people once Raubahn frees us change the situation in our favor?

The WoL could not do anything to improve the situation; we are not as badass as we think.

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Why hiding? They killed the Sultana. Reason enough to kill them. Who should prove the opposite? How hide killing the leader of the land at a banquet? As said: you people just don't want to think about it. That's the main problem. You don't even care about what can happen now. Sure, it's just a game, who cares. It's not like we care, that we already slaughtered thousands of people...

But well, that's not the point of this thread. If you don't even try to think about all the devastating possibilities and simple believe in good faith everything what you were served... pointless.

We all were forced to let fascists gain power in Uldah. Some people don't like that, other say, that's cool, totally makes sense and was the only right thing. Whatever...

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

What's the difference? He's in power now. He can (almost) do what he wanst. There is no one who can hinder him. The Sultana IS dead. Raubahn IS imprisoned. Since they get so easily away with all this, it would be even easier to also get the new Lala commander imprisoned for treason. He is Raubahn's "son", no?

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Hes not in power, he may pull strings with a dead puppet but he has the rest of the syndicate to deal with, and not all of them agree with him, and some of them are very powerful (Godbert among others). He hasn't even got any evidence on Pipin, whom now controls the flames, flat out arresting Pipin without actual cause would get the rest of the syndicate on him and a large army of flames. The only reason Raubahn isn't on the syndicate right now was he commited murder infront of a international audience.

Does not change the fact that the WoL was found alone with a dead sultana, and has no proof of innocence to challenge the claims. They're obviously false to some npcs, but there is no way for the WoL to have convinced the public that you didn't kill her. Not in that short span of time. No one was going to step up in your defense that isn't already being subjected to investigation, either; you won't see Kann-E or Merl helping because that could mean war with Ul'dah.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Who says this? We could have talked to so many people about it. And who said that I took the vial with me? I would not. Why should I? It's an empty vial I surely don't carry around with me to such a meeting, even less when I don't know what's in it. Could be anything. Even poison!

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And I could have sat around, gotten a few Alexandrite, maybe played a game of b-ball or two at the Gold Saucer. From the storyline's perspective we didn't bother telling anyone because we were rushed and didn't think it was important, so we took it with us. That's all there is to it.

He's part of this Syndicate (which now got exactly three other guys left...), and this Syndicate is actually pretty much slaughtering all the consortiums and that in mere days, as a merchant in Uldah is directly telling us. So obviously the Syndicate got no problem with all this. I don't know if Godbert knows of this - or simply does not care, because he is somewhere else, hunting monsters to make trinkets out of them.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

And I could have sat around, gotten a few Alexandrite, maybe played a game of b-ball or two at the Gold Saucer. From the storyline's perspective we didn't bother telling anyone because we were rushed and didn't think it was important, so we took it with us. That's all there is to it.

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The whole scene smelled. Someone wants to meet us out in nowhere, is not there, just a vial and suddenly one of the blue jackets is showing up, far offside the streets. No, I would for sure not carry something like that around with me. I would have given it to someone to check it. As said, there could be anything in it. Even poison...

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

The whole scene smelled. Someone wants to meet us out in nowhere, is not there, just a vial and suddenly one of the blue jackets is showing up, far offside the streets. No, I would for sure not carry something like that around with me. I would have given it to someone to check it. As said, there could be anything in it. Even poison...

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I thought something was fishy, though at first not so much since it was Alianne who called you out. I figured maybe she was on Riol's side and helping to unravel the conspiracy, and felt she might have been assassinated en route like Wilred. Laurentius showing up instead was the first sign something was seriously wrong. Momodi telling me not to worry about the vial made me uneasy. Then when the Sultana picked up her goblet I connected the dots in the real world fast enough to tell her not to drink it. My character didn't figure it out until Nanamo was choking though, and by then it was too late.

Could have given it to Severian at the Alchemists' Guild, but wouldn't have gotten a thorough analysis for some time (probably) and again, we were rushed in-story.

The PC got duped and used by Lolorito, end of story. Just accept it.

I honestly called what happened as soon as Laurentis was walking away. But to be honest I've seen it so many times in stories it was an obvious plot to me. However going from the Character's point of view and such, the WoL was the one who recruited Laurentis, so to them there was no foul play in what was going on especially considering they thought he wanted to turn a new leaf (the whole Benefit of a doubt stuff). They didn't see the looks that we saw from Laurentis. Second of all as I'm so fond of saying quotes and stuff. "Actions speak louder than words" and at this point in time with the WoL not resisting the detaining looks better to the people as opposed to him/her putting up this huge fight or argument. Remember your character did try to deny it from Adeleji however he refused to listen to it. Thirdly, how would you feel if you just watched someone literally choke to death right in front of your eyes. I know I myself would be in such a shock that things would be barely registering to me. With the grand company leaders they can't let themselves be embroiled in the internal affairs of other nations (even if they wanted to and the twelve know that the Admiral was about to until one of her aids had to stop her) that is a bad political move on their part and can harm more than help the whole Alliance.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Would be hard to explain this, no? And if they are really that brutal: THAT would be the main reason to NOT run. They are fascists. We just let fascists come to power in Uldah. GREAT! What do you think this people would do now, if this would be real?

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The Syndicate have been in charge longer than Nanamo was ever Sultana. THEY actually run the place. The Blades are the Privet Army of Lord Lolorito while the Crystal Braves were in the back pocket of Taledji Adaledji almost from the start until Adaledji died. So next in line for the Braves is, Naturally, Lolorito who may or may not have been pulling Adaledji's strings.

And how would a group of foreigners look if they disappeared after being accused of crimes? As I said the WoL and The Leveilleur twins would be the only ones worth imprisoning. The others are all foreigners of one type or another that would not be missed. Plus their disappearance before their "Trial" would discredit The WoL with accusations of them escaping and fleeing the nation like cowards. When in reality their rotting corpses would be in the gut of a Giant Sand Worm some where in South Thanalan,


This is how the Syndicate has always operated. Oh and their is waaaay more than three of them. The General and Adaledji may not be Syndicate any more but there were a half dozen others besides them and Lolorito. Including Godbert Manderville. So it seems to me you really haven't been in Ul'dah very long because this is business as usual there. Only thing unusual is that the Sultana is dead. And I can asure you a man like lolorito had no desire to be a king when he's far more powerful from the shadows.

And they aren't facists by any means. They are capitalists in the darkest and most sinister form. What Lolorito is, is known as a Machiavellian, one whom only sees others in monetary value. And to him Nanamo, the scions, and the WoL had become liabilities instead of assets. Adaledji may have been the next one on his list but Adaledji's mouth took care of that for Lolorito.

speaking of adeleji's death as a side note... was I the only one who started screaming out "YES!" repeatedly when Raubahn did the deed?

on another side note... heh... Thancred took the proverbial "arrow to the knee" literally

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Originally Posted by Rannie

speaking of adeleji's death as a side note... was I the only one who started screaming out "YES!" repeatedly when Raubahn did the deed?

on another side note... heh... Thancred took the proverbial "arrow to the knee" literally

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I KNOW RIGHT!! On both accounts. the General sarted seeing red and I was like "Oh he's gonna get it now!!! Kill That Midget Bastard Rauban!!!!" and then I saw Thancred get shot and was like "Well looks like he finally took an arrow to the knee. Just not how he would have liked". Imagine if he lived afterwards that we're in 4.0 or something and he's retired. He sees a new rectue and go "I was a Scion once, like you, then I took an Arrow to the Knee".