Matriarchal societies and Keepers of the Moon

Ok, so we know Keeper societies are matriachal, mostly from that naming convention thread at the top of the forum. Though apparently they operate in small units, which adds a layer of complexity but I'll mostly try to avoid that for this post.

A friend pointed out to me a tendency that I've noticed myself, however. Among those that create backgrounds for their characters and even some interpretations outside of backstories, there seems to be this tendency to believe this means that Male Keepers of the Moon (in a traditional unit) have very little freedom/autonomy. Implications of abuse are not uncommon.

In short, it's not just a matriarchy, but one taken to an extreme. I do recognize that extremes often make for better storytelling.

I am just wondering if this is supported/validated by any official source, or if this is just players/RPers/Lore-fans going their own way?

Honestly I'm curious myself to know more about Keeper of the Moon society as a whole. More is known about Seekers then is known about Keepers at this point. Often times with this, those that make Keepers at least in the role playing perspective, I think they're unsure how to really go about making a story outside of something along the lines of the original post. Not much is known about the Moon kitties sadly. =/

With that, I too am rather curious about the same as the original poster has posted.

From what I recall of the archer quests, Keepers were in contention with the elezen in the Twelveswood for who is the better hunter in the wood. Also, Pawah kept calling your Keeper buddy "sister" despite the fact that they were enemies, like you would call a guy your brotha. The group of females that followed Pawah are referred to as "litters" by your Keeper partner.

I don't outright recall anything saying much about it to be honest. I know there was a lot of talk about what the society would be like, and there were points raised to both the abusive side and to the protective/loving side as well.

With Keeper groups being more family based as opposed to tribe based I would think there would be a lot of variation and it all depends on what the matriarch of each family unit would be like.

From what I've read the units tend to be from immediate family to extended family but not beyond. Blood relations, primarily.

The Past Is a Story We Never Tell
Moogle quest

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The men of the Keepers of the Moon live a wanderer's life, for they are at their best in small doses. Women and children keep the hearth, ply various trades, and accept game and visits from the menfolk.

But King Poach(coerl king) denies women this gods-given rule over matters of family. He forces women to live with him, forbids them to see their sisters, mothers, aunts. Most unnaturally, they lie with him and him alone!

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Based on this quote, it seems like men aren't really abused. But instead are "encouraged" out of the clan mostly due to a clash of personalities? Almost similar how elephants do it: adolescent males get too rowdy/wild are more or less forced out due to it.

Prior to this revelation, it was thought that seeker males were kept and traded among each clan as a sex slave/breeder since males are so very rare. And it doesn't help that one FATE referred to one as a "breeding male"

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Originally Posted by Caraway

I don't outright recall anything saying much about it to be honest. I know there was a lot of talk about what the society would be like, and there were points raised to both the abusive side and to the protective/loving side as well.

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There's another angle both of those positions are missing, however. As an example... consider a family in today's society, which most would say still tends to be a bit patriarchal in its norms. Say both the mother and father in this family work professionally, but the father has a greater income. Until, that is, an unfavorable market leads to the father being laid off and so becoming unemployed. Now the power dynamic in this family has shifted ever so slightly. The mother is now the primary provider. A little more matriarchal, you could say.

Nonetheless, in our society both individuals are typically going to have high levels of autonomy. Before and after the change.

Back to Keepers, everything I've read from players seems to suggest that, contrary to the above example... people from both positions you've mentioned... suggests a low level of autonomy. That is, that males would typically have their lives more or less run for them, regardless of how well intentioned (or not) that might be.

Maybe that's correct, but I'm questioning it. I'm wondering, basically, if that assumption is speculation, or if it's founded on any canon lore we've seen.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

With Keeper groups being more family based as opposed to tribe based I would think there would be a lot of variation and it all depends on what the matriarch of each family unit would be like.

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Yeah, I know there could easily be some or a lot of variation from unit to unit here. Tendencies, though. Just as players tend to assume the position I've described previously.

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Originally Posted by myahele

Based on this quote, it seems like men aren't really abused. But instead are "encouraged" out of the clan mostly due to a clash of personalities? Almost similar how elephants do it: adolescent males get too rowdy/wild are more or less forced out due to it.

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yeah, the abuse thing just seems to be an innovation by RPers. That quote, however, sheds a lot of light on it. Thanks for sharing!

So the men just aren't around most of the time, it seems...

I've not found anything in game that supports (or brings up) abuse to males in particular as a norm within Keeper society. The only norm with males that I have seen is that they live as wanderers and essentially sojourn for much of it, barring some particular individuals. In that respect, they have as much freedom as one can interpret, as long as they don't over-stay their welcome I suppose.

The things that happen during their stay seems to be left up to the imagination. As varied as family units can be, there are probably cases of abuse as there are cases of warm and loving families; which is the norm is up in the air, but most of the abuse I've seen directed at any Keeper were from individuals outside of the race.

With little information, we are free to make conjecture, but on the flip-side it will remain conjecture. Very interesting to think and talk about though!

I couldn't help but notice is that Keeper males aren't given names in the same way as Seeker males. They take the mother's first and last name, and simply add a numeric suffix to the first name, like some sort of serial number. While there may or may not be any physical abuse, their very naming conventions deny males an individual identity, so a desire to break from that is understandable. "King Poach" probably refuses to use his Keeper name for that very reason.

Of course, the female Keepers who talk about it describe the arrangement as mutually beneficial, so I guess their understanding is that guys are free to bone whoever they want, and it's not a big deal so long as they get kids out of it now and then.

The only "good" Keeper male we've met is the guy from the Wanderer's Palace HM quest, and he was chased out of his hometown. With as few males as there seem to be, I can't imagine one not wanting to lay with women as something that would go over that well in their society.

Keeper males have their own freedoms, however they are not quite the same as females. Males are allowed to do what they want when it comes to their own lives, but it's clear the fundamental rules of family have the female in charge. Males are more or less there so family lines continue to exist (why they are referred to as "breeding males" in the one levequest). They are not there to raise the children, feed the family, or there to contribute to society other than while he is being housed (pulling his own weigh). Once the female feels enough children have been had, the male goes on his merry way to give children to another female or just live out his life.

You can't look at Miqo'te life through human eyes or with human resonimg because it is a design alien to humans. For Keepers, there is no such thing as a "father" in a child's life. In fact, children probably never know who their blood-father ever is. Part of this is due to the obscure male:female ratio of Miqo'te genetics, but part may also have to do with male personality types. Given that the few males we do know endes up as villains, it's likely males aren't genetically designed to be the "caring" type. In fact, they probably are either extremely indifferent towards their fellow Miq'te, or may even be prone to aggression (also supports why females prefer to run the family). Males may also know this and acknowledge their genetic makers that make them prone to aggressive tendencies, and voluntarily isolate themselves for the good of society.

Also from a "Tribal Rite" pov a male seeker must present a potential mate/clan things they've hunted in order to be let in. Doing so shows alot of things:

A. It shows that you have skills survive on you own = not weak
B. Its a polite thing to do and shows you're not a freeloader or will steal from them

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Originally Posted by Velox

You can't look at Miqo'te life through human eyes or with human resonimg because it is a design alien to humans.

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This has been brought up before, but even the possibly-part-cat Miqo'te are considered "human" in Eorzea, so trying to use "they're not human" as the basis for an argument doesn't really work. (It's an interesting interpretation aside from that, though.)

For some reason people tend to assume a 'matriarchal' society automatically means devaluing/abuse of males. If you look to real life examples of such cultures that still exist today like the Mosuo, however, they are often more egalitarian than anything.

In regards to the mating/family habits of Moon males, I kind of see similarities between the Mosuo's 'walking marriage' tradition, with Moon males just being temporary residents in villages and mostly nomadic, instead of permanent residents with their own homes. In other words, if a female Moon likes a male that she meets, they can temporarily become a couple and then when the male overstays his welcome or decides to move on, it's considered no big deal and the sisters/aunts of the female help raise any children that result. There is no expectation of any permanent connection between a female and male, and all children are considered the responsibility of the female's side of the family.

The Mosuo, however, do not exclude males from childcare (only instead of the biological father it's older brothers/uncles who are the male role models for a child), so perhaps with Moons it's the same way and a father or male relative will stay around and help with things until a child is of a certain age. With Moons I don't think we really know if male relatives ever regularly return to their families for visits or if once they leave home they are permanent nomads. It would make sense to me, that they don't sever all ties to their mothers/sisters/aunts, because family is family and it doesn't seem natural that such bonds would stop being respected just because a male Moon grows up.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

This has been brought up before, but even the possibly-part-cat Miqo'te are considered "human" in Eorzea, so trying to use "they're not human" as the basis for an argument doesn't really work. (It's an interesting interpretation aside from that, though.)

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I didn't say they weren't human. :P

I'm arguing that their way of life can not be justified using "human" (Earth) ideology. There are very few cultures that have the concept of a "breeding male" in them. Also humans have a roughly 50:50 split with male/female birthrates. For Miqo'te, biologically and genetically, polygamy would be necessary in such a society in order to keep a species from dying out.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Keeper males have their own freedoms, however they are not quite the same as females. Males are allowed to do what they want when it comes to their own lives, but it's clear the fundamental rules of family have the female in charge. Males are more or less there so family lines continue to exist (why they are referred to as "breeding males" in the one levequest). They are not there to raise the children, feed the family, or there to contribute to society other than while he is being housed (pulling his own weigh). Once the female feels enough children have been had, the male goes on his merry way to give children to another female or just live out his life.

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Originally Posted by Velox

You can't look at Miqo'te life through human eyes or with human resonimg because it is a design alien to humans. For Keepers, there is no such thing as a "father" in a child's life. In fact, children probably never know who their blood-father ever is. Part of this is due to the obscure male:female ratio of Miqo'te genetics, but part may also have to do with male personality types. Given that the few males we do know endes up as villains, it's likely males aren't genetically designed to be the "caring" type. In fact, they probably are either extremely indifferent towards their fellow Miq'te, or may even be prone to aggression (also supports why females prefer to run the family). Males may also know this and acknowledge their genetic makers that make them prone to aggressive tendencies, and voluntarily isolate themselves for the good of society.

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Nothing personal, but these are the sorts of hypotheses I'm trying to avoid in this thread. Unless genetic predispositions et al are backed up by an official source somewhere..?

You do have a point about comparisons... however, my goal with that example wasn't to draw a 1:1 to RL earth society. Besides the things you point out, we don't have fantasy magic and many other things. It was just an example to show how a female can have the ultimate authority over a household, but that doesn't necessarily detract from the male and the female may never even choose to exercise that power.

Nialle articulated it better than I did. A lot of people (like almost everyone it seems) seem to assume that 'matriarchal' = devaluing of males.

In my original post, I was just wondering if the (often extreme) devaluing of males was supported canonly. From the responses so far, it seems the answer is 'no' and males function with a high level of autonomy.

Nialle, thank you for sharing those links, and thank you to everyone else for participating and sharing your sources and thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Nothing personal, but these are the sorts of hypotheses I'm trying to avoid in this thread. Unless genetic predispositions et al are backed up by an official source somewhere..?

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The Miqo'te naming lore thread specifically states that more females are born to the race than males.

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Originally Posted by RickiFake02

The Miqo'te naming lore thread specifically states that more females are born to the race than males.

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He means genetic influences on personality.

Miqo'te aren't mindless animals, they're "human," sapient beings capable of asking "why?" That two of the three male Keepers we've met are mavericks acting in defiance of tradition, and the third is Nazha'a, it's really no wonder RPers imagine Keeper males as abused or mistreated, whatever the facts.

Unlike the U tribe, we don't have any lore-perfect Keeper males standing around to talk sex with us (because that would be awkward), so people tend to extrapolate from the examples given, which aren't pretty. (Well, some are, but not as examples.)

What Three male keepers have we met? The only two I can even recall are the one from the beat tribe quests and the Coeurl King. The Couerl King Moogle quest actually explained the lore pretty well. The males are wanderers and don't stay in one place, which is why the women pretty much run the show.

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Originally Posted by RickiFake02

What Three male keepers have we met?

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One of the NPCs from the Wanderer's Palace HM quest is a male Keeper. Only slightly more important than that nameless Crystal Brave, but his circumstances contribute to the topic at hand.

My point is: the only exploration of the role of males in Keeper society we've seen so far has been through counterexample. Maybe one day we'll get a story about a little Keeper girl meeting her dad for the first time, but until then, we've only seen crazies and rulebreakers.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

One of the NPCs from the Wanderer's Palace HM quest is a male Keeper. Only slightly more important than that nameless Crystal Brave, but his circumstances contribute to the topic at hand.

My point is: the only exploration of the role of males in Keeper society we've seen so far has been through counterexample. Maybe one day we'll get a story about a little Keeper girl meeting her dad for the first time, but until then, we've only seen crazies and rulebreakers.

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True, but I felt like the Coeurlclaw King Moogle quest still did a decent job of explaining how Keeper society is supposed to function.

In addition, I recall the FATE flavor text for the coeurl king fight says it's unusual that one male would have a harem of female Keepers.

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

In addition, I recall the FATE flavor text for the coeurl king fight says it's unusual that one male would have a harem of female Keepers.

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It's unusual because they aren't a typical Keeper 'tribe,' it's a cult of personality. The Coeurl King is essentially a 'cult' leader and all of the Keeper women are dependent on him, since a membership requirement of the Coeurlclaws requires that they kill a Wood Wailer, whether intentionally or otherwise.

They have nowhere else to turn; in a country already know for it's xenophobia and implicit racism against non-Elezen and non-Hyur, as well as the arbitrary nature of a fair amount of their punishments (regardless of the crime, Gridanian society isn't that well known for considering 'context' in their criminal cases, especially against perceived 'outsiders'); the Coeurl King provides 'protection' and a place for these essentially exiled women to belong.

That said, he's still a douche.

I'd wager that many of the people that RP abuse of Keeper males are the same people that roleplayed their Teir'Dal in EQ as drow. Keepers even look like drow/dark elves. Of course, in EQ, the Teir'Dal weren't even close to drow. They worshipped a male god, for example. That didn't stop people from roleplaying like Neriak was Menzoberranzan.

I figure it's much the same. FR drow are pretty much the real lone example of a matriarchy in popular fantasy literature. There just hasn't been a real positive example of a matriarchy that I can think of. People just take the bad stuff that patriarchies have done in the past and switch roles.